The Secret of Freemasonry Seen in the Reflection of a Mirror - What do you see?

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Conspirus

 

Hiram was of the trible of Naphtali, isn't that a Jewish tribe? Where in the Bible does it say that Solomon went against God's wishes in the design of the Temple?

There is often a disagreement as to which Hiram was really involved. I tend to think it was King Hiram of Tyre, and by holding hands with this dude Solomon was already committing a sin, as King Hiram was a Canaanite and the Israelites were commanded to stay away from their ways. The story that Solomon went against God’s wishes in design of the Temple comes from Masonic lore.

What constitutes, to you, "high level" vs "low level" Mason?

Those that know what the brotherhood’s all about vs. those that think it’s a fun wonderful organization…suppose they all think it’s a wonderful organization if they’re part of it, but separated by how much they’re allowed to know, how much power they’re given. High level I’d say 30+, low level, 30-, though recently I’ve come across research stating there could be up to 90 - not sure what I think about that quite yet….most likely they’re not considering the higher levels possibly break off into groups that are called by other Brotherhood names after certain points.

reply to post by Conspirus

Well, there is no witchcraft in Masonry nor does the Bible condemn secrecy.

Then it’s probably that you’re trying to act like you don’t know anything to keep from stuff you swore to happen to you OR you just aren’t all that high up the ladder - if it’s the latter you can rest assured.

The authorities of Freemasonry, most notably Albert Pike, 33° and Manly P. Hall, 33° (both occultists par excellance) write that the essential, underlying philosophy of Freemasonry is Kabbalism and Gnosticism. Kabbalism is a system of Jewish mysticism and magic and is the foundational element in modern Witchcraft. - William Schnoebelen, Freemasonry, From Darkness to Light?
Ephesians 5:12 - For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

Oh, and another thing; you have your revered Master Masons of the past saying one thing, yet you guys here saying another….seems to imply you guys either have no clue what they were saying or you’re pretending not to know.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Conspirus
The Eye of Providence was never a Christian symbol "first", it has represented the Eye of Horus from the very beginning. FDR was the one who put it on the dollar...enough said about that.

Roosevelt placing it on the dollar is irrelevant as it was already on the Great Seal for over 150 years at that point. It was not a new image.

Only reason I brought up FDR putting it on the dollar is because he was not a Christian and the fact that it’s on a monetary note that says “In God we Trust” has nothing to with it being Christian. Because other than that, any staunch instance where one might remotely call it as being a Christian symbol is on a painting whose author isn’t even proven to be Christian, OR in churches/cathedrals that can either be traced back to sacred geometry architecture or to the Vatican‘s history. Again, never did I say FDR created it or that that was the first instance it was used, he WAS the first to put it on the dollar though but created it? Far from it - it is a symbol that has been treasured by secret societies since ancient times

He is back with another account.

Well good, you guys are clear then

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

It's origins may have been derived there but we are refering specifically to its use within a triangle which is without a doubt a Christian symbol. There are no examples of this style symbol (eye within a triangle) prior to the late 1500's/early 1600's let alone Egyptian examples.

Even if it may have been used once or twice in Christianity (the Vatican/Roman Catholics is a separate story altogether), it is more predominantly known as a pagan symbol. Plus, having originated with the Egyptians you can’t say it was first a Christian symbol as Christianity wasn’t even around yet. Regardless of all that, what it is used to represent today that is more significant than it‘s origin, much like most other things in this world which started out as Christian such as the Roman Catholic Church/Vatican, Christmas, Easter, etc, focus is not on anything Christian....even if you were to be correct on its origin.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Jesus, in the New Testament, also states that he is not there to change the Law, which, by logical deduction, means that his disciples should still be adhering to the Law. He also admonishes his followers not to be like the priests who do not follow the Law, but to be unlike them and observe the Law.

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

The key phrase in your Matthew 5:17-18 is “but to fulfill them.” To fulfill, in greek, is pleroo, which is the same word used when filling up a glass with water, or a void with something - so in essence he is saying he completed it so it no longer had to be followed with the rigidity it was before.

As for Matt. 23, Jesus is commanding them to obey the Pharisees because they are the authority as they sit in Moses’ seat. As for verse 3, Jesus is telling them not to be like them because they’re hypocrites, as they followed the law with no heart; and if you do some research you will find the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, were related to the mystery religions.

Get your anti-adultery stones polished and ready.

Alright, there’s a big difference when one’s being told he shouldn’t be doing something, bible-wise, and when he’s about to be killed for not doing what the bible says as when the adulteress was about to be stoned by others who commit sins themselves. Here Jesus demonstrates you don’t have to adhere to the law like that anymore as he paid the price per se. Should the old law be revered still? Yes. But more importance is placed on the new law now since after Jesus. Otherwise, our “Christian” nation wouldn’t be such a rampantly sinful society, as everyone would be stoned to death, eh? You guys crack me up sometimes

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Rapha

 

So you believed some guy who escaped from a mental ward?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Get your anti-adultery stones polished and ready.

And they called me mad for keeping mine!!

reply to post by Kyobosha

 

No symbol, such as the Eye of Providence, has no single meaning or use. Cultures all over the world have used various symbols for both similar and different reasons. Look up arbitrary and ambiguous.

Of which religions are the new age religions which have no trouble going hand in hand with freemasonry or occult teachings. And it does represent basically the same thing.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Conspirus

 

Now, as for why high-level Masons would come here and spill their guts? It is because they care. It is because they want people to know the truth, and they want people to ask questions, and they are eager to share information for a fraternity they care deeply about. Logically, why wouldn't they want to share their knowledge and experience? Don't we all look for opportunities to show what we know and enlighten our friends and neighbors with out personal knowledge and experience? Of course they would be here sharing!

If you noticed I was being my usual sarcastic self where you quoted me . The basis for freemasonry is a pyramid type hierarchy, each level knows something more the lower doesn’t - how is this a format for letting everyone in the world know everything if even in your own fraternity secrets are kept from each other? And actually, reason I said that is because I highly DOUBT high level masons are spilling the beans in that manner on a place such as this. Much like how government cronies are likely hopping around key threads that matter, why wouldn’t there be disinformation agents for freemasonry be here as well to make the fraternity build up its “good” front than for what it really is in which other people have either died or risked their lives to give up information on what really goes on in the higher ranks, or where the fraternity comes from, or who they really worship?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I think it's important for non Masons to know that we Masons often learn a good deal from our fellow Masons on ATS usually from Non-Masons asking questions. I don't know anyone in the Craft that knows everything, I'm sure some old timers could give us a run for the money but even they stand to learn something new, or at least see something from another point of view.

Another point of view is one thing, but after such emphasis on secrecy do you all really believe they are telling you stuff their levels know, especially on where it counts? The shrimps aren’t considered important enough to know what they know.

And for the record, non-Masons out there, if I ever found that Freemasonry was in any way an organized effort to do anything that could be construed as malevolent towards people in general I would want no part in it.

In the level or organizations meant for you guys I’m sure there’s plenty of goodness that goes about, and I don’t doubt that there are good people with good intentions involved; however, I encourage you to learn where your fraternity comes from and who they really worship.

reply to post by Conspirus


I suppose the conversation is pointless, because your most basic understanding of Freemasonry is already flawed, and you have ignored the Freemasons attempting to correct it.

Freemasonry is NOT a pyramid structure, and there are only 3 levels to Masonry and pretty much every Mason co-exists on the 3rd level. Time spent in any authority position, or "chair," is one year, by an election process, and there is no campaigning allowed.

Therefore, the very notion that any Mason could somehow grab power and steer the craft is absurd.

reply to post by Conspirus

Another point of view is one thing, but after such emphasis on secrecy do you all really believe they are telling you stuff their levels know, especially on where it counts? The shrimps aren’t considered important enough to know what they know.

Who is "they?"

What makes you think there are any Masons above his level? The majority of the Masons you are corresponding with on here are Past Masters, 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Masons, and even Grand Officers in their respective states. KS has more titles than he could probably list in a single post! JoshNorton has just about every book Albert Pike ever wrote, and has the majority of them memorized!

You are assuming they are "shrimps" because they are nice, and direct, and knowledgeable?

reply to post by Conspirus

I did read your posts and responded accordingly.

Freemasonry can be traced back to the ancient mystery religion of Babylon and Egypt

According to some, but it is not an established fact. It is an assumption only as as much of this post.

reply to post by Conspirus

Where in Masonic lore do we say that Solomon went against God's wishes?

You really don't realize how we're organized. 30+? Well, I'm a 32 degree so I guess I fit in that category of 30+. But there is more to Masonry than just the Scottish Rite. There are various appendant bodies. I'm also a Templar and a member of the Eastern Star. There is no recognized body that goes up to 90, but you are thinking of the Rite of Memphis and Mizraim.

I have never lied on this forum about my experiences and since you have no actual concept of our structures then you really don't know what I am.

Pike and Hall were both men and had their opinion. They are or were not the only ones to ever write a book about Freemasonry. William Schnoebelen also says the following about hismelf:



Bill is a con artist.

Originally posted by Conspirus
With a human being there’s an enormous amount of energy released.” Bill Schnoebelen

Well there's a trustworthy source!

As soon as Bill's name came up, the die was cast on the 'quality' of your posts.

Fitz

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
Well if you want to get technical, the laws you mention are in the old testament and were given to the Israelites before Christ came not Christians. The Israelites and Christians are different groups. Either way, these laws were obviously in the old testament. Jesus in the new testament brings salvation from sin and gives us a route to heaven.

Jesus, in the New Testament, also states that he is not there to change the Law, which, by logical deduction, means that his disciples should still be adhering to the Law. He also admonishes his followers not to be like the priests who do not follow the Law, but to be unlike them and observe the Law.

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"

Get your anti-adultery stones polished and ready.

edit on 16-2-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: Networkdude has no beer.

As Conspirus pointed out you need to understand the meaning of 'fulfill' in that verse. Fulfill in this case means to complete a contract essentially. With Jesus came salvation by faith not works. The law wasn't destroyed but the contract had been fulfilled by Jesus. Not sure why you keep pushing to get the 'anti-adultery' stones ready, I most assuredly don't have one nor do I need one.

The pharisees treated tradition as an equal authority to Scripture. They essentially added 'laws' to God's word which goes against the 'Law'. The pharisees also were very self righteous and reduced to their relationship with God to a legalistic list of rules and rituals. They believed in the Law correctly but failed to live by it appropriately.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Kyobosha
So Edison, Tesla, the Wright brothers and thousands of other historic figures aren't affecting life in the present? Electricity, the light bulb, airplanes, you name it. There is a lot of things and people from the past that are affecting life in the present bro. Any action can cause an effect in the future.

He was not talking about the past, he was talking about the present:

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
...does this make the practicing ritual magic and Theurgy an acceptable practice for men with private associations that affect all aspects of society?

He was speaking in the present tense. Notice the bolded words? Not, 'have or had practiced', or 'have or had affected, but 'practicing' (present tense).

I believe the issue with the all seeing eye and the dollar has to do with the context of the unfinished pyramid. Either way, the eye of providence is an adaptation of the eye of horus which is Egyptian.

Irrelevant. Whether it was adpated from the Egyptians or not to Trinitarian Christians it represented the the Eye of God and the Holy Trinity.

edit on 16-2-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: Networkdude has no beer.

If you really want to be technical (which by the way has no bearing in the argument) practicing can absolutely be used in the past tense. Why does tense matter really? Just because they are dead now means they never had an affect on society? You seem like an intelligent person, so please don't be so naive to argue trivial things such as tenses.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Die was cast on th is thread a whole ago Fitzy

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Conspirus

 

I suppose the conversation is pointless, because your most basic understanding of Freemasonry is already flawed, and you have ignored the Freemasons attempting to correct it.

Freemasonry is NOT a pyramid structure, and there are only 3 levels to Masonry and pretty much every Mason co-exists on the 3rd level. Time spent in any authority position, or "chair," is one year, by an election process, and there is no campaigning allowed.

Therefore, the very notion that any Mason could somehow grab power and steer the craft is absurd.

This conversation isn't pointless, I understand the structure of Freemasonry as I'm sure Conspirus and Enoch do as well. Just to affirm what's been said, I don't believe all Masons are involved. Yes there is no apparent governing body for the 'craft' as a whole. Each grand lodge not only sets its own rituals and rules but also determines which grand lodges it will recognize. Since this is the case you can't really speak to all of the rituals that each lodge (regular and irregular) performs. Am I saying your lodge participates in satanic rituals? No. Are there lodges that do? Yes. You are correct that no one person will be able to steer the craft (or to clarify, the fraternity throughout the world). This doesn't mean a grand lodge can't be.

Grand lodges can and do deny the membership of lodges within its jurisdiction. Typically any grand lodge not recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England is also not recognized by all the grand lodges that are recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England. Since there are millions of people and many lodges under the jurisdiction of a grand lodge there is essentially a pyramid structure.

With regards to the three levels you are refering to, yes, general free masonry has three. There are other appendant bodies that go higher. These bodies are considered masonic due to the fact that you have to be a 3rd degree mason to be a member.

Remember that generally to be accepted as into the fraternity you need to believe in a supreme being. However, who that supreme being is can be interpereted by the member in any way. In other words, the supreme being could be God or Satan to that person, it just depends who they consider supreme.

reply to post by Kyobosha


There's so much wrong with the entirety of your last post. Please at least read something about the structures of freemasonry before you spew a bunch of, well, a bunch of crap trying to sound like you know something. Just makes you look like a troll.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by Conspirus
With a human being there’s an enormous amount of energy released.” Bill Schnoebelen

Well there's a trustworthy source!

As soon as Bill's name came up, the die was cast on the 'quality' of your posts.

Fitz

If you are specifically referring to the energy portion of the post, there are many other sources (mainstream as well) that believe in this energy concept. Either way, many other sources have been thrown out there other than Bill. This one source says nothing about the quality of the other posts.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


Please enlighten me as to where I am so wrong wrong then. I have done a lot of research into the structure. I would appreciate it if you at least gave constructive criticism instead of calling me an idiotic troll that can't think for himself. You didn't attribute anything to the discussion with that post.

reply to post by Kyobosha


Ok I'll narrow it down. You were not wrong about the general structure of freemasonry. Please allow me take that one back.

In my personal experience, though, I have still yet to meet a Satan worshipping Mason. I won't be the guy that says they don't exist...... But I will be the guy to say they have to be pretty rare. Brotherly love, relief, and truth doesn't exactly sound like a satanic creed so I'm unsure as to why a satanist would become a mason.

Another thing that you weren't entirely wrong about, but also was not entirely correct was there being a difference between the 3 degrees, known as blue lodge masonry, and the Appendant rites. Yes it is possible to join other Masonic bodies after being raised to a Master Mason. What does NOT change however is your standing amongst the brethren. Because a man has a title like 32 degree or a Knights Templar degree, or is a member of the shrine, does not make that man a "higher level" mason. Once a brother reaches the 3rd, he is considered an equal amongs the brethren. I would say the only small exceptions to this would be becoming an officer in the lodge, and eventually becoming a Worshipful Master. The title of Past Master is highly, highly respected.

The only other exception I would say is the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite which you have to be a 33 degree mason to be allowed attendance. The 33 degree in masonry is not a 'petitioned' degree. It's and honorary, highly prestigious Masonic title that can only be gifted to a member of the Scottish rite for his labors as a mason. And to be honest, I have only met one 33 degree mason that seemed to have an inflated ego about his title. I've met several, and they were all very humble and down to earth.... 'cept one. But that's not a story for Ats

reply to post by Kyobosha


You are right that the Supreme Being one believes in could go by any name, including Satan. In that much you are absolutely correct. You are wrong that any Lodge or Grand Lodge could ever endorse a Satanic Ritual. Any "regular" Lodge of Freemasonry has specific Opening and Closing procedures and Degree Work, and Lectures, and a few things like Lodges of Sorrow and Funeral Rites that are occasionally done. All of that work is specifically non-denominational. We do say prayers and refer to a Holy Book, but the prayers don't call God by any specific name like "God, Allah, Satan, or Jehovah." They Holy Book is often the Bible where I live, but in other areas they may add additional books to the altar or change the book with whatever is appropriate for their Lodge, but they still do NOT change the so-called "rituals."

Also, I don't know how to say this any more clearly, but if there were a secret subset of people vying to influence the world, or do some crime, or create a shadow govt, they would be an extreme fringe, and an extremely small subset, and if they were ever found out they would be removed from the fraternity, so in fact, they would not represent Masonry in any way. You cannot define a large group by the actions of a select few acting against the wishes of the larger group. If a small subset of Math Professors devised a bank robbery scheme and robbed a bank, it would be illogical to call all math teachers bank robbers. Same concept. Even if one of these conspiracies panned out and had some truth to it, the perpetrators would be kicked out of the fraternity, and it would have no bearing on the whole of Masonry anyway.