The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

Yes the orbits are "chaotic" in that you can't calculate the precise positions over long periods of time. But those periods are or the order of millions of years with an accuracy of 0.1%

en.wikipedia.org...

The planets' orbits are chaotic over longer timescales, such that the whole Solar System possesses a Lyapunov time in the range of 2–230 million years.[3] In all cases this means that the position of a planet along its orbit ultimately becomes impossible to predict with any certainty

And a chaotic orbit in a plane (the ecliptic) does not change the angles, only the distances.

Saying nobody can do the math only applies if you want to know where the earth is in a million years. You can certainly do the math to see where the earth, the sun, and the moon will be next week, next year, next century. People do it all the time. They do it with enough accuracy to fly a rocket to mars. They do it with enough accuracy to shoot a laser at a target on the moon, bounce it back, and measure the distance accurate to a centimeter. They do it so they can predict an eclipse to the second from decades earlier.

There's nothing wrong with the solar system. Nothing unexpected has changed. This is just an odd looking moon that you don't see very often.

reply to post by Uncinus


Everything you say , you cannot defend or sell it to someone and say you would litterally bet your life on it. Why? Because tonight, tomorrow, at this moment things could change and are changing. I have seen an eclipse announced in the early 2000's on Yahoo news that NEVER TOOK PLACE, and just in case someone wants to argue, the sky was clear and I was where I was supposed to be as well as my wife and neighbors etc and it never took place and Yahoo never metioned it. The story even disappeared conveniently. Can I prove it? No Did i happen ? Yes. Do I have people that would testify that I am telling the truth? Yes. Do you believe me? I don't know but regardless it happens. You can spin it anyway you want but you will never be able to prove your right and they are wrong. Period. The best you will ever get is someone agreeing with you and someone disagreeing with you.

reply to post by Uncinus


I'm sorry you couldn't do me the courtesy of reading my post. Sorry also that you seem to think that I want to use Wikipedia as my bible as much as you do. Sorry that everything I've said has gone unread. Sorry you want to cling to impossible 'Winter Moon Path' theories long after you have been shown that the smile moon at diverse latitudes has nothing to do with winter. Your theories and explanations and those of your group are laughable. Your diagrams put the observer in either a scenario without a sun or in outer space. Neither has any resemblance to the discussion at hand. You all got this thread changed to Skunk Works. I can understand why. It was so you all could continue with your diagrams without a sun and your outer space scenarios.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Uncinus

 

Everything you say , you cannot defend or sell it to someone and say you would litterally bet your life on it. Why? Because tonight, tomorrow, at this moment things could change and are changing. I have seen an eclipse announced in the early 2000's on Yahoo news that NEVER TOOK PLACE, and just in case someone wants to argue, the sky was clear and I was where I was supposed to be as well as my wife and neighbors etc and it never took place and Yahoo never metioned it. The story even disappeared conveniently. Can I prove it? No Did i happen ? Yes. Do I have people that would testify that I am telling the truth? Yes. Do you believe me? I don't know but regardless it happens. You can spin it anyway you want but you will never be able to prove your right and they are wrong. Period. The best you will ever get is someone agreeing with you and someone disagreeing with you.

Luckily astronomy is on thing where you don't have to take the word of the PTB. You can actually check it for yourself. Millions of amateur astronomers do this every day. They seem to have failed to notice anything wrong.

Find an astronomer, tell them about this eclipse that did not happen. They will explain it.

Consider, there are MANY computer programs that let you calculate these things. They calculate for the future and the past. They all agree.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus

 

I'm sorry you couldn't do me the courtesy of reading my post. Sorry also that you seem to think that I want to use Wikipedia as my bible as much as you do. Sorry that everything I've said has gone unread. Sorry you want to cling to impossible 'Winter Moon Path' theories long after you have been shown that the smile moon at diverse latitudes has nothing to do with winter. Your theories and explanations and those of your group are laughable. Your diagrams put the observer in either a scenario without a sun or in outer space. Neither has any resemblance to the discussion at hand. You all got this thread changed to Skunk Works. I can understand why. It was so you all could continue with your diagrams without a sun and your outer space scenarios.

I read your post. I'm very familiar with chaotic motion. It's one of my favorite subjects ever since I read Chaos by James Gleick in 1988. I'm very familiar with the N-body problem, I've written several simulations of such systems.

Chaos has nothing to do with what you are seeing. The angle and phase of the moon are utterly predictable for the next thousand years.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
...Your diagrams put the observer in either a scenario without a sun or in outer space. Neither has any resemblance to the discussion at hand. You all got this thread changed to Skunk Works. I can understand why. It was so you all could continue with your diagrams without a sun and your outer space scenarios.

Pleas explain why the location of the Sun is important to understanding why the Moon appears to tilt and flip from moon-rise to moon-set. I understand that the location of the sun relative to the moon is what gives that Moon its phases, but the perceived tilt of the moon-set relative to the moon-rise can even be seen when there is a full moon.



If the Sun location is important to understanding this tilting effect, then why does the same effect happen with the constellations, such as Orion?

The reason the Moon seems to tilt and "flip over" from moon rise to moon set is the same reason the constellations (such as Orion -- pictured here) seems to flip over from rising to setting. Orion takes a path very similar to the moon across the night sky, since they are both close to the ecliptic plane.

Here is what Orion looks like this time of the year (from where I live at 41.5° N latitude) when it is rising in the east. Notice that Orion is lying on his back, and his "bow" (which he is holding in his left hand) rises first, before the rest of him:




Here is what Orion looks like a few hours later when looking south. Orion is standing straight up and down:




And a few hours later again, when Orion is getting ready to set. Notice now that Orion has seemed to "flip over", and he is now sort of face down, and the bow in his left hand will be among the first part of the constellation to set:




The Sun has nothing to do with what Orion looks like as it moves across the night sky between rising and setting, but the "flipping" effect still occurred. Orion looks "tilted" when it sets as opposed to when it is high in the sky. A similar thing happens with the Moon for similar reasons.

Please explain what problems you have with these graphics.

reply to post by CherubBaby


Thank you for at least admitting this is all an exercise in futility. And I mean that genuinely without any sarcasm involved. There simply is no amount of data, graphs, charts, whatever, to be posted in this thread that will change your mind.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


The sun is important to show if the moon is in an established position or has departed from established parameters. That is why the diagrams, unless they are from an outer space perspective, do not show the sun. Showing the sun would be devastating to the argument that all this falls within an established order parameter.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

The sun is important to show if the moon is in an established position or has departed from established parameters. That is why the diagrams, unless they are from an outer space perspective, do not show the sun. Showing the sun would be devastating to the argument that all this falls within an established order parameter.

I always show the lit and shadowed portions of the Moon and Earth. You can infer the location of the sun from that...

...but my question about the apparent "flipping" of the Orion constellation as seen from 41.5° (my home) is still unanswered. If the Constellation of Orion can appear to flip somewhat from rising to setting (as shown in my post above), then why don't you think the Moon can appear to do the same thing?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Stop it. We're talking about the tilt of the moon. When is MY question going to get answered? I want to know why the Goddard Space Flight Center puts out a graphic showing the "Moon's Winter Path" when the smile moon is observed in diverse latitudes and in all seasons?

reply to post by Uncinus


You claim to be familiar with everything it would seem on this subject. Are you familiar with the concept of A F I R I H O E's???? Obviously not.

reply to post by luxordelphi


Where's the sun in the photographs?

It's a little hard to show the sun on a 2D image, given the 3D natur of the solar system. Right now with a full moon, the sun is 180 degrees away from the moon. How do you draw that, when it's behind you.

That's why solar system simulators are quite useful, you can move the viewpoint, and adjust the view angle. I would highly recommend you try one. I've been using SkySafari on the Mac.



It can show you what the moon should look like at any time from any location.

For example, CherubBaby's moon, 12:55AM pst:



And how science tells us it should look at that time:



So perfectly normal.

I can do that for any time and location. There is nothing wrong with the moon. This is how it is supposed to look.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Uncinus

 

You claim to be familiar with everything it would seem on this subject. Are you familiar with the concept of A F I R I H O E's???? Obviously not.

I never claimed to be familiar with everything. I've no idea what A F I R I H O E is.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

Stop it. We're talking about the tilt of the moon. When is MY question going to get answered? I want to know why the Goddard Space Flight Center puts out a graphic showing the "Moon's Winter Path" when the smile moon is observed in diverse latitudes and in all seasons?

What exactly is the problem there?

The setting moon takes a different path in winter. Surely that's not being disputed. It's like the sun in that regard. You know the sun is higher in the sky in summer. Same kind of thing.

Hey guys, do you enjoy wee-weeing into the wind?

You must, BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT BUDGE.

Holy smokes...

I see well let me give an easier concept. T I O F I F.. If your reading this, you have the answer.

reply to post by Uncinus


I'll be brief. We all know what the moon looked like. We saw it in the OP's post. I don't need your computer generated graphic. What does this have to do with your 'Moon's Winter Path' theory? What does it have to do with why you had this thread moved to Skunk Works? What does it have to do with the smile moon being seen all over the globe at different latitudes in different seasons?

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus

 

I'll be brief. We all know what the moon looked like. We saw it in the OP's post. I don't need your computer generated graphic. What does this have to do with your 'Moon's Winter Path' theory? What does it have to do with why you had this thread moved to Skunk Works? What does it have to do with the smile moon being seen all over the globe at different latitudes in different seasons?

What it has to do with it is that it's a mathematical model that shows how the moon should look at different times from different locations.

If something had changed, then the model would not work, and the images would not match.

But since the images match, then nothing has changed.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
I see well let me give an easier concept. T I O F I F.. If your reading this, you have the answer.

edit on 9-11-2011 by CherubBaby because: (no reason given)

I'm afraid I have no idea what those letters mean. Perhaps you could just tell me?

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I appreciate the thought and effort you have put into your reply to me. The boat, smile moon (the tilt of the light on the moon) is not a winter phenomena. There are plenty of illustrations from all over the world, some of which I have supplied, to show that this phenomena does not know a season. The 'Winter Moon Path' theory is no theory. The example I gave from 43 degrees N latitude happened in March.
.

When is winter in the Northern Hemisphere? August? I cannot believe you are still arguing this when you have no clue about seasons...