The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

Like many such misconceptions, odd ideas about the moon have bedeviled astronomers for ages. Here's one from 110 years ago:

books.google.com...=onepage&q=%22wet%20moon%22%20crescent&f=false

A gentleman residing in the northern part of Michigan, who is interested in astronomy, referring to the Moon and weather and requesting an explanation of the "wet" and "dry" Moon in a letter to the writer, says: "If I may hope for a reply, perhaps you will also inform me why the new Moon at times presents the appearance of having her horns upturned, and at others as though resting upon one of them, thus making what is called the wet or dry Moon. This is the only Moon sign that has ever seemed to me at all to depended upon, but if there is nothing in it, I should like it kicked away," A number of similar inquiries have been addressed to me, both verbally and in writing, and they afford a fair illustration of the misapprehension—not to say ignorance—regarding the subject which prevails throughout the country, even among persons of education and general intelligence upon most branches of learning except physical science, and especially astrononvy, which is sadly neglected in this mercenary age of the world.—Battle Creek Moon, Battle Creeck, Mich., Sept. 4, 1901.

If you don't trust computers, perhaps this will help:



Full manual available:

books.google.com...=onepage&q=%22wet%20moon%22%20crescent&f=false

reply to post by Uncinus


luxor firmly established this: absolutely zero clue about basic seasonal changes, stated possession of photographic evidence taken in the Northern Hemisphere in March (which also happens to be WINTER); and, little to no imagination (i.e., incapable of visualizing the position of the sun relative to a picture of a Moon and Earth in a model) The bottom line, luxor is convinced people are liars if they disagree...and incapable of understanding very basic understanding of celestial mechanics...luxor trusts computers to the point of being able to gain information in complete agreement with his/her point of view...

reply to post by Uncinus


OMG!!! Not only has the phenomenon of the Wet and Dry Moon suddenly appeared in this century, it appears as if it waits EVERY HUNDRED YEARS OR SO to rear its ugly head...HOLY COW!!! RUN FOR YOUR COLLECTIVIST LIVES!!! Now, I need to double check my 1964 set of Collier's and Funk and Wagnalls to see if their is an intermediary time frame...maybe every 50 years...

Originally posted by jeichelberg
reply to post by Uncinus

 

luxor firmly established this: absolutely zero clue about basic seasonal changes, stated possession of photographic evidence taken in the Northern Hemisphere in March (which also happens to be WINTER); and, little to no imagination (i.e., incapable of visualizing the position of the sun relative to a picture of a Moon and Earth in a model) The bottom line, luxor is convinced people are liars if they disagree...and incapable of understanding very basic understanding of celestial mechanics...luxor trusts computers to the point of being able to gain information in complete agreement with his/her point of view...

edit on 11/10/2011 by jeichelberg because: (no reason given)

No no no, jeichelberg, I never called the people who disagree with me liars. I called them poets, artists and visionaries. And I'm happy with that assessment.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
I have shown photos, pictures, shots that actual people actually took of a boat moon at latitudes where none had ever been seen before. You all have shown graphics and computer generated simulations missing a sun and from outer space perspectives. I have shown photos of this boat moon in all seasons. You all have come back with some wierd Goddard Space Flight graphic showing the 'Moon's Winter Path.' I have produced links and eywitness observation to show that the boat moon is something a person could expect to see at the equator. I have produced stories of people visiting the equator from Denver and other locations who were surprised to see the moon this way NEVER HAVING SEEN IT LIKE THAT BEFORE.

It's fun to argue with you all. After awhile though I just have to say some people don't have a scientific mind because they are unable to observe. Still - you all could be artists, poets - these are right brain functions. And they are valued in our society. I value them myself. An artists' visions are often of the future. What you all see is hopefully a return to the established order after all the dust settles. So there you go, my dears, you are visionaries of the future but, sadly, not observant of the present.

edit on 10-11-2011 by luxordelphi because: change left to right brain - sorry - slightly dyslexic

lol

the education level here worries me sometimes

Im sorry tht this is all 'new' to you and that you are counting on the 'few' people that say 'oh wow ive never seen that before'

seriously, we get threads like that all the time here...someone saying 'something is not right' but yaknow what is funny....they cant tell us, what makes it 'not right' from what should be right.

so tell me, give me a image, picture....of what the moon should look like, show me where the sun should be in relation to the moon, to show us that something is wrong....because my friend, you are only lacking the understanding of it all

there are many things that effect the cycles and orders...there are small cycles and large cycles and these all mesh together as well to create what we call 'odd things' now and then

there are pictures back in the 1980 and 1990 of these moons at different latitudes...it IS more normal at equator, but that is just for the regular cycles of the sun and moon....there are reasons why sometimes you can get the boat moon somewhere else besides the equator and it has to do with the orientation of the earth and sun to the moon.

the reason computer models teach us and we can use them is because astronomy is based on math, our knowledge of the orbits, cycles, and orders....and by using the known pth of the moon, sun, and earth....we see that what we are seeing on the reflection from the moon, is perfectly fine considering the orientation of the sun and earth. actually, it was expected, for this past spring it was made clear that the sun and moon were pretty much setting in a 'line' in the west instead at a angle. so this tells us that we are in season again, for the boat moons and we watch over the months, as winter approaches and the angel changes...that the sun will start to set at a slight angle then what the moon sets....causing the 'angle crescent' and not the true boat moon crescent. from what i remember learning about this...is that when the boat moon can be seen elsewhere besides the equator...its all due to orientation and that the 'boat moon' will be able to be seen for several years, through the spring and fall months.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hello You obvoiusly have not read the thread. If you had you wouldn't be asking such a redundant request.

reply to post by CherubBaby


How do you explain that the moon's orientation looks normal from a polar aligned perspective?

reply to post by luxordelphi

I have produced links and eywitness observation to show that the boat moon is something a person could expect to see at the equator.

From this comment and others like it I get the feeling that you think the Moon orbits above Earth's equator and therefore the boat Moon should only be visible from that perspective. Just to be clear I would like to point out that this is not what happens.

The Moon's orbit around Earth is at around a 5° angle to the ecliptic (the path Earth takes around the Sun) and the Moon's inclination to the ecliptic rotates in an 18.6 year cycle. Earth's axial tilt to the ecliptic is around 23.44° which rotates in a 26,000 year cycle.

So if the Moon is at its highest inclination during winter then it will pass over the 28th parallel at night (28.5° actually) and around the 18th parallel during the day. Since the Moon's farthest inclination to the ecliptic this year was around the first of November, when the Moon was a crescent and the Earth is close to its winter solstice, the boat Moon is visible in the northern latitudes. In other words the crescent Moon was at the highest point in the moon's inclined orbit at near Earth's winter solstice. This means that this is the perfect time to see the boat Moon in the northern latitudes.

Now that the Moon is waning and passing the descending node, moving below the ecliptic, we will see the Moon traverse across lower latitudes as seen from the northern hemisphere. The opposite will be true for observers in the southern hemisphere.

reply to post by luxordelphi


I never said you called anyone a liar...I said you are demonstrating (through your posts) you are convinced they are liars...By the way, do you have a basic understanding of the seasons yet?

reply to post by Devino


Please see one of my previous posts wherein I give links as to why, when and where the moon can be seen overhead. This should clear up any concern you may have about whether or not I know where the moon is both now and in the past and why it is there both now and in the past. LXD

reply to post by luxordelphi


So are you saying that RIGHT NOW the moon is in the wrong place? Or did it move back to the correct place?

If it's in the wrong place now, it should be a very simple matter to demonstrate it.

reply to post by luxordelphi


I, for one, am still waiting on you to explain your lack of knowledge concerning the seasons here on Earth, let alone tell us how the Moon could not be viewed as a boat here on Earth...once you do that, then you might be able to tell us something about outer space objects...

reply to post by jeichelberg


Maybe you need to think about the fact and I will say fact again, that noone is trying to tell you anything or cares to prove anything to you. What tech school did you go to or are you a speaker somewhere I can get tickets to hear you address some sell out crowd . What you believe is your business I dont and haven't seen anyone in this thread ask you or anyone else that shares your opinions for any proof. Who made you someone that I /we/ they have to show proof to. Your not that important for that effort. Is that proof enough?

reply to post by luxordelphi

Not sure if this is the previous post you are referring to... I think I see where you were going with this and I see a possible problem with your reasoning.

In that post you show that the Moon can traverse as high as 28°N (actually 28.5°N), no problems there. Then you show boat Moon pictures from latitudes as far north as Seattle which proves that this can be observed in Seattle. No problem here.

The problem I see here is in the possible assumption that during equinox, when the Sun passes over the equator during mid day (noon) that the Moon should also pass over the equator when it sets 6 hours later. Depending on the Moon's inclination at this point it could be as high as 28° thus being closer to Seattle than the equator. The ecliptic is over the equator at equinoxes during Noon and midnight. At 6PM and 6AM the ecliptic is at 23.44°N and S.

From your post here I don't see a problem with the Moon's position or motions. When I first read this post I thought you were in favor of this assessment.

I think the question is how far away can the boat moon be seen from its traversing latitude?

Originally posted by Devino
reply to post by luxordelphi

 

Not sure if this is the previous post you are referring to... I think I see where you were going with this and I see a possible problem with your reasoning.

In that post you show that the Moon can traverse as high as 28°N (actually 28.5°N), no problems there. Then you show boat Moon pictures from latitudes as far north as Seattle which proves that this can be observed in Seattle. No problem here.

The problem I see here is in the possible assumption that during equinox, when the Sun passes over the equator during mid day (noon) that the Moon should also pass over the equator when it sets 6 hours later. Depending on the Moon's inclination at this point it could be as high as 28° thus being closer to Seattle than the equator. The ecliptic is over the equator at equinoxes during Noon and midnight. At 6PM and 6AM the ecliptic is at 23.44°N and S.

From your post here I don't see a problem with the Moon's position or motions. When I first read this post I thought you were in favor of this assessment.

I think the question is how far away can the boat moon be seen from its traversing latitude?

There you go buddy and thank you for reading my posts. You are a smart cookie. The boat moon or smile moon or wet moon or bowl moon or Cheshire moon describes a moon that has all the light on the bottom - next to the horizon. Looking at it straight on it is like a smile. When it gets a little fuller it is like a cup that is filling up. We, in the mid-latitudes, of the northern hemisphere, are used to seeing the moon tilted so that a picture of a child dangling their feet over one edge is a normal and recognizable thing. Like the tilt in the DreamWorks logo seen here: DreamWorks logo and like the tilt in this photo taken in NY: www.binghamton.edu...

Since about 2002 or 2003 this has not been the case. The moon has been seen as a smile or a cup filling up when viewing it normally - straight on - in many different northern locations. Like Washington State and in the UK. These locations, including Las Vegas at 36 degrees N are far from the equator. The equator is at 0 degrees. The equator runs through Ecuador, Bolivia and Brazil in S. America. Under the UK the equator runs beneath Liberia, Cote d'Ivoire and Ghana in Africa. This boat moon is something that is seen at the equator. Not in Las Vegas, Washington State and in the UK. Here's a shot of the boat moon from the NASA site with a story called 'Crescent Moon Alert': science.nasa.gov...

This picture is from Kansas. Kansas is at 39 degrees N. It is far from the equator at 0 degrees. The equator runs through Ecuador, Bolivia and Brazil in S America. This is how the moon should look on the equator - a smile, boat. This is not how it should look in Kansas. The date was April 4, 2008. So there you go and if you really want to help me out, tell me what the latitude was for the moon on that date and what the latitude was for the sun on that date at evening. That's it. I'm not saying it can't happen because it's obviously happening. I'm saying that the moon and/or sun and/or earth need to have departed from established parameters for this to occur. There have been strings of months at a time when this has happened. In all seasons.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
...We, in the mid-latitudes, of the northern hemisphere, are used to seeing the moon tilted so that a picture of a child dangling their feet over one edge is a normal and recognizable thing. Like the tilt in the DreamWorks logo seen here: ...

Not when it is close to the horizon (such as when it is setting). On many occasions when the Moon is close to the horizon, we may see the Moon tilted. Sometimes the tilt is more noticeable than other times.

Think of it this way:If the Sun is lighting up the moon, and the Sun is generally setting toward the west as seen from earth, then the lit portion of the Moon will be facing generally toward the west -- towards the sun.

When the Moon is high in the sky, near the apex of its nightly path across the sky, people in the mid-latitudes will be looking at the moon facing south, and the lit portion will be on the "right" side of the Moon -- the side toward the sun in the west.

NOW...
Let's consider this same moon when it is setting. The Moon is low in the western-ish sky, and the sun is generally below the Moon, below the horizon. Considering where the Sun is, what direction do you think the lit portion of the Moon wiill be facing. Obviously, it will be facing generally more downward, toward the sun below the horizon.

During different seasons and during different moon phases, the relationship of the Moon and Sun can vary slightly, so that's why the winter first waxing crescent will look close to horizontal at Moonset (even from mid-latitudes) than the summer waking crescent. However, even the Summer waxing crescent could look tilted about 30° from vertical when it is setting near the west, because the Sun is below the horizon, also in the west.

I admit that when the Moon is high in the sky, people at the mid-latitudes will never see it as a boat moon. Only when it is lower in the sky toward the East or West.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Complete nonsense. I'm a hard numbers kind of person. Give me those latitudes. Where is the sun (latitude) when this is happening and where is the moon (latitude) when this is happening. Anything else is just a side-step. Give me the numbers. Then we'll talk.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

Complete nonsense. I'm a hard numbers kind of person. Give me those latitudes. Where is the sun (latitude) when this is happening and where is the moon (latitude) when this is happening. Anything else is just a side-step. Give me the numbers. Then we'll talk.

Can you first explain why it is "complete nonsense"?

Can you tell me why you think the lit part of the setting waxing crescent Moon should NOT face toward the sun below the western horizon?

Please explain why a waxing crescent Moon on the horizon should have a lit portion facing mostly towards the north.



EDIT TO ADD:
Actually, I already provided the numbers to you in my graphic showing the Earth's tilt in relation to the inclination of Moon's orbital plane, and how the Mid-latitudes are pointed toward that orbital plane on very late fall / winter / very early spring nights.