Arrogant Americans!

Oh and Soul Reaper - that kind of cultural misunderstanding and judging others from old prejudice does not only happen in Europe. I live in the province of Ontario, in Canada, but when I cross over to the neighboring province of Qu�bec with my Ontario license plate, it sometimes happens that I get tailgated, honked at, cut off, etc. - because the francophone Qu�b�cois see the anglophone Ontarians as the oppressor who tried to assimilate them for centuries.

The thing is, though... I'm a francophone Ontarian

Originally posted by Otts
Soul Reaper - Alas, the history between France and Germany is going to take a while to forget. People can be petty because of bad memories, and I understand Germans being frustrated by the fact that they're too often associated with what happened during the Third Reich. Just as I imagine a lot of French must be frustrated at always being branded as defeatists because of what happened in June 1940.

It takes a lot of courage to recognize that the Germans are more than that and that the French are more than that. And that the Americans are not all the smug, self-centered nationalists they're imagined as.

Hello Otts,

Well it has been almost 60 years since WWII, how long is a while
in Europes' book? If that were really the case, Indians in the Western
hemisphere should still be able to take Europeans to the world court
for crimes against humanity and genocide for erradicating an entire
race..........whadda you think about that?

I'm not flamming you, it is a justified question with regards to your response.

[edit on 8/31/2004 by Soul Reaper]

Soul Reaper - remember, with France it's not only one instance but a whole century of warfare, starting with 1870 and Prussia. It seems to be deep... but at least there's been a lot of good inroads made, starting with France and Germany taking a stance against the war on Iraq together, and Gerhard Schroeder asking Jacques Chirac last fall to represent Germany's position for him at an economic meeting of the European Commission.

As for the Indians, in Canada they're still pretty sensitive, and often barricades will rise on roads because of an encroachment on an ancestral treaty.

I've studied national identity for my Masters degree, and I was stunned to see how even nowadays, often completely irrationally, people remember slights dating back centuries. My people of choice for study was the Acadians, a group of French colonists in the Canadian maritimes which was deported en masse by the British in 1755. They were allowed to come back 10 years later (although 50 percent of them had died and the British gave them the poorest lands), and to this day the Acadians base their identity on that 250-year-old event.

Yeah, history is written by the victors of any conflict, so how does academia record what really happened? It is all political no matter
how you look at it. People should live by their instincts as it has gotten Humanity to where it is only we the people now let Government tell
us how and what to learn and believe.

What's funny is when people talk about Americans, it's as if they forget that American really means people from the Netherlands, Europe, Germany, Japan, China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Africa, Australia, Canada, and etc.............. that obviously wanted out. Now we're here together as one. Maybe devided in a lot of ways but we are here together and that's where a lot of pride comes from. I dont' know one single person that's ever gone to a rally and held up a sign that says "WE ARE THE BEST", I do think that's unneccessary. Although I know they would if they knew there'd be others there calling us terrible. What sucks is we HAVE helped and forgiven the debt to a LOT of countries that ASKED FOR IT, just to have a lot of that countries same people act like 7 year old kids that have no gratitude. It does make me wish we'd told them to stuff it back then, fend for yourselves, but I don't want to think like that for the people who are thankful. I think that's why so many Americans are pissed today and maybe we've overstepped at times, but then again, there'd be people saying we're terrible for not stepping in. Can't please everybody is what it boils down too. People are pissed in America today. I know not one person at this time that won't fight to the very end if everything does go wrong, whether they believe we should be in Iraq or not, except for may an ungrateful non US citizen.

USA has the right to be arrogant..We earned it.
I eat hamburgers "rarely" LOL

Beats being from the "Nether Regions" any day..
Tulips and Dykes, oh yeah, and wooden shoes...big deal...


Is that Stereotyping?
yep...


Did I spell Dykes correctly?





[edit on 31-8-2004 by spacedoubt]

Originally posted by livenlearn
What's funny is when people talk about Americans, it's as if they forget that American really means people from the Netherlands, Europe, Germany, Japan, China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Africa, Australia, Canada, and etc.............. that obviously wanted out. Now we're here together as one. Maybe devided in a lot of ways but we are here together and that's where a lot of pride comes from. I dont' know one single person that's ever gone to a rally and held up a sign that says "WE ARE THE BEST", I do think that's unneccessary. Although I know they would if they knew there'd be others there calling us terrible. What sucks is we HAVE helped and forgiven the debt to a LOT of countries that ASKED FOR IT, just to have a lot of that countries same people act like 7 year old kids that have no gratitude. It does make me wish we'd told them to stuff it back then, fend for yourselves, but I don't want to think like that for the people who are thankful. I think that's why so many Americans are pissed today and maybe we've overstepped at times, but then again, there'd be people saying we're terrible for not stepping in. Can't please everybody is what it boils down too. People are pissed in America today. I know not one person at this time that won't fight to the very end if everything does go wrong, whether they believe we should be in Iraq or not, except for may an ungrateful non US citizen.

Well said..........I agree totally.

Originally posted by Klepto
Stating that you wish the germans kept the country after WWII is probably a heated reaction... don't however find yourself doing what Jakko does and attack a whole country for the few misgivings...

Hey ignorant being, I did not attack a whole freaking country.
You still don't understand what I am saying, but that does not give you the right to keep on twisting my words around.

And Soul Reaper, you have no clue what you're saying.
Wishing that the netherlands would have stayed under german command.
That's just beyond ignorance.

I take it from your outburst that your request to become an American citizen was declined Jakko...

Originally posted by Jakko
Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is

Damn F*ing straight! Why else do you think that I don't just take off to Canada? I like my gigantic hamburgers with KETCHUP.

Originally posted by Klepto
I take it from your outburst that your request to become an American citizen was declined Jakko...

I hope not, I still want to see those hamburgers before I die.
Tornados and huge hamburgers, only available in the US of A.

Originally posted by Jakko
I hope not, I still want to see those hamburgers before I die.
Tornados and huge hamburgers, only available in the US of A.

I guess mcdonald's is only in the us? Their big mac's aren't international??
Or do you just not get out much? Because, by the sounds of it, it seems you sit in front of the boob tube all day listening to bias media feed you snippet's for a stereotypical mindset...

Originally posted by ubermunche

Originally posted by fawlty

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

I am proud of my heritage and my country and I offer no excuses to anyone. Just because you are not proud of your heritage and your country does not mean others shouldnt be. We are a nation of courage in comparison to other nations out there. We will never appease those who seek to do us harm. Look what appeasement in WWII did for the Netherlands. If it wasnt for the United States there wouldnt even be a Netherlands or a France. Just as in the past we and when I say we, I mean the troops overseas who risk their lives, courageously meet their objectives.

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and in your heritage. I suppose if I lived in the Netherlands, a country of defeat, surrender and occupation, I wouldnt be able to grasp that concept. Just another case of nation envy. You will never be able to picture signs that say "Netherlands, a Nation of courage" because it does not apply.

Now that is really arrogant, have you any idea what it must be like to live in an occupied country, to be a small country facing the might of some world power and helpless to stop it, that's the kind of arrogance I dislike whether US or any country, an inability to grasp how things are for someone with a completely different set of circumstances to deal with and dismissing them as cowards rather than examine the actual facts. Do you know how many men, women and children suffered and died under the nazis, and even so how many continued as much as they could to offer resistance while under occupation, that takes guts and you could argue that if it wasn't for individuals offering help and suport to allied spies and intelligence the war may have turned out differently. Europe was not a nation of cowards. By all means be proud of your country but don't fall back on blind patriotism to distort the facts.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by ubermunche]

First of all, Europe is not a nation...not yet anyway. We could not have defeated Germany without the aid of the U.K. The Polish resistance was strong and the Finns fought valiantly...everyone else folded like a house of cards. Allies chose unconditional surrender as their policy, so no, the war would not have turned out differently.

Because we are a courageous nation. Read your history books, it took courage to claim independance from the British at a time when the Brits were the most powerful nation in the world, that took courage. It also took courage when we chose a radically different type of government from any other country in the world, a democratic government. Thats courage, but every nation is courageous and there is nothing wrong with having pride in our nation.
I'm tired of hearing the generalization that Americans are "stupid", not all are. In fact, most Americans are very intelligent.

Just to clarify this fawlty, are you saying that apart from the british, the finnish and members of the polish resistance, there is a strong fault line of cowardice or lack of will to fight in all other europeans.

Originally posted by ubermunche
Just to clarify this fawlty, are you saying that apart from the british, the finnish and members of the polish resistance, there is a strong fault line of cowardice or lack of will to fight in all other europeans.

No just the Netherlands...haha. Ok...cant leave out France either.

I shouldnt take time to connect the dots for you but since you are from the U.K. I will. The original poster shouldnt comment on how arrogant Americans are for having national pride when we have spilled our blood on their soil in order to ensure their freedoms. Changing the flags back and forth between American and German depending on who was in your city or village is not even near the same league as what Americans did for the world in WWII. That is just using WWII as an example. We have sacrificed far more in the Cold War and in the war against terrorism. So yes it is a different kind of pride that someone not from the U.S. or the U.K. will not be able to understand...especially from the Netherlands.

Originally posted by Otts

- I'm sick and tired that often when I post about politics in the U.S., there's one or two posters who will say that my opinion comes from a country which has "the power of a gnat" and "lives on the U.S.'s defense budget", so bottom line is I should just shut up and be grateful...

I said that, and you've completely misquoted me and taken it out of context of where it was said. I don't like it when people do that. Perhaps a better way to have said it would have been "relys on the US for defense". However, at no point in the instance of where this was said was "shut up and be grateful" anywhere implied.

This is a perfect example of a topic that has gotten out of control. The initial post by Jakko from the Netherlands simply expressed amazement at Americans' patriotism and our audacity at proclaiming ourselves to be a "Nation of Courage".

I am an American who is married to an Englishwoman. Jakko's post doesn't surprise me at all. Most Europeans are totally mystfied and offended by standard American patriotism. The sort of nationalism that we Americans exhibit today is what caused the two World Wars in Europe that we ended up having to help sort out. Understandably, most Europeans are very wary of the nationalistic jingoism that we indulge in here in the US.

I am a native Southerner whose roots in this country go back 300 years and who believes that the Confederate cause of States Rights and secession was constitutionally sound. I fly the Confederate flag every Memorial Day as a matter of principal and protest (it was originally a Southern observance that was preempted by the Yankees). In short, I am an American by historical default rather than by choice.

All of the above notwithstanding, patriotic Americans have a great deal to be proud of, but maybe we should be a little bit more discreet and sensitive regarding how we present ourselves to the rest of the world.

nationalism is so dangerous........it happens almost in every country. But. so far.... I feel...
...
...
It is certainly worst in America among all western countries. American saved Europe from this ideology but turn himself into it. it is ...just sad.

Which one is worst in oriental countries? my personal opinion: Korea. Both North and South Korea.

So, it won't be surprised if there is another war between NK and USA.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by proxxx]