The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

Originally posted by luxordelphi
This picture is from Kansas. Kansas is at 39 degrees N. It is far from the equator at 0 degrees.

So what? Contrary to your claims, what you call the "boat moon" can be seen far north of 0 degrees. You need to learn some basic astronomy. The moon's orbital inclination is not 0 degrees. Furthermore, you don't seem to understand the concept of field rotation at all.

The equator runs through Ecuador, Bolivia and Brazil in S America. This is how the moon should look on the equator - a smile, boat. This is not how it should look in Kansas. The date was April 4, 2008.

That image wasn't taken on april 4, 2008. I suggest you read your own link (the first sentence would be a good place to start). It was taken on March 8, 2008. And yes, that's how it should have looked from about 39 north.
i319.photobucket.com...
You have to account for where the sun is in the sky relative to the moon, and where the moon is in the sky, something those "evil planetarium programs" you ignore already do.

reply to post by ngchunter


So account for it. Give me the numbers and we'll talk. No more froo froo. Just the hard numbers. Spit them out - what are they a state secret? Like I told the other guy/girl - hard numbers - then we'll talk.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by ngchunter

 

So account for it. Give me the numbers and we'll talk.

I showed you that you're wrong, it's as simple as that. The moon's declination was just shy of 5 degrees that day, the sun's was about -4.5 degrees. You were wrong, that's how the moon should have looked from 39 degrees north.

i319.photobucket.com...

I will ask one more time, why does the moon's orientation look normal from a polar aligned perspective, but not "normal" by your definition of "normal" from an altitude-azimuth perspective?

reply to post by luxordelphi


You like hard numbers eh? How about these numbers? Do you know what the azimuth of the moon was at moonset on March 8, 2008 from 39 degrees north? 276.5 degrees. Do you know what the azimuth of the sun was at the same time from 39 degrees north? 278.5 degrees, placing the sun almost straight down relative to the moon, which is why it looked like a "boat moon."

reply to post by ngchunter


What was the latitude of the sun and what was the latitude of the moon at the time of NASA's 'Crescent Moon Alert' story and photo? I'll ask again - is it a state secret? Spit it out. Let's do the numbers. Otherwise, take your froo froo to someone who'll believe it. No sale here.

I see, so you don't understand declination, got it. I suggest you look it up. I already have you what you asked for lol.

reply to post by ngchunter


Look at that avatar. Does this look like someone who is going to listen to evidence?

Both her and the OP have chemtrails distorting their pictures, ferpetessake.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by jeichelberg

 

Maybe you need to think about the fact and I will say fact again, that noone is trying to tell you anything or cares to prove anything to you. What tech school did you go to or are you a speaker somewhere I can get tickets to hear you address some sell out crowd . What you believe is your business I dont and haven't seen anyone in this thread ask you or anyone else that shares your opinions for any proof. Who made you someone that I /we/ they have to show proof to. Your not that important for that effort. Is that proof enough?

All I am asking is this...does luxor even understand that March is WINTER in the Northern Hemisphere? If luxor does not understand that MARCH = WINTER in the Northern Hemisphere, then there really is nothing further to discuss...

Originally posted by ngchunter
reply to post by luxordelphi

 

You like hard numbers eh? How about these numbers? Do you know what the azimuth of the moon was at moonset on March 8, 2008 from 39 degrees north? 276.5 degrees. Do you know what the azimuth of the sun was at the same time from 39 degrees north? 278.5 degrees, placing the sun almost straight down relative to the moon, which is why it looked like a "boat moon."

I see, so you don't understand declination, got it. I suggest you look it up. I already have you what you asked for lol.

I hope you're not on a mission to make me look bad because I've been nice. I asked for the latitude of the moon and sun for March 8, 2008. You gave me azimuth. I already know what the moon looked like on that date in Kansas. I was the one who found the picture remember. I already know that it's supposed to look like that on the equator at 0 degrees and not in Kansas at 39 degrees N. I'm not looking for a mentor. I'm looking for latitude.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
I hope you're not on a mission to make me look bad because I've been nice. I asked for the latitude of the moon and sun for March 8, 2008. You gave me azimuth. I already know what the moon looked like on that date in Kansas. I was the one who found the picture remember. I already know that it's supposed to look like that on the equator at 0 degrees and not in Kansas at 39 degrees N. I'm not looking for a mentor. I'm looking for latitude.

Latitude? Galactic or Ecliptic? Neither of which is incredibly relevant. Do you mean the latitude at which the moon is directly overhead?

Anyway, here are the numbers for March 8th 2008, Kansas City, Moonset, according to Sky Safari on the Mac.



It's a little hard to see from space, but here's my best try at 600 pixels wide. The sun is very far away, so it's basically behind the moon, not (obviously) between it and the earth. The moon is a lot further out than it looks too.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
I hope you're not on a mission to make me look bad because I've been nice.

You do it to yourself, I just find it amusing.

I asked for the latitude of the moon and sun for March 8, 2008. You gave me azimuth.

You ignored the azimuth, even though it's far more relevant and proves you wrong, which is why you ignored it. That's not all I gave you though, you have now chosen to lie and ignore the post where I gave you what you asked for, though you didn't realize it.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Learn basic astronomy and learn what declination is.

Geez.

I already know that it's supposed to look like that on the equator at 0 degrees

Wrong, I showed you that's what it's supposed to look like at 39 north on that date.

reply to post by Uncinus


I think she's asking for the latitude on earth the moon was directly over, which in and of itself demonstrates her ignorance of how to determine what she's trying to determine. She also doesn't seem to want to understand what declination is and how it essentially answers her question. Of course she should be asking for ra and dec of the sun and moon to calculate the azimuth of each, but she's not.

I treid to doa video showing the March 8 2008 situation from space, it's a bit disjointed, but here it is:



Really need to watch full size, 720p. The sun and the moon appear together on the left of the screen after I zoom in on the Earth.

The yellow arrows point at the sun, and the other arrow on the Moon points at the earth. The blue arrow on the earth is the axis.

It's hard sometimes when looking up at the sky to remember that it's a 3D volume, not a spherical surface. The moon is a long way away, 238,000 miles, but the sun is 390 times as far away at 93,000,000 miles. So although it might look like the sun is besides the moon, it's really way way behind it.

Made with Cosmographia on the Mac, only $5, a fun little program.

Originally posted by Uncinus
...It's hard sometimes when looking up at the sky to remember that it's a 3D volume, not a spherical surface. The moon is a long way away, 238,000 miles, but the sun is 390 times as far away at 93,000,000 miles. So although it might look like the sun is besides the moon, it's really way way behind it....

Nice video.



One should also remember that, as shown in this image you had in an above post...:



...people at the mid-latitudes are standing "sideways" on the Earth relative to the "North pole up" view of the Earth people have in their minds. Therefore, these mid-latitude sideways people as shown in your graphic are looking at a horizon that is vertical.


Now, lets turn the whole Earth-Moon-Sun system 90° so the person is no longer sideways, and the horizon over which they are watching the Moon set is horizontal...:


This rotating of the Earth-Moon-Sun system has now resulted in the Moon being rotated when viewed over the western horizon during Moon-set. Because the orientation of the Moon has been rotated, that means the orientation of the Moon's terminator line will look rotated.



*************



Luxordelphi --

I know that you understand the basic concept of why the setting Moon can look like a boat when viewed from the equator, which is because the equator is directly under the Moon's orbital plane -- because people standing on the equator are standing basically "sideways" relative to the "North Pole up" view of the Earth.

HOWEVER, what you aren't seeming to grasp is that due to the tilt of the earth, and due to the tilt of the moon's orbital plane there are times that the mid-latitudes are also almost directly under the Moon's orbital plane -- or at least close enough to it to see a tilted moon when it is setting.

So my innocent post elicited 5 replies from you all. Must be something here to understand since you all are trying so hard to make me look bad. I'm not going to fault you for making posts no one can understand - I've done it myself. The issue, as I see it, is simple. The boat moon is seen on the equator. It's like the Roman Empire. People used to say, "There's always been a Roman Empire and there will always be a Roman Empire." That was true until there wasn't a Roman Empire anymore. The boat moon is like that too. There always was a boat moon at the equator and there will always be a boat moon at the equator. Until there wasn't a boat moon on the equator. Instead there was a boat moon in Kansas ("we're not in Kansas anymore") and a boat moon in Seattle and a boat moon in the UK and a boat moon in Las Vegas.

I'm going to reply to all of you. This is just a teaser to let you know that we're not in Kansas anymore.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I appreciate the thought and effort you have put into your reply to me. The boat, smile moon (the tilt of the light on the moon) is not a winter phenomena. There are plenty of illustrations from all over the world, some of which I have supplied, to show that this phenomena does not know a season. The 'Winter Moon Path' theory is no theory. The example I gave from 43 degrees N latitude happened in March.

AND THE FOLLOWING...

Originally posted by luxordelphi
So my innocent post elicited 5 replies from you all. Must be something here to understand since you all are trying so hard to make me look bad. ...

I certainly hope you understand that failing to identify MARCH as WINTER in the Northern Hemisphere makes you look bad...there is NOTHING we have posted here in an attempt to make you look BAD...We agreed the OP posted a LEGITIMATE PICTURE!!! We attempted to explain why it is normal to see it...You ignored the explanation, performing simple addition and subtraction of the Sun's Ecliptic Plane and the Moon's Ecliptic Plane, in order to support the idea it should not be seen that way...Other participants have posted salient coordinates, displays (your claim of having the Sun absent is specious, as even a elementary school child would know where the sun is in the "Winter Path," sketch), and otherwise OVERWHELMING evidence and mathematics, clearly displaying the validity of the OP photo...Now, if you want to stop looking bad, then simply admit that March is Winter in the Northern Hemisphere...

Originally posted by luxordelphi
So my innocent post elicited 5 replies from you all. Must be something here to understand since you all are trying so hard to make me look bad.

I think we are trying to make you understand why you are in error, not make you look bad.

The boat moon is seen on the equator....

Yes. The setting moon looks like a boat at from the equator.

WHY? Because the equator is generally directly below the Moons orbital plane (not exactly, but close enough). HOWEVER, there are certain times of the year that the latitudes above and below the equator can be directly below the Moon's orbital plane instead of the equator.

Lets say on date "A", the equator is directly below the Moon's ecliptic. The setting Moon on that date will look very boat-like.

A few months later, on date "B", 30° North latitude may be directly under the Moon's orbital plane instead of the equator.

THEREFORE, on those occasions, the crescent Moon (as it sets in the west) will be tilted to almost horizontal, like a boat, from 30° North latitude. At that same time, as seen from higher latitudes (say from 45° North), the Moon may not look like a boat as it sets, but it will still be noticeably tilted.

The bottom line is that if you understand why the boat moon can be seen from the equator. then you should understand that there will be occasions during the year that the boat moon -- or a greatly tilted Moon -- will be seen from higher latitudes.

Can you guys do me a favor. Tell me how many times in the next 12 months the moon will be close to a boat appearance in las vegas. I mean a boat . no more tilted than the opening pic I posted. and tell me what months this boat will appear and how many times in each month for the upcoming year. Plz..

reply to post by CherubBaby


It varies smoothly, next month it will be even more tilted, then on January 25th, it's going to look like this.



It varies smoothly from day to day as well, so it will look similar on the days around there.

The moon sets tilted to the maximum amount once every 29 days. You just don't always see it, as the setting time varies by about an hour every night. You can calculate the boat moon as the fraction of those days you consider the angel to be "boat" (1/29) multiplied by the fraction of phases you consider to be waxing crescent say 2/29. so 1/((1/29)*(2/29)) = every 406 days.

For your criteria, I'd say you consider everything short of a half moon to be a crescent so 6/29 phases, and the angle in your photo is quite large, maybe again 6/29 so around 1/((6/29)*(6/29)) = 23 days per year (in clumps though, not regularly spaced, several of those will be around jan 25th, for example.).

Again, I'd recommend you get some kind of astronomy program that shows the phases of the moon.

An observer sees a boat moon on the equator because the moon is overhead. The moon has to be overhead for a boat moon. A boat moon is seen on the equator because that is where the moon is overhead.

The moon, in its' path, travels as much as 28.5 degrees N and S of the equator at 0 degrees. The moon has the potential to be overhead as far N as the middle of Baja, the middle of Mexico, the middle of the Gulf of Mexico and the S tip of Florida. Under the UK, the moon has the potential to be overhead as far N as the middle of Morocco and the middle of Algeria. Same thing in the S hemisphere only south. The moon has the potential to be overhead as far S as the middle of Australia for example. The moon is never overhead in Las Vegas, Seattle WA, UK or Kansas. These places are too far N. The moon never gets that far N on its' path.

answers.yahoo.com...

Why is the moon never directly overhead?

If you've never seen the Moon directly overhead, it's almost certain you've never seen the Sun directly overhead, either.

The Moon orbits at an angle that varies between 18 and 28 degrees relative to the equator. If you lived at 28 degrees latitude or lower (southern Florida or further South), the Moon could be located directly overhead. Or, if you lived in the Southern hemisphere above 28 degrees South latitude, you'd occasionally see the Moon directly overhead (Brazil, Peru, etc).

The Sun's position travels at an angle of 23 degrees relative to the equator. The Moon probably started out orbiting along the Earth's equator, but the Sun's gravity has pulled the Moon to within 5 degrees of it's own plane. That means the Moon's orbit varies between -5 and +5 degrees of the Sun's plane (actually, the plane of the Earth's orbit around the Sun).

answers.yahoo.com...

The orientation of the Moon's crescent also depends on the latitude of the observation site. Close to the equator, an observer can see a boat Moon.

answers.yahoo.com...

The line that connects the two points of the crescent Moon is always almost at right angles to the path of the Moon along the sky. If the Moon goes up almost straight from the horizon (as it does when seen from the equator), then the crescent appears horizontal. If the Moon rises at a shallow angle (as seen far from the equator), then it moves as well along the horizon towards the west, and then the crescent is mostly vertical. The Moon rises almost vertically as seen from the equator because the orbit of the Moon stands approximately above the equator.

www.ilovemedia.es...
www.astrosociety.org...

the point on the Earth directly under the Moon is never more than 29° north or south of the equator

Two or three days after new moon, a waxing crescent can be seen just to the east (left) of the Sun. It is most easily seen just after sunset, following the Sun closely down toward the western horizon. Notice that the "horns" of a crescent moon always point away from the Sun (alternatively, you can think of a crescent moon as a bow about to shoot an arrow toward the Sun). Also, since the Moon in a crescent phase--either waxing or waning--is close to the Sun on the sky, it can't be above the horizon at night unless it's shortly after sunset or before sunrise.

www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk...

In places close to the equator:

the first quarter will have the shape of the letter n (inverted U) when it rises, and the shape of letter U when it sets.

the last quarter would seem like the shape of letter U when it rises and the shape of the letter n (inverted U) when it sets.

www.opencourse.info...

For any position on the surface of the Earth, the point on the celestial sphere that is directly overhead is called the zenith.

Since the Earth and the celestial sphere are concentric, simple geometry shows that the zenith will always have a declination equal to the latitude of the observer (such as for Atlanta in the picture).

Forgot to say: I agree with the OP. Something is wrong.