The Secret of Freemasonry Seen in the Reflection of a Mirror - What do you see?

Originally posted by Conspirus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by Conspirus
With a human being there’s an enormous amount of energy released.” Bill Schnoebelen

Well there's a trustworthy source!

As soon as Bill's name came up, the die was cast on the 'quality' of your posts.

Fitz

Here it is again, you guys crack me up sometimes

Why man? Because he’s on the “nono/hate” list on your websites,

Uh....no. Because any man who claims to be a simultaneous adherent of so many organisations with contradictory and/or mutually exclusive goals is lying about something. How then is one supposed to take anything he says with anything other than a grain (or three) of salt?

Originally posted by Conspirus
And think, wouldn’t he be hated naturally if he‘s saying stuff like that against your organization, as the rest of the other sources who have things to say against freemasonry after their experiences with it?

If he said anything that was remotely true and wasn't in diametric opposition to everything I personally have experienced, I'd cut him slack even then because I have an open mind. But my mind's not so open that my brains fall out either. But then the usual response is that I obviously can't be so highly-placed as to be trusted with the 'true' secrets of Freemasonry as known so thoroughly by non-Masons. The hubris of that mindset would be equivalent to me lecturing the Pope on the inner secret intricacies of the Roman Catholic faith.

Originally posted by Conspirus
Die was cast on the quality of my posts huh? Cheap way to do away with the rest of my posts man

Sorry to disappoint you then. But in my book, when you lead with a source that the most generous description of that comes to mind is "extremely questionable", can you in all honesty gainsay anyone doubting the rest of what you post?

Originally posted by Conspirus
the great “evidence” on Bill is convincing, entirely (sarcasm)

if that’s you all you have as evidence… I’m speechless.

I notice from the raft of posts that you continue with that you're anything but.

Fitz

Originally posted by Conspirus
Yeah, so what? I could care less of what his official denomination is.

It is your perogative to ignore the facts.

Plus, furthering on what Kyobosha said, if he were a true Christian why would he marry a woman who participates in seances?

You said Hillary Clinton was conducting seances, last time I looked Franklin was not married to her.

There IS no relevance to Roosevelt with that statement, good job

now if you could tell me what it was relevant to, I just might give you a star instead of just your usual buddies goin around givin you some regardless of what you say.

Stop being cryptic, if you have a point to make, make it.

Who knows, probably something similar to what Leonardo Da Vinci was.

So in reality, you have no clue.

Notice I said >sacred< geometry? And yes, you are correct

and yes it would negate their relevance. I wouldn’t call Roman Catholocism Christian anymore man, if it ever was. What of that scuffle would I have called biblical Christian? Likely the Protestants. Either way, here’s a quote for you:

“We should remind ourselves again that the Roman Catholic Church, with its elaborate ceremonies, was once the main support of Freemasonry and the ceremonies connected with that order.  All of the ceremonies of the Christian Church and of Freemasonry contain overtones of the ancient Mystery Religions.”

masonicworld.com...

Being a lapsed Roman Catholic I can say that I see little to no correlaries beetween Masonic ritual and Catholic dogma so I fail to see what this particular Mason is basing his opinion upon regarding ritual. I do understand the point of Speculative Masonry's origins in Operative Masonry, which would have found its members actively invloved in the creation of cathederals throughout Europe. However, Operative and Speculative Masonry are very dissimilar and have been for centuries.

Note by Christian Church they refer to mainly the Roman Catholic Church, much like you consider Roman Catholics as being Christian.

It is not just me who considers them to be Christian.

Furthermore it’s like you don’t even read my entire post, the relevance was in my last post...

I address your points on a post-by-post basis. If something is relevant than inlcude it and stop assuming that people are reading your mind.

A language of hieroglyphics was adapted to the celebrations  of the Sacred Mysteries of ancient Egypt, unknown to any but  those who had received the Highest Degree.  And to them  ultimately were confined the learning, the morality and the  political power of every people among which the mysteries were  practiced.  So effectually was the knowledge of the hieroglyphics  of the highest degrees hidden from all but a favored few, that in  process of the time their meaning was entirely lost, and none  could interpret them.”

This refers to Egyptian mysteries and is not relevant.

“The more important Masonic symbols are very ancient, and  their true meanings can only be found by tracing them back into  the past.  This will be found to be particularly the case with the  Third degree; its true meaning can only be realized by the study  of similar rites which appear to go far back into the history of  our race. “

I do not see anything here that supports your claim that symbolism on the Great Seal was 'treasured by secret societies since ancient times'. Your big mistake is assuming that the Great Seal is Masonic, which it is not.

Originally posted by Conspirus
Oh yeah? By other artists just like ‘Contormo’?

Yes, it is a widely used symbol in the Renaissance to depict diety and there are numerous examples available by searching. As I pointed out earlier there is a thread which I linked several sources.

That matters not if that eye is the modern depiction of the Eye of Horus. Renaissance artists huh? There’s your problem

most have thought that the Renaissance was a Christian phenomenon, but some research may indicate otherwise; also, how bout you go do your research into your societies symbols and don’t stop at the Renaissance or you cut the history in half at least.

It seems to be that you have a serious comprehension issue. I continue to discuss the eye in a triangle. Which specifically refers to the Trinity. I am aware that the usage of an eye dates back to much older times. The interpretation at the time it is framed in a triangle make it purely a Christian symbol.

If you have evidence of this iconography (eye in a triangle) dating to before the Renaissance then please post it.

You have no dates with those images. Where are they?

“An equilateral triangle with the monotheistic symbol of the Deity within symbolizes: the triangle--Heaven, The circle within--the Deity, reading the Deity, the Infinite, dwells in Heaven, Heaven is His abode.
An equilateral triangle with an eye within symbolizes the Deity looking out from heaven. In Egypt it was changed to the all seeing Eye of Osiris looking down from heaven. These two symbols are found in all ancient writings. Rather, they appear in many writings and among all people.”

Good, now show me 'ancient writings' that have the eye in a triangle prior to the 16th/17th Century. I think you are going to have a very hard time doing so, as it does not exist.

This also does not disprove that the Eye of Providence is still used by Christians to this day.

Originally posted by Conspirus

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Alright man, whatever you say. Just learn greek sometime and read it yourself then eh?

Koine Greek or Medieval Greek?

There are plenty of theologians who have no contradiction with my interpretation...

And there are plenty who do.

How did they practice the Law but not follow the Law? How are they not the same thing in your mind?

No, the judicicary can practice the law but still not personally abide by the law. This is the hypocritical part. 'Do as I say and not as I do."

Originally posted by Conspirus

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Schnoebelen discredits himself, as others have mentioned.

How, by that little chart? I love how people try to dive in so hard to nitpick at things. OK, there is nothing wrong with that timeline, he could be all those things at the same time - it’s not that hard man.

For a man whose word is supposed to be taken as Gospel? Not on this plane of existence. Explain to me how in your eyes, one can simultaneously be involved with:

1) Roman Catholicism
2) Old Catholicism
3) Freemasonry
4) Wicca
5) Spiritism
6) Satanism
7) Hard Core Satanism
8) Vampirism
AND
9) Momonism?

Common sense on this plane of existence says that honest simultaneous adherence to the above (as claimed by Schnoebelen in '79-'80) isn't possible and is in fact the hallmark of an attention-seeking liar and/or someone with an agenda against the above-mentioned.

Originally posted by Conspirus
The becoming saved part overlapping a little….MIGHT worry me, however, if he was starting to come to that conclusion during his end times with being a Satanist, then there would be an overlap no problem.

Ah! So the overlap doesn't smack of agenda to you because everything else is lumped into one big ol' bag o' evil? Gotcha!

Originally posted by Conspirus
Just as the church is full of hypocrites who do one thing at church yet do the polar opposite on their free time, if one has no conviction he can be all of those things with no issue.

So if he didn't have any conviction then, why are you so sure that the leopard's changed his spots THIS time?

Originally posted by Conspirus
Notice he dropped them all after he became a born again Christian.

That presupposes that he was any one of them at all let alone in the timeframe he claims. Or that he's really born again.

Originally posted by Conspirus
Apart from being a Born Again Christian, ALL those other things you can do at the same time no problem.

The Vatican might see things differently. But they're part of the Big Ol' Bag O' Evil© so they don't count, right? Gotcha!

Originally posted by Conspirus
Listen man, if you are so sure about yourself and your organization then you wouldn’t be afraid to dive into the information they have to the fullest instead of just grazing around for stuff YOU don’t like or brushing them aside just cuz your organization doesn‘t like them or give them a thumbs down.

According to you. Thanks for sharing

Fitz

Originally posted by Conspirus
“I will be like the Most High.”
Even if he’s not a supreme being in any way, he likes to pretend to be. Thus those that worship him call him Lucifer, not Satan.

This is like equating Jim Jones to a Supreme Being. Just because someone, or something, says they are does not make it so. There is only one creator of the Universe.

Glad to hear that coming from you, but what about what Albert Pike said about freemasonry as a whole being a Luciferian doctrine?

Pike never said that and you are falling for a very common misperception about his writings.

Originally posted by Conspirus
Naw, often times the ones that get a lot of flack from multiple orginizations actually have valuable information, as they wouldn’t be cast in such a negative light otherwise. Just as Jesus was called a liar and a drunk.

Well I'm gobsmacked! How many different mutually-contradictory groups was Jesus a member of? Oh! Wait a second....

You may also be familiar with the axiom that the best lies contain a hint of truth

Originally posted by Conspirus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
If Schnoebelen claimed the sun was shining, I'd doublecheck that

So is being condescending a moral trait of freemasonry as well?

That's called being sarcastic. Glad I was able to help you out. It's also a human trait, not one specific to any one group.

Fitz

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Venice is beautiful. I loved every minute there, but Italy in general has stuning architecture (go figure) and rich symbolism.

Venice is nice alright but I'll take Firenze in a heartbeat. Just did Venice with the wife because she'd never been.

/derail

Fitz

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Uh....no. Because any man who claims to be a simultaneous adherent of so many organisations with contradictory and/or mutually exclusive goals is lying about something. How then is one supposed to take anything he says with anything other than a grain (or three) of salt?

Plus, if he was so spread out how would he be able to dedicate himself to each organization to truly gain a strong understanding and actually progress through them?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Venice is nice alright but I'll take Firenze in a heartbeat. Just did Venice with the wife because she'd never been.

I did enjoy Firenze, all 4-days of it. I had the pleasure of attending Lodge there as well as celebrating Notte Tricolore which is amazing as is, but last year was the 150th anniversary of a united Italy so they really put on a show.

I think alot of people don't realize that many of these symbols had more to do with speaking to an audience who could not read than anything. It would have been obviouse to the illiterate audience of the time that the Eye within the Triangle would have represented God and the Holy Trinity. This would have had the same meaning even in the circles considered 'heretical'.
With a more literate audience, these symbols have now fallen more into obscurity and now seem to have a more mysterious nature than they would have at one time.
The 'eye' has been used by people for centuries all around the world, not just by the Egyptians. The eye has represented for people the Third Eye, The Creator, A protection against the Evil Eye, etc. Guan Yin is depicted with many arms and eyes, for she is the compassionate Lady who hears the cries of the world. You have the eyes of the Buddha, The eye/s of Horus, The Eye of Odin, and so on. Even the concept of Trinity can be found around the world.
A better example is the the Cross, this symbol pre-dates Christianity but this dosn't seem to be a problem to Christians.
Fact is, we all share alot more in common than we think and it is no ill, sinister, and controversial thing.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Conspirus
Even if it may have been used once or twice in Christianity (the Vatican/Roman Catholics is a separate story altogether), it is more predominantly known as a pagan symbol.

It is used much more than 'once or twice' so stop deflecting. And again, just because you have an issue with the Roman Catholic Church does not diminsh the fact that it was and is used as a Christian symbol. The usage of an eye in a triangle does not date back to Egypt and can be traced to Renaissance artists who used it to depict the Trinity and the Eye of God (which is mentioned in Psalms 33:18).

If you have evidence of this iconography (eye in a triangle) dating to before the Renaissance then please post it.

Just curious, and I’m not trying to be rude, but do you know the true meaning of every symbol you see, and every ritual you perform throughout your ceremonies? How far back have you traced the Mysteries that the craft is steward of?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
As Conspirus pointed out you need to understand the meaning of 'fulfill' in that verse. Fulfill in this case means to complete a contract essentially. With Jesus came salvation by faith not works. The law wasn't destroyed but the contract had been fulfilled by Jesus. Not sure why you keep pushing to get the 'anti-adultery' stones ready, I most assuredly don't have one nor do I need one.

That is also your personal opinion. Jesus was very clear that not one letter of the law would be changed. This is the Christian-lite approach to the Bible, pick and choosing some from column A and some from column B and omitting what does not allow them to live the lifestyle they happen to desire. If you notice Jesus never adds or subtracts from any laws in the Bible, it can be deduced that, since Jesus was Jewish, and lived in a Jewish state, that he adhered to Jewish laws otherwise he would have been stoned to death long before he was crucified.

I don’t think you understand what I’m trying to say. You are correct that Jesus does not add or subtract anything from the Old Testament law. He came to fulfill the contract of the Old Testament laws. We are now saved by FAITH not WORKS. There is no choosing column A or column B to suit one’s lifestyle as you say.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
If you really want to be technical (which by the way has no bearing in the argument) practicing can absolutely be used in the past tense. Why does tense matter really? Just because they are dead now means they never had an affect on society? You seem like an intelligent person, so please don't be so naive to argue trivial things such as tenses.

The tense is important as there are very few Masons in what can be considered 'positions of power' so I fail to see how they can be 'affecting society' as was postulated. When you are dead your continued influence on society is severly curtailed by your poor state of constitution.

Haha True you won’t be doing much physically on Earth when you are dead. But, that doesn’t mean one didn’t affect society while alive nor does it mean you won’t leave a ‘lasting impression’ after you’ve passed. The fact that one is dead has no bearing on the affect they had while alive nor does it affect the impact they’ve had after they’ve passed. This is the reason why post mortem medals and awards have been given all throughout history.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

As Satan was created by God how can Satan be a 'supreme being'? (This also goes to you getreadyalready)


If I somehow became aware that a petitioning member believed that the Biblical Satan was their 'supreme being' I would not vote in favor of their membership based on the fact that the Biblical Satan is subordinate to God.

Good point. And personally, I'm speaking more of Lucifer than Satan, but your point is still valid. I view Jesus in that same context though, and I could still vote in favor of someone that worships Jesus, yet I don't view Jesus as a Supreme Being in the same sense as the Creator.

I believe someone can acknowledge there is only one Supreme Creator, but they can choose to follow the teachings of Buddha, or Jesus, or Muhammad, and they can still find success in such a religion. I also believe one can believe in a single Supreme Creator, but believe as a Wiccan believes, or as a Luciferian and still find success in life and Masonry, as long as what we embody in Masonry is similar to the core concepts of their religion's teachings.

Satanism would NOT fall in that category.

Again, I should have clarified. By Satanism I was referring to more of the Theistic Satanism/luciferianism. Theistic Satanism would fall in that category.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
Remember that generally to be accepted as into the fraternity you need to believe in a supreme being. However, who that supreme being is can be interpereted by the member in any way. In other words, the supreme being could be God or Satan to that person, it just depends who they consider supreme.

As Satan was created by God how can Satan be a 'supreme being'? (This also goes to you getreadyalready)


If I somehow became aware that a petitioning member believed that the Biblical Satan was their 'supreme being' I would not vote in favor of their membership based on the fact that the Biblical Satan is subordinate to God.

In my personal view, Satan is not and will never be the supreme being. However, this does not change the fact that there are people out there who believe the opposite. There are beliefs out there that say Satan (Lucifer) is the supreme being.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
I understand what you mean by the 32 degree or a Knights Templar degree not changing the status as viewed between bretheren of the third degree. I'm not saying that the higher degrees necessarily make one member greater than another but there is "knowledge" that is gained and associated with each degree. I would say with that does come respect.

There is no additional 'knowledge' derived from the Scottish Rite Degrees. They are a series of morality plays enacted that expand upon the same basic premises in the Blue Lodge Degrees. Additonally, one does not need to view all of them to receive the 32nd Degree. Hell, I actually know someone who did not see any of them and is a 32nd Degree Mason.

Personally I don’t see how nothing is gained yet it is expanded. What would be the point of the additional degrees, levels, or titles if absolutely nothing is gained? The reason I put knowledge in quotes is because I was not referring to one becoming necessarily academically smarter, but they do have a deeper ‘understanding’ of their faith, morality and the craft. Frankly, if I were also a 32nd degree Mason and saw all of them, I’d be kinda pissed that guy is a 32nd degree Mason. But that’s me

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
To be honest, the fact that Mrs. Clinton held seances in the white house and attempted to communicate with Eleanor Roosevelt is really concerning.

The relevance of this to Franklin Roosevelt's religious denomination is?

Well, last I checked, if the Roosevelt’s were Christian, then they would now be in Heaven. And if they were in Heaven, they wouldn’t be participating in the Séance’s seeing as how the Christian God doesn’t like pagan rituals. That’s why the séance thing concerns me that they may not have truly been saved.

Speaking of the quality of sources/posts the fact that you are calling him Contormo really speaks to the quality of your as well.

My mistake on mis-typing his name. As I stated earlier, there is an extensive thread on this forum where we discussed Pontormo, his painting and the usage of the all seeing eye, with links and sources.

Just to clear the air here… It is a mistake that could happen to all of us. I wasn’t referring to all of your posts, just that one. Hence me saying “I am really disappointed in your post”. I had to mention something since all that talk about quality of posts had just started.

If you are referring to Pontormo and his work "Supper at Emmaus" then you should do more research. Pontormo completed this painting in 1525, however, the eye of providence was not part if his original work. The eye was added sometime later by an unknown artist. Pontormo did not paint the eye in the painting.

I am aware many believe the eye was added at a latter date (late 16th/early 17th century). Regardless, the
imagery was used to represent the Eye of God on a painting which can not be construed as anything but Christian. It is also one of the first known and earliest usages.

Regardless or not, Pontormo did not paint the eye of providence in his original work.

My friend, it is not a Christian symbol. “Oh but the triangle represents the Holy Trinity, and the eye represents the eye of God.” This is the explanation I get all the time. BUT if you do your research as any diligent person would do (this goes for Christians/non-Christians alike), you will find the true meanings of the triangle and the eye.

First, the triangle was very prominent in Egypt and represented the sacred number 3, perfection, power, and deity. Second, the eye which was also very prominent in Egypt represented the eye of horus meaning protection, royal power, and good health. Combine these (Triangle = 3 + deity) (Eye = protection + good health (Psalm 33:18,19)), and you get your so called Eye of Providence. This symbol is an abomination from Egyptian symbols that has been falsely given Christian overtones.

Furthermore, if the triangle has the same TRUE meaning to freemasonry as it does in the ancient mysteries, then the Eye of providence holds and entirely different meaning. My friends, this goes to all the freemasons here, if you are true students of the craft and are truly devoted to your spiritual gain, I encourage you to research all of the symbols and rituals you use. Research the TRUE origin of them. Is this not what you are called to do within the craft?

en.wikipedia.org...

www.masonicdictionary.com...

Originally posted by Kyobosha
Just curious, and I’m not trying to be rude, but do you know the true meaning of every symbol you see, and every ritual you perform throughout your ceremonies?

For the most part, I do. I have given all the lectures and particpated as both and officer and a member of the ritual committee. When you first become a Mason the symbols are explained to you in great detail. For exmaple, the Rough and Perfect Ashlars. One can, however, develop a more defined interpretation of the symbols, either through personal experience, or by having others explain their detailed impressions of the symbols.

How far back have you traced the Mysteries that the craft is steward of?

I am aware of the origins of many of the symbols and their inherent mystery schools, however, the bulk of Masonic symbolism is of rather recent vintage (by recent I mean in the last few centuries).

Originally posted by Kyobosha
We are now saved by FAITH not WORKS.

And did not James say:

Faith Without Works Is Dead - What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Even if ancient cathedrals have the eye incorporated into their structure it certainly doesn't mean Christians use the symbol today. You will not find churches built in the last 100-150 years that use the symbol.

If you are going to criticise my posts because of a typo what are you going to do about your own for making blanket statements that two minutes on Google will disprove?

Utenos Dievo Apvaizdos was built in 2005 and prominently displays the Eye of Providence.

Allow me to shed some light on your proof there. This church claims to be Catholic. But if you research the Church a little and actually analyze the photo you will find many discrepancies. Without going into all of them, here are a few:

There are no Stations of the Cross.

There is no Tabernacle.

Their website has your horoscope one the main page.

If you really knew your Catholicism, you will also know how important the Stations of the Cross and the Eucharist were to Catholics. Both hold very high spiritual significance. Without the Tabernacle the parishioners could not hold the Blessed Sacrament. Furthermore, if you knew Catholicism, you would also know the stance of Church on horoscopes through the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Horoscopes are to be REJECTED. Sure doesn’t seem like Utenos Dievo Apvaizdos is rejecting it… If anything they are Catholic in title, but are far from Catholic in practice. Which would result in them not really being Catholic correct?

translate.google.com... 3Dstraipsnis%26data%3D2011-01-18%26id%3D2238
www.utenos-diena.lt...
en.wikipedia.org...
forums.catholic.com...

You are incorrect that it is still a Christian symbol.

Am I now?

Yes, see my explanation in my previous post. Not to mention all of the Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, and non denominational churches that don't have that symbol. You most certainly claim it is still a Christian symbol today.

Knowing it is from the eye of horus Christians should not use this symbol.

Tell that to the parishoners of Utenos Dievo Apvaizdos.

Again, see my argument above.

Then again not many people know it is derived from the eye of horus.

And not many people really care because its usage in a church do not denote Horus but the Holy Trinity.

Like I said, if everyone researched symbology they would find the true meaning. Sure a lot of people don’t care, that doesn’t mean it is a Christian symbol. Throughout history it has been FALSELY given Christian overtones.