"Alcohol-The cause AND solution to all of lifes problems"I think it should be banned!

ATS is clearly on a downhill slide when a thread like this gets this many stars and flags...Do we really need to debate and give such attention to an issue that can be (and has been on the first page already) summed up so simply:

1) Alcohol, like a kitchen knife, can be a good thing when used properly (responsible social drinking and cutting food, respectively) and can be a bad thing when used wrongly (frequently drinking to excess and stabbing a person out of revenge, respectively)

2) It is not the states job to decide what substances I may or may not put into my own body so long as I don't harm anyone else in the process.

I don't particularly care for many drugs and the effects they have on people but I know better than to think that the answer is running to the nanny state as if it's some magical larger than life parent figure that I have to tattle tale to will make them go away.

Honestly, what do you people have against personal responsibility for yourself and others? It's not as if the state has EVER managed to solve any such personal issue dealing with lifestyle choice. It's time to grow up. Enough already with the crying to the government (in a whiny child voice while pointing a finger) "He's doing something I don't approve of....Make it go away!! Now!"

Originally posted by AllUrChips

Originally posted by ShedAlert
That is also the theory of the majority of people. It's pretty blatant as to why it isn't illegal, and you've pretty much averagely summed it up.

Sorry in all my ramblings I forgot to mention I think it should be ILLEGAL, sorry for the mistake

The U.S. has been there, tried it. One reason prohibition could never work is complex, but for the most part. 1: It is an ancient and accepted practice in many cultures. And while other drugs are accepted more here-or-there, this one is believed to be about the oldest used by people widely. But MUCH more important is; 2: Take about anything that grows, including food crops, and with a little, time/heat, stir and filter the gunk out, and you've got hooch. Or beer or fine wine. Ban it, and we have the reason the Mob become so ungodly rich. Plus I find it arrogant for some to say, let alone alone really believe "their moral insight" is superior to someone else. (I'm quite libertarian). As a recovering alcoholic, I know how dangerous it can be. Knowing something about medicine I've seen chronic drinkers, drug abusers, and smokers on autopsy. See that and you'll want to control your self.

But at the end of the day if it's drinking or something else, it only bothers me when your behavior is a threat to others (DUI, etc). Thats were I draw the line.

We tried that before. Remember the 1930's?
Making it illegal just brings back bootlegging (this killed and blinded many people) and voilence.

More laws do not make more safe. Take gun laws. DC and Chicago have strict gun laws and very high gun crime.

It will not work.

It is pretty obvious that the OP and those who agree with him/her have good hearts that are unfortunately
in the wrong place.

They suffer from a very immature mindset that most of our world suffers from.
The need to control others can disguise itself as a very altruistic virtue.

"After all, it is for the good of society that we ban alcohol"

I have heard some of the most solid reasons backed up by facts and statistics you could possibly ask for
if you were truely wanting a clear understanding of this issue.


Sadly, it ALL goes un-noticed because when someone has the unquenchable thirst for control over others,
all of the facts and statistics in the world won't make a difference to a mind that is closed for buisness.


It is abundantly clear that the prohibition of alcohol has already been tried and was a miserable failure. Much the same as the "war on drugs" is.
However, the proponents of a prohibition do NOT want to acknowledge these facts.
What they WILL do is answer questions with questions which is a diversionary tactic as old as humanity itself and one I recognise readily as my wife keeps me on my toes with it all of the time.


This is due to the fact that you can NOT suppress the human need to "feel good" or the need to avoid feeling bad. You may as well try to ban sex. it ain't gonna happen. You can spend as much money as you can possibly print and you may as well throw it all into a bottomless pit. People will take what they need to take and spend what they need to spend in order to feel the way they need to feel.

This is the reason you WILL NEVER stamp out prostitution,drugs,alcohol,caffine,nicotine,porn or anything else that people engauge in to make themselves feel the way they need to feel.
These are all victimless crimes engauged in by consenting adults who want to make themselves feel the way they want to feel.

Could a kid engauge in any of these?
Sure.
They can also go for a joy ride in the family car after mom and dad fall asleep but we can't very well ban cars,..........or can we?

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!!
Try as you might, despise your overwhelming desire to control what people put into their bodies, YOU WILL NEVER SUCCEED!!!! I am truely sorry. You are going to have to find another avenue to vent your desire for control because this one is a dead end street I'm afraid.


I am ready to be bombarded with questions by the control freaks because I understand that they WILL NOT adress ANYTHING I just said. What they will do is ask closed ended rhetorical questions with NO desire to actually hear, listen to, and understand the answers.

reply to post by AllUrChips

Apologies if I restate something that was brought up earlier, I'm simply writing my first response to this thread.

My theory is that it is legal because it helps keep people just drinkin the stress away, and raises unimagineable amounts of revenue. Most crimes happen because of alcohol.

If it were legal for the reason you state then why would any material object be illicit? As for your second statement, well that is simply immaterial speculation unless you show genuine statistics.

I'm am hugely in favour of stopping alcohol being put in a different category to any other drug- it is simply culturally engrained.However, despite your plea not to, if we're to have an honest discussion about the subject then ALL substances/ chemicals must be considered- that includes paracetamol, carbon monoxide, chlorine in swimming pools, caffeine, etc. maybe even glucose! Why is one chemical structure 'wrong' and another not so? When a drug is first synthesised is it 'bad' from the start or does it become so because of culural response?

Is morphine, or diamorphine, a terrible thing when used to reduce pain in a terminal cancer patient? If not why not? Regardless of details the drug is always used for one reason which is to make an individual feel better than prior to taking it- whether that is reducing pain or using it recreationally.

As for health concerns or the whole "It's for their own good!" argument, then I think there is once more a holistic view which is being ignored. If that is a valid argument then why are only these things you consume liable to be banned? Sport, driving, DIY, travel, using a computer, sex etc. all carry a significant potential for harm- should they be similiarly considered?

Then finally of course we have history. The prohibition and 'war on drugs' are hardly shining endorsements for such a move. Even in places such as Saudi Arabia where alcohol possession and use would get you far more severe punishments than we in the west would expect there are still significant use, manufacturing, distribution and profiteering underground in these places.

I would love an honest reply to these points and hear others' views on them.

reply to post by Screwed


Uh, should we ban hills because kids could fall off them? NOT THE POINT. I really dont understand how you people cannot take even a minute to comprehend what you read, or do you even read ALL of the posts? This thread is not about kids taking the car keys? If you like, go ahead and start your own thread on that. This is about ALCOHOL! My point is that tradgedies are happening everyday constantly from abuse of children, spouses, to drunk drivers killing people, to teenaged kids drinking EVERY weekend at least, and getting knocked up and stds, yes people, you are blind if you think this should be up to the parents. If the crap wasnt around it would not be getting into the wrong hands. WHICH IT DOES ALL THE TIME. Not isolated it is poisoning the future and again, I know you people will argue your point and thats fine. However, at the end of the day, I am not in support of a poison that does so much damage, you are

reply to post by AllUrChips

Uh, should we ban hills because kids could fall off them? NOT THE POINT. I really dont understand how you people cannot take even a minute to comprehend what you read, or do you even read ALL of the posts? This thread is not about kids taking the car keys? If you like, go ahead and start your own thread on that. This is about ALCOHOL! My point is that tradgedies are happening everyday constantly from abuse of children, spouses, to drunk drivers killing people, to teenaged kids drinking EVERY weekend at least, and getting knocked up and stds, yes people, you are blind if you think this should be up to the parents. If the crap wasnt around it would not be getting into the wrong hands. WHICH IT DOES ALL THE TIME. Not isolated it is poisoning the future and again, I know you people will argue your point and thats fine. However, at the end of the day, I am not in support of a poison that does so much damage, you are

Apologies on replying to something not directed at me and before my post has been replied to but I thought this post was a little ...well, self- righteous. Yes, alcohol can be a catalyst for horrible acts/ events, but you simply targeting those whilst ignoring everything else is entirely disingenuous.

I thought this would be an interesting article for this topic: www.bbc.co.uk... .

The argument isn't "can alcohol be detrimental to your health?" but "Is it justified to ban something because of potential to be bad for your health?" and whether that would in fact help people's health- that is what you must answer. If health risk is in fact the motivation for all this that is.

reply to post by yes4141


Ok, Im not going to be goaded into discussing illicit drugs but let me ask you? Arent they banned for a reason? Yes or no?

reply to post by AllUrChips


Did you not read anything I wrote? Why do you think there is such a seperation between alcohol and any other drug?

Yes, of course there is a reason. The question is whether they are valid, objective reasons rather than reactionary, uninformed reasons motivated by reasons other than people's safety.

No alcohol is just fine if we take it off the shelf something else worse will take its place. I think you are wrong about alcohol its the people behind the bottle. If they would stay home and not drive we would be just fine. and as far as the other stuff bad people do bad things with or without alcohol and for that matter if there were no booz there would be alot more drugs or other things i'm sure. boy this subject is making me want to have a fire and a box of booz. peace and love out.

reply to post by AllUrChips


You clearly just want to argue and impose your personal morals on others. WHAT is the point in this thread besides getting you some attention? First off no matter what you say here, what difference will it make? Zero, alcohol is not going to get outlawed because some random dude on ATS says so. Second, and more importantly, perhaps if you just wanted an honest debate on the value of alcohol so you could have your pointless arguments and get your validation from like minded individuals, that is one thing and perhaps ok. But, that's not how you started this thread, what you said in your OP was utterly ridiculous, dishonest and crossed the line.

You didn't just say "hey I'm a self righteous dude who thinks the world should conform to my vision of how it should be and ban alcohol, lets discuss for argument's sake". No, you had to go and pull the conspiracy card for no reason at all and with zero evidence to back it up. Like honestly, did you really just suggest a "theory" that alcohol being legal is a planned to keep people drinking the stress away yadayada and "make money" (well DUH.. every products job is to make money for the seller how is that even a "theory" or worth mentioning? Is soap a conspiracy then because it makes money? DUNDUNDUN).

Alcohol has been "legal" for THOUSANDS of years across THOUSANDS of different nations/empires/cultures. Are you really suggesting this could possibly be a conspiracy... that there is some nefarious group making the laws to make alcohol legal across all these countries over all these years. Not everything is a conspiracy, get over it. Trying to make everything out as some nefarious conspiracy just to back up your self righteous views is just sad and dishonest.

Alcohol is legal because people enjoy it, there's risks to many "legal" things in life, a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions not a beverage, and most importantly because its been legal for thousands of years for billions of people and suddenly taking that away now because some people abuse it, like almost anything else can be abused, is like taking away another human right in the interest of "safety" and "home security". Take away all the pleasures in life and pretty soon we'll just be living in 1984 or worse, is that what you want?

Yes it makes a lot of money, but short term and according to your logic it would make more sense to make it illegal as if it does cause the bum on the street to stay on the street well he is not supporting the economy and the guy who gets in a car wreck is not making or spending money in jail but rather costing us to pay for him to be there. However it comes down to choice, everyone at first chooses to drink knowing the risks, some are more biologically prone to addiction than others who can handle themselves. Its funny there are people on different sides of the line all the time on issues fighting to make law out of them when more laws is less freedom when isnt it really freedom that we are after.

Besides people would resort back to moonshine anways

reply to post by darkest4


I guess much like your arguing YOUR morals and opinions. Its a right we both have so whats the problem? Why am I the one that is off my rocker for pleading MY case?

reply to post by AllUrChips


You don't seem to actually want to discuss it as you ignore all points raised. It seems this thread is simply your way of self- congratulation rather than actually investigating the issue.

Your proposal is to criminalise alcohol yet you won't discuss (currently) illegal drugs when they are quite simply a great deal of test results on whether it is likely to be successful which you are actively ignoring.

reply to post by AllUrChips


Because my personal "morals" are not impeding your life and follow the established law of thousands of nations over thousands of years, thus I'm not trying to force them on you, they already exist for a very long time. No one is forcing you to drink alcohol. Forcing people not to drink it because you, and perhaps .1%, of the worlds population, think its too "evil", is forcing the opinion of very, very few on very very many. Look what happened with the prohibition, they tried that, and it forced more harm than good, all it did was make tons more people into "criminals". It clearly doesn't work.

If a majority of people agreed with you then perhaps you'd have some traction to make an argument but they don't and billions of people throughout time people have drunk alcohol, most responsibility, some not, but there's going to be bad eggs who abuse something in some way no matter what it is, the problem is some people are just bad, not alcohol. Things like drunk driving ARE illegal, blame the asshole who insisted on driving while drunk and breaking the law, not the alcohol itself.

Furthermore, once again, I didn't even really have an issue with you if you wanted an honest discussion about if alcohol is worthy or not. But you didn't want that, you slammed it, made claims without proof, claimed its "cause of all life's problems" (rofl) and then worse of all tried to make it into a ridiculous conspiracy with your "theory" which had no truth, evidence or facts to back it up. As the guy above says you're just trying to flex what you think is your moral superiority and self congratulate yourself rather than even have an honest discussion. You just want attention, that's all.

reply to post by AllUrChips


too drunk

didn't read.

3rd line.

Originally posted by yes4141
reply to post by AllUrChips

 

You don't seem to actually want to discuss it as you ignore all points raised. It seems this thread is simply your way of self- congratulation rather than actually investigating the issue.

Your proposal is to criminalise alcohol yet you won't discuss (currently) illegal drugs when they are quite simply a great deal of test results on whether it is likely to be successful which you are actively ignoring.

Because you cannot discuss (currently) illegal drugs not so much as a mention on this site And I am actively ignoring these repetetive posts! Yes I know all about prohibition, all that stuff, but really it is you that are not discussing my points, just bashing them.

Originally posted by AllUrChips

Originally posted by ShedAlert
That is also the theory of the majority of people. It's pretty blatant as to why it isn't illegal, and you've pretty much averagely summed it up.

Sorry in all my ramblings I forgot to mention I think it should be ILLEGAL, sorry for the mistake

They did ban it. People still wanted it setting the groundwork for a booming black market that would cost a fortune to go after and lead to rampant organized crime. You should consider learning basic US history.

Originally posted by AllUrChips
reply to post by abecedarian

 

Why do you have to correlate EVERYTHING to you? If it were illegal it wouldnt be accessible to ANYONE. Not the casual drinker nor the raging alcoholic! Why is it all about you is my question to you? You would not sacrafice it if saved many lives on the whole? THAT IS SELFISH!!!!

edit on 2-11-2011 by AllUrChips because: (no reason given)

You are kidding, right? Let's take it away from 100% of the population so that the 1% won't eff up.

Grab a mirror... look.
See self? Get over it.

I see no reason in giving up something that does not hurt me, my family nor friends.
I take offence to your meddling in my life.

Maybe you've had drinking problems, drug problems even.

Do you see or hear me dropping my opinion in your life?

Get out of mine.

Considering there are millions of people with my point of view, get out of their lives too.

Originally posted by AllUrChips
reply to post by Screwed

 

However, at the end of the day, I am not in support of a poison that does so much damage, you are

HERE, you summed up perfectly your main reason for posting this thread, imo this is tant amount to chanting, "Na Na I'm better than you are!"