Understanding Gnosticism; or, a quest for accurate knowledge

reply to post by wildtimes


Hello. This is a subject I'm also very interested in. I do believe no matter what the source everything points back to Jesus needs to be the center of our lives. Which actually inspired me to start my search of all gnostic information. I want every side of every story to better know his life. I can tell you that we as Masons do hold some secret information about a few religions. We accept people of all faiths so any information regarding Jesus would be held by Masons who are a part of a Yorkshire Rite appended body. I'm oath sworn to not say anything the information is about & I know there's a lot of "ask me anything" people out there, but I'm just not one. I take swears, oaths, & even simple promises very seriously. I hate when people I trust in my personal life break a promise to me so I won't break my promise to them. Here's what I can say without breaking my oath though. To keep our knowledge secret it's been kept as verbal tradition, & although no one has said this explicitly to me I fear anything kept verbally is doomed to slowly be eaten alive by errors & get paraphrased when parts are forgotten. That's why I've been trying to find any little bit of evidence to back up every Masonic story & fix any errors I can find for my brothers & for honor of our Fraternity. I believe some gnostic sources may have the information I'm looking for. Any source you post I can tell you without a doubt I'll be reading in a heartbeat.

reply to post by wildtimes


Tried reading gnostic stuff, the words taste like paganism to me. All this "secret" knowledge is baloney. Jesus was about exposing secrets. If you want secrets join the R.C.C., they teach the clergy and the jesuits gnostic stuff and give the goyim masses the watered down version of their paganism to pacify the laity so they will not rebel.

Case in point, in the R.C.C. for the 1700 years the R.C.C. was created it had been a mortal sin for catholics to read the bible up until 1962.

You have to keep in mind that when christianity came into being the pagan religions were still very much dominant in the world and i suspect any gnostic texts that came out of Alexandria in Egypt (Nagh Hammadi)because the christians in that time period burned down the great library in egypt because it was full of pagan writings of the pharonic religions that were trying to blend christianity with paganism and the nagh hammadi was one of the manuscripts that escaped.

For instance early christians refused to have anything to do with any festival or holy day (holiday) that had anything to do with paganism. Tertullian chronicaled that early christians refused to participate in the Roman holiday Saturnalia in which they would cut down fir trees and bring them into their homes and decorate them with candles, place wreaths made of greenery on their doors, and exchange gifts on the 25th of december. In otherwords early christians didn't participate in "christmas" which Saturnalia was later renamed when Constantine legalized "pagan christianity". Tertullian also wrote that early christians did not celebrate the birth of the Messiah.

Most people that call themselves christians today do not even know they are practicing a bastardized hybrid version of christianity and paganism and this is where the great delusion comes in so that they will believe the lie and perish. The truth is right now we are in the great falling away, those people think they are obeying Yahweh and they are not. My wake up call came a few months ago and i was horrified at the things i came to realize. You can't serve Yahweh and serve pagan gods at the same time, he will not have it.

reply to post by ThirdDegree

Hello. This is a subject I'm also very interested in. I do believe no matter what the source everything points back to Jesus needs to be the center of our lives. Which actually inspired me to start my search of all gnostic information. I want every side of every story to better know his life. I can tell you that we as Masons do hold some secret information about a few religions.

Hi, and welcome; we'll be searching simultaneously, it appears. Just this morning I read this excerpt from Elaine Pagel's Gnostic Gospels, c1979, when the NH texts were just first available translated. www.gnosis.org...

Since we are now 30+ years later with study and examination,it is reasonable to assess the more current translations and the developed thoughts of those who have been doing so for all that while.

Rather than posting all day like a chat room, this thread will be moving more slowly (at least my part in it) as I spend time reading and then posting. I hope this doesn't mean everyone drops out for boredom....but I'll hang in here.

Thanks for responding, and for your interest!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Tried reading gnostic stuff, the words taste like paganism to me. All this "secret" knowledge is baloney. Jesus was about exposing secrets. If you want secrets join the R.C.C., they teach the clergy and the jesuits gnostic stuff and give the goyim masses the watered down version of their paganism to pacify the laity so they will not rebel.

Case in point, in the R.C.C. for the 1700 years the R.C.C. was created it had been a mortal sin for catholics to read the bible up until 1962.

What do you mean, you "tried"? You glanced at the first paragraph and said "rubbish!", or you read it and didn't understand it? Or do you mean you tried reading to learn more about it, and then dismissed it due to your preconceived "correctness"? Or you only had an hour, so you skimmed the contents and went on the the next "stuff" in a frantic search for something to grab onto?

I know you are down on the Roman Catholic Church (so am I), but you also tend to exaggerate things about it, which indicates you really don't know as much as you think you do.
Yes, they give the watered down version to the lay people, and reserve the highest secrets for themselves; which is a spiritual-teaching-method done by LOTS of different organizations.

Also, your claim of the mortal sin attached to reading the bible is misleading. Here is a better, more thorough explanation of the 'ban' placed by the RCC tyrants: www.reformedonline.com...

The Bible emphatically condemns the use of tradition as a source of authority because whenever tradition is set up alongside of Scripture, it eventually is placed above Scripture, and is then used to interpret Scripture. This is exactly what happened with Judaism in the days of Christ, and unfortunately what happened in the Roman Catholic Church: tradition and ritual became so important that it became necessary to keep the Bible away from the people. In fact, for centuries it was a mortal sin to possess and read the Bible in one’s own native tongue. The council of Valencia (1229), the Council of Trent (1545) and Pope Clement XI (1713) all condemned letting people have the Bible in their own language and reading it for themselves. Priests are quick to point out that Pope Leo XIII (1893) did urge people to read the Bible. But the Bible he referred to was the Latin Vulgate which virtually no one but priests could understand! Fortunately, in the twentieth century the “unchanging church” has once again changed her mind and allowed the laity to have the Bible in their own language. But Roman Catholics are only allowed to read church-approved Bibles which have explanations of “difficult” texts underneath each page by an authorized theologian.

So, for a thousand years, from the early sixth century to the sixteenth century, while the Roman Church held sway, the Bible remained a closed book. The Roman Church, instead of being a kingdom of light, became a kingdom of darkness, promoting ignorance and superstition and holding the people in bondage.

Rome’s traditional policy of seeking to limit the circulation of the Bible and of anathematizing or destroying all copies that are not annotated with her distinctive doctrines shows that she is really afraid of it. She is opposed to it because it is opposed to her. The plain fact is that she cannot hold her people when they become spiritually enlightened and discover that her distinctive doctrines are merely man made inventions. [5]

How anyone nowadays can accept the "officially approved" version of the RCC Bible translation and interpretations, in this day and age of instant research, is really beyond me; particularly on a conspiracy theory forum!

I just wonder how long it will take before there exists, finally, a consensus. I am certain, absolutely (as much as I can be as a human), that Jesus Christ did NOT want 42,000+ different "versions", and all the competition and self-righteous nonsense of people pushing and shoving each other for "falsely claiming you are a Christian."
!!
Preposterous!
Well, maybe you'll at least follow along and not just come busting in with your flame-thrower every few minutes. I hope.

reply to post by wildtimes


What enochwasright might be saying is.. with an open mind you might go back to the bible, specifically the gospels, and see that it may not be all that different from the Nag. It just depends on what kind of goggles you might have on when you read the bible.

What's the main message? Truth is Reality is Love is God. Nothing else exists. The false reality is THE paradox. To break down the paradox and uncover the truth, Truth itself (God) manifested itself as itself (Jesus) in the false reality to reveal what is True. In doing so the story is the absolute PERFECT analogy for the "problem" and solution. But it's not just an analogy, it is the literal conduit between what is real and what is not. Jesus is the way. The entire history/story of man is leading to Truth, the end of time. Humankind's/Man's history and A man's(your) history are a fractal. Your own awakening is a mirror of the unfolding of humankind's awakening.

Gnosis might encourage the absolute truth a bit more over the STORY. But this theme comes through in the bible as well. The bible is littered with the analogy of following the word over the letter. Believing the Truth that Jesus is rather than in Jesus the man the story. But also waking up to Reality (the kingdom) by recognizing the Truth in the story through the analogy of Jesus man/God.

If you trouble yourself with the validity of the story of man/Jesus you risk your own salvation. Or rather you live in time/delusion outside the kingdom. This is ultimately what Jesus taught. Truth manifested itself in a way that people were expecting and most likely identify with. What's the best way for God to tell people what is Real? By becoming a man with a mouth. There is a reason why Jesus is likely the most talked about human in the world.

The nag reveals some different angles to the story for people who are at risk of getting caught up in Jesus the man, the story, rather than Jesus the Truth/God. It's more direct in it's language. "I am not a man. Nothing truly exists but Truth. I am Truth. I am God and the part of you that can hear this is Me- God". I think he also makes it more clear that Truth pierces the false reality in a specific way. As a man who is fully identified with Truth, so as to demonstrate Reality inside non-Reality. Again, most spiritual and religious stories come from recognizing everything that is not true as an analogy or reflection of what is True. Jesus is Truth looking in the mirror and saying hi to it's reflection. We have to look beyond the reflection and see ourselves as Truth making the reflection. Jesus demonstrated this. That is why he is the way.

reply to post by jmdewey60

+ Stephan A. Hoeller (Tau Stephanus, Gnostic Bishop)

Is the author of that part that was "lifted".
He's the Ecclesia Gnostica bishop for this country, and has been for decades. Seems he's the go-to guy for the skinny on modern Gnostic Christianity. So, I'd say he's a leading authority in the field; but that is not to say he is infallible. So far he seems articulate, clear, and interested in sharing the information. Doesn't mean he isn't withholding other secrets, though.

One thing he pointed out was that his church offers the sacrament to ANYONE who wants it:

The English Gnostic transmission, while less involved in Masonic and related concerns still always welcomed to its altars those who were sincerely desirous of receiving the sacraments. In the Los Angeles Gnostic community, which the present writer has been leading for almost forty years, we have offered sacramental refuge not only to committed Gnostics, but in addition to Kabbalists, Theosophists, Wiccans and Magicians and also to traditionalist Roman Catholics, who prefer the Gnostic Mass to the bowdlerised and trivialized Novus Ordo Mass of their own troubled church.

www.gnosis.org...

Grant's book...too bad it's not online. I love reading those dusty old tomes. (I prefer to do so in a very narrow aisle between towering bookshelves that smell of dust, old leather, and paper, but I don't have that library in my living room, and can't go to it in my jammies 30 seconds after I've got my carcass out of bed) Is there a preview online anywhere? I've figured out you can pretty much read the book even by just frequently going to the "preview" or "limited view" sites over a series of visits.

reply to post by rwfresh

Jesus is Truth looking in the mirror and saying hi to it's reflection. We have to look beyond the reflection and see ourselves as Truth making the reflection. Jesus demonstrated this. That is why he is the way.

He demonstrated it, and said that his followers were his equals; that the Truth lies within us all.

EnochWasRight has a manner of rhetoric that I find rather vague, and hard to follow (and he knows this, I've told him before in his previous "lifetime" here ).
What he seems to be saying, to my understanding, is that Love is all.
I have always agreed with this part...where he and I differ is in offering up the Bible -- which has been exhaustively studied and proven to omit parts, change parts, added to, subtracted from, switched around, and very loosely translated by men in power with agendas (like keeping the masses ignorant and well-behaved) -- as the only real resource necessary.

He encourages me to read, while positing that I will simply come back to 'the Bible' as the only source, and implying that I will be spinning my wheels in my search.

EnochWasRight's words have yet to convince me that he is the master, the alpha and omega, and one need look no further than him and his blog and his many, many threads. If nothing else, his efforts are consistent.

I appreciate you taking the time post here, thank you! It sounds like you have some awareness of the Divine Spark, of the Eastern-thought that Gnosticism reflects.

When EWR admitted that the Eastern masters already knew the way, he was getting closer to my "understanding". They not only "knew the way", they recognized Jesus (Issa) as the most gifted of them all, and a perfectly developed soul. Jesus said "you will be like me when you look inside you. What is within me is within you, also, if you will only believe me and accept it, you need look no further.
Notice here I have left out those two little keystrokes i and n....
He said that everyone has the Divine within them, and that we can all achieve the powers and the same level of perfection by following his example and teachings.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Jesus is Truth looking in the mirror and saying hi to it's reflection. We have to look beyond the reflection and see ourselves as Truth making the reflection. Jesus demonstrated this. That is why he is the way.

He demonstrated it, and said that his followers were his equals; that the Truth lies within us all.

EnochWasRight has a manner of rhetoric that I find rather vague, and hard to follow (and he knows this, I've told him before in his previous "lifetime" here

).
What he seems to be saying, to my understanding, is that Love is all.
I have always agreed with this part...where he and I differ is in offering up the Bible -- which has been exhaustively studied and proven to omit parts, change parts, added to, subtracted from, switched around, and very loosely translated by men in power with agendas (like keeping the masses ignorant and well-behaved) -- as the only real resource necessary.

He encourages me to read, while positing that I will simply come back to 'the Bible' as the only source, and implying that I will be spinning my wheels in my search.

EnochWasRight's words have yet to convince me that he is the master, the alpha and omega, and one need look no further than him and his blog and his many, many threads. If nothing else, his efforts are consistent.

I appreciate you taking the time post here, thank you! It sounds like you have some awareness of the Divine Spark, of the Eastern-thought that Gnosticism reflects.

When EWR admitted that the Eastern masters already knew the way, he was getting closer to my "understanding". They not only "knew the way", they recognized Jesus (Issa) as the most gifted of them all, and a perfectly developed soul. Jesus said "you will be like me when you look inside you. What is within me is within you, also, if you will only believe me and accept it, you need look no further.
Notice here I have left out those two little keystrokes i and n....
He said that everyone has the Divine within them, and that we can all achieve the powers and the same level of perfection by following his example and teachings.

But leaving out the "in" is your hang up. I think that is maybe what some other people might point out (I've got plenty of hang ups btw). You are not alone in this hang up. I don't mean it as anything other than a point of direction into understanding what i was saying in my other message.

When Jesus says "you will be like me when you look inside you."

Who do you think he meant when he says "me"? Jesus the man or Jesus the Truth/God? I mean.. the power of this statement is TOTALLY dependent on who was saying it. If i said it it wouldn't mean much.. Big deal.. you can be like me. Another deluded human living in non-reality. But when God says it.. it's like.. WOW! I am not actually a human.. i am not this person.. None of this is real. That is the Truth.

I understand that people don't like the fact that Jesus claims to be God. But what is the nature of this discomfort? The hang up is literally the lynch pin holding back a deeper understanding of oneself as God. The purpose of the Jesus story is to not make God a man.. but for man to truly realize themselves as God. Not just figuratively. But because of ignorance we bring Jesus down to our understanding.

When Truth addresses you it will not claim to be a human with the same "problem" as you. Because if Truth DID do that it would be lying.. and then it wouldn't be the truth. That is what WE do. That is the difference between myself and Jesus.

If you think Jesus is like you and you don't truly associate yourself to the fullest reality of God.. then Jesus doesn't seem very special. But if you open yourself up to the reality and allow yourself to see Jesus as GOD and not a man.. That is the way to "be like" him. To be like him is to actually be Truth.. Not a man who believes he is also God. Not a spark.. But God.

This is the fractal nature of the reality of the Jesus story. Non-existence/non-reality/Maya/Delusion is an analogy of Reality/Truth. The analogy is not the Truth, but the way we realize Truth. This is why Jesus is so popular, so persistent.. so hated and loved and misunderstood. He cannot and should not be avoided on the way to waking up. He is the one that said with total conviction "I am Truth".

Peace!

reply to post by wildtimes

He's the Ecclesia Gnostica bishop for this country . . .

I don't mean to disrespect the person you are quoting but what stands out in your quote looks like what I am reading and I really don't have it figured out yet exactly what Grant is doing. He gives book and chapter numbers from Irenaeus but they don't match up with what I find when I go to his work.
It looks like he combs through that chapter, picking pieces and he applies his own translation so it creates a fingerprint so to speak, where if someone copied it straight off the page, it would be evident where it came from.
Harper seems to be of the hard-core blood-sucking variety of publishers and they basically allow an almost single word preview, where you know that one word is actually used in the book, but you cant read the context. I think it might be safe to copy a single paragraph, just to illustrate the concept.

"(I, I)*There is a perfect pre-existent Aeon,
dwelling in the invisible and unnameable elevations;
this is Pre-Beginning and Forefather and Depth.
He is uncontainable and invisible, eternal and ungenerated,
in quiet and in deep solitude for infinite aeons.
With him is Thought, which is also called Grace and Silence.
Once upon a time, Depth thought of emitting from himself a Beginning of all,
like a seed, and he deposited this projected emmision, as in a womb,
in that Silence who is with him.
Silence received this seed and became pregnant and bore Mind,
which resembled and was equal to him who emitted him.
Mind alone comprehends the magnitude of his Father;
he is called Only- Begotten and Father and Beginning of all.
Along with him, Truth was emitted;
this makes the first Four, the root of all:
Depth and Silence, then Mind and Truth.

*These numbers refer to chapters and sections in Irenaeus as divided by Massuet and printed in Harvey's text"
Grant, page 163, chapter 3, section A. The Pleroma.

You can read the description by Irenaeus of this belief of Valentinus and you see it is completely different. Grant is taking pieces from Irenaeus and rewriting as if it was Valentinus giving a lecture to his disciples.

As a comment on this virtual war on "heretics", What the . . ?
Someone wanting to be poetic about what others only see as dogma . . ?
Really, and burn their books? Thanks a lot.

reply to post by rwfresh

Who do you think he meant when he says "me"? Jesus the man or Jesus the Truth/God? I mean.. the power of this statement is TOTALLY dependent on who was saying it. If i said it it wouldn't mean much.. Big deal.. you can be like me. Another deluded human living in non-reality. But when God says it.. it's like.. WOW! I am not actually a human.. i am not this person.. None of this is real. That is the Truth.

Jesus did not say he was GOD. He said he was son of man, an example of the most highly evolved a soul can be. A graduate of the lessons of life, and a master of the reality of the Divine. But still a man.

I am fine with the theory that he was the finished product...perfectly merged soul and flesh; the two become one;
and I'm even okay with his having been a 'gift' from the Divine, possibly, without having had to get there the mundane way (like we do). So he's teaching that one needs look no further than within; but that one must seek, and continue seeking...that spark, until personally realized. The reunion with the Divine is our ethereal destiny; because we are mortal we cannot emulate the angels or the other beings; so we were offered an example of what we can be, not what they are, and have always been.

The more I read, of what he actually SAID, the more it points in the direction I'm taking here.

reply to post by wildtimes


Notice christians seem to not want you to read gnostic scripture? Have ye got that feeling yet?

It always made me suspicious... they condem their scripture because they're told its heretical, usually without reading it.

The funny thing is they're shooting themselves in the foot... for people that are interested in reading it, their words usually push people to read gnostic scripture even more so.

Understanding Gnosticism; or, a quest for accurate knowledge

We have 'the other bible' of Gnosticism and some Gnostic study guides. Honestly, from what I've been reading, I don't think we'll find 'accurate knowledge' in them. They are just as untrustworthy as anything else written during that time period. They could be fiction or they could be myth or they could be just about anything ....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Understanding Gnosticism; or, a quest for accurate knowledge

We have 'the other bible' of Gnosticism and some Gnostic study guides. Honestly, from what I've been reading, I don't think we'll find 'accurate knowledge' in them. They are just as untrustworthy as anything else written during that time period. They could be fiction or they could be myth or they could be just about anything ....

They also could be the words of Christ passed down as an oral tradition through many generations...

Theres no way to tell... Yes many of the beliefs clash, but gnostic scripture covers things that the bible does not even mention.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Case in point, in the R.C.C. for the 1700 years the R.C.C. was created it had been a mortal sin for catholics to read the bible up until 1962.

:shk: That's so not true. Seriously .. where do you people come up with this stuff?

In fact, just the opposite is true. Catholics are granted an INDULGENCE for a 1/2 hour of reading the bible each day. Do you know what an indulgence is? Its the Catholic church saying that if you do something, it will get you (or someone you wish to give the indulgence to) out of purgatory sooner. They ENCOURAGED bible reading.

And every weekday mass has two bible readings. Every Sunday Mass has three. There were Catholic bibles in print that were printed in the 1600s ... complete with church imprimatur (that's the official seal of approval of the Catholic church .. that it has been looked over and nothing 'against the faith' is in the book).

More ACCURATE Catholic bible info

Originally posted by Akragon
They also could be the words of Christ passed down as an oral tradition through many generations...Theres no way to tell... Yes many of the beliefs clash, but gnostic scripture covers things that the bible does not even mention.

I totally agree with you. There is no way to know. And scripture does say that Christ taught so much that not all the books in the world could hold all the knowledge he taught. So it COULD be .... but I'm not taking the Gnostic as 'gospel' .. ( ha ha )

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Who do you think he meant when he says "me"? Jesus the man or Jesus the Truth/God? I mean.. the power of this statement is TOTALLY dependent on who was saying it. If i said it it wouldn't mean much.. Big deal.. you can be like me. Another deluded human living in non-reality. But when God says it.. it's like.. WOW! I am not actually a human.. i am not this person.. None of this is real. That is the Truth.

Jesus did not say he was GOD. He said he was son of man, an example of the most highly evolved a soul can be. A graduate of the lessons of life, and a master of the reality of the Divine. But still a man.

I am fine with the theory that he was the finished product...perfectly merged soul and flesh; the two become one;
and I'm even okay with his having been a 'gift' from the Divine, possibly, without having had to get there the mundane way (like we do). So he's teaching that one needs look no further than within; but that one must seek, and continue seeking...that spark, until personally realized. The reunion with the Divine is our ethereal destiny; because we are mortal we cannot emulate the angels or the other beings; so we were offered an example of what we can be, not what they are, and have always been.

The more I read, of what he actually SAID, the more it points in the direction I'm taking here.

Yes he did say he was God in more than one way. He draws a distinction between Jesus the man and the Truth that he is. But he does not identify his true self as a man. The distinction is only ever illustrated as a means to highlight the difference.. or to say what he is not as a tool to understand what he is.

Reality is.. for me.. When i got to the Nag i found a Jesus that was way more "as a matter of fact" and less "do what i do and you can go to heaven/become enlightened". What i get out of the Nag is. If you are Truth you are Truth. The unfolding itself is part of non-reality.. so you cannot be in this delusion and Truth at the same time. It is not possible. You are either True or you're not. The Jesus the man story is for us.. but is just as much a part of the delusion as anything else.

I didn't get a whole lot of enlightenment encouragement out of the Nag in terms of personal development. To me it just laid out the painful (non)reality of the delusion i live in.. seemingly separate from the Truth. But in doing so in such a way it becomes easier to acknowledge the totality of non-reality/delusion. In a way bringing me virtually closer to Reality. I say virtually because that is all it is. Virtual.

Buddha has the middle path.. and the Buddha story works great for people looking to ease the pain. The Nag and even the gospels when i read them now reveal the cold hard facts. We live inside a reflection with a beginning and an end. Separate from Truth by way of delusion. If you are Truth in the way that Jesus was you are known and will be known. Meaning.. The Jesus story is so extremely popular because of it's extreme novelty. Possibly the single most important/attractive event in the history of this delusion outside the beginning and the end.

Maybe the bible is watered down. But after you read the Nag and go back to the gospels you can't see them the same. You see more of the real Jesus in there. I do.

Those with ears will hear and those without won't.. And there is no way to get ears so don't sweat having them or not having them

reply to post by rwfresh

Yes he did say he was God in more than one way. He draws a distinction between Jesus the man and the Truth that he is. But he does not identify his true self as a man. The distinction is only ever illustrated as a means to highlight the difference.. or to say what he is not as a tool to understand what he is.

Can you please provide me with a reliable source (scripture?) that indicates he said he was GOD?
Yes, he does identify himself as Son of Man. He was plainly flesh and blood...a Son of Man....
He said, furthermore, that everyone who listened to him could achieve the same things he did.

Mark 8:27-38 (KJV)
And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

reply to post by wildtimes


He will say "I and my father are one" or some reference to I AM... none of which say I AM GOD, but refer to him being a PART of God.

He did not say I AM GOD... ever...

But he did say this...

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

reply to post by Akragon

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Thanks for the bump and encouragement.
I should have expected this thread would be way over my head....but hey, I'm learning, and thanks for the linkydinks....
really interesting stuff.

I have learned a lot from you more experienced students here.....
but am completely aware I have a llooooooonng way to go.

reply to post by rwfresh


Very insightful. I'll keep saying it: Read 2 Esdras. You won't be sorry. Read Odes of Solomon. If you want to know how reality is constructed by the physics of God's genius, read Ode 12. Esdras grabs you from the start and never lets go. There is one dry spot in the middle when it seems to repeat itself with Apocalyptic language of future events, then it clears the air by defining what it just said. Very good reading. Jesus is very much the focus of this book. There is time travel, transmigration of the soul and a ton of other revelations to what we have always suspected from the Bible. If you want a good read on transmigration and the implications to our own life, read the article linked in my signature on Baptism and the Water.

Gnostic knowledge is in the Bible when you read it by symbol instead of as the literal outer layer of the onion. The core is where the real story is at. Mercy to mankind is the point of it all. The emotion in Esdras for the compassion of the sinner is a striking reality. Few find the truth, yet God is compassionate for the believer who embraces the truth.