Arrogant Americans!

I just watched some of the speeches on the convention, by Mccain and all, and what really shocked me was that loads of the people in the audience had this "NATION OF COURAGE" banner in their hands.
Wtf is up with these Americans???

I tried to picture such a situation in my own country (netherlands) and I can assure you, it would never ever happen over here.
Even if people in the netherlands would think their leader has shown a lot of courage, labelling yourself as a nation of courage is just stupid.
Almost as stupid as the "whoever gets humans on mars first wins" contest.

so true

i am american but live in germany, and everytime i visit the states i am amazed at the blatant ignorance. go to a happy little suburb and every house has an american flag out front. people watch the war like a football game on TV, GO TEAM GO! patriotism doesnt bother me until it becomes trendy. people dont know what they stand for except that america is gods chosen country - right . and bush is hardly courageous.

-lost

Although I do agree with your sentiments,Jakko, and being an American (different political bent, than those you saw..) I can understand the absurdity as such. I feel no sensationalist need to see nations compete for achievements, instead only the pragmatic end of economic stimulus and the wonderment of seeing humankind actually exponientially evolve. I do reiterate that it would seem that there are those who would do things for the wrong reasons and thereby hamper the evolution of the human condition. I suspect that the banner is nothing more than transparent morale boosting for deflated ego's.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by Crysstaafur]

I watched farenheid 911 and there was a mother that had a child in Irak. In the beginning she was like "America is the best, Bush is the best leader", etc. But when her son died, she was mad as hell on the goverment. then she saw the real deal............

Arrogant? I'm not arrogant! I'm an American, and I know I'm not arrogant! I dont wave flags and banners around saying how awesome the county is and stuff. But still, I dont think thats Arrogant, but just peoples opinions, using theyre right to like or hate a leader, and using their right to be as patriotic to their county as they wanna be. America's not perfect, but its one of the best.

i don't think it is fair to say Americans are Arrogant, that comment in itself is quite Ignorant. To give an opinion about a nation from a one sided media review (propoganda) is quite shallow minded. however, I do agree in some respects that the world NOW has to fight a war on terror ever since prime USA structures have been made targets. I am aware that the world trade centre housed many people from all over the world, but the fact that the American land has been targeted has scared them. We don't see the other side of this, the fact that terrorism has been occur for many years. Take the IRA who had much funding from the USA, during the 80's and 90's conducted many terroist activities... but that does not mean I think that all americans are terrorist supporters, far from it as I attempt not to "tar them with the same brush". Also, don't confuse arrogance with patriotism, I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it).. as Americans I am sure are all proud of where they live, but doesn't necessarily respect the leader that got into office by default.

[edit on 31/8/04 by Klepto]

Originally posted by Jakko
I just watched some of the speeches on the convention, by Mccain and all, and what really shocked me was that loads of the people in the audience had this "NATION OF COURAGE" banner in their hands.
Wtf is up with these Americans???

I tried to picture such a situation in my own country (netherlands) and I can assure you, it would never ever happen over here.
Even if people in the netherlands would think their leader has shown a lot of courage, labelling yourself as a nation of courage is just stupid.
Almost as stupid as the "whoever gets humans on mars first wins" contest.

Now a thread like this is long over due here at ats I have not seen on of these for a while. I agree the level of ignorence that is in the united states is astonishing. But this gives good reason why website's like ats should be allowed to exist. Let's take bush and even clinton and really look at what both of them really got away with when you boil it down this is a large problem drawn over number's of presidency's.

Here's the way I look at thing's take the most recent case dealing with sandy berger or maybe this most recent pentagon leak out of the pentagon. If it is ok for these people in these position's to do this and get away with leaking or lending out sensitive information or policy's then it is ok for any of us to do it and people in any gov shouldnt have a problem with websites like ats for sometime's putting on material we are not surpose to look at or people dont want us to see for what ever reason.

For a long time there has been no accountablity anywhere not even with the most recent sibel edmonds case that in reality like the wilson case over iraq could have and should have buried the people in the white house. People in different government or what not position's that may visit ats from time to time and see somthing on here they concider not for our viewing or information purpose's should take a closer look at what there official's get away with and then they can come and complain about content they see on website's such as ats and other's.

What's even funnier is we are called the loon's/extremeist/use any other name or what label you choose here but it usally allow's for dismissal of any idea's/suggestion's/fact that usally can be found here on ats and other website's.

I have heard many idea's as to what to do about the problem as well as why to leave the ignorence problem in america alone. I dont blame people that live outside of the united states for hateing alot of the people's ignorece inside of the united states because the denial run's too deep in the mind's of the people of the U.S.

Year's ago I came up with a idea you know the FBI isnt that far off when hover when he was in charge of the FBI before he died came up with the famous quote "You are on a Need To Know Basis, and you dont need to know". Hover might not have been that far off I have a new idea. Here's mine. If the people dont care about the people trying to make change in government or have accountablity or even care about how there political leader's get away with what they do then the "people" are on a need to know basis and they dont need to know. I think that work's alot better in helping denigh ignorence.

Year's ago I also after doing many talk's around the U.S. I found in my case when it came to something as simple as the health problem people did not care about the health problem until they as a person became sick. Then they wanted to know the answer's as to why they were sick. So I came up with another rule, I gave up trying to convince people as to what was real and that is part of another reason for my quote at the bottem of any post I do. What is Real?

That is a arguement of itself that could be argued for thousand's of post's but real is only as real as a person want's to believe there version of what ever they are used to as being real. If it is not something they are used to in there life denighal set's in, then come's dismissal of the idea or idea's that were just presented on what ever the subject matter was, finally you have acceptance where only the person's version of what they are used to then come's back to the mind set of the idea they have about the way thing's work and the idea's you as a person presented to them become null and void.

It still to this day make's me wonder even why people still blow the whistle even in government or present information to people in the press. The pattern show's government cover's up the scandle and the lies about the fact's in the controlled press.

Shall we start placing bets?

I place the bet right now this most recent pentagon leak will go no where it will be covered up in the media and the lie presented to the people the people will buy what ever lie is presented.

Any Taker's on the time frame in which this will happen?

I bet the most recent pentagon leak will be covered up either by another war/distraction of any kind/manufactured terror event/ pick your own choosing of what may happen but it will be covered up because people dont hold there government's accountable. And I lay bet's this pentagon leak will be covered up before the election if we dont have any of the manufactured event's well talked about on ats such as the future bin laden october surprise for bush's re-election/WMD's to be put in iraq with the help of iran some script like that.

So what do about the problem ats is the answer "denigh ignorence". And denigh any person with out a open mind or any kind of reasoning, this at least keeps people like the member's of ats having there own community of open minded personality's to merge have difference's but ultimately also still agree on many issue's of real importance.

The other answer is dont tell the people anything they are not ready to believe at least this way they may evently be able to believe that donald rumsfeld really did authorise the torture or that the weapons of mass distruction story really was faked for oil pipelines among other thing's.

In reality there are only 2 type's of people in the world in my view and people are welcome to disagree with it or say otherwise but this has been my expirence.

Person 1: The Wiseman or Wise Women: That learn's somthing from there mistakes and does there best not to repeat them.

Person 2: The Ignorent man or Ignorent Women: That make's a mistake does not learn anything from the mistake and is more then likely to repeat the mistake.

Why many people make mistake's not many people will admit to them

I am sure I made lot's of spelling mistakes in this post but I dont care because most of the older member's of ats know I dont have the time to post as much as I used to and plus I never was very good at spelling.

But the fact's remain that the people of america or moron's that's the facts regardless of what most people in america are willing to admit that does not mean that its not the truth.

Ah but wait what is the Truth?

We may never know after all:

The line between what we precive to be the truth and fiction is never really decided one person's truth is another person's fiction.

Just my two cent's for today.

Falcon

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

Ah, its lovely how truly ignorant the Europeans have been kept. Disallusioned by their leaders telling them how fat and stupid America is, or how they're this evil country whats war mongering and filled with trashy, obscese, stupid fools. Keep on ignorantly gross stereotyping something you don't know the slightest about, because thats how your governments keep you under control.

Whats wrong about being patriotic? You see, in America, your allowed to like or dislike whatever you want. And just because someone says that theyre proud to be an American, they aren't necessarily proud of what they themselves did, but theyre proud to be called an American. Theres a great pride status in America, knowing that we broke away from the chain of a monocratic system, and that we have risen to today to become one of the worlds strongest powers. There's a pride status to know that we're willing to risk lives for democracy, and have defended against the tyranical dictators of the past, when almost all hope was lost for thoses in the direct threat of these tyrants. Theres a pride status in knowing that people come from all around the world every day to come to America and have a better life. Ask that turkish man whether he's proud to now be an American, I'm sure the answer is yes. Theres alot to be proud of in America, because, if people like you Jakko, would be able to open their eyes, and actually see how America really is, you'd see why we are proud to live in this country, support this country, and run this country.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

I am proud of my heritage and my country and I offer no excuses to anyone. Just because you are not proud of your heritage and your country does not mean others shouldnt be. We are a nation of courage in comparison to other nations out there. We will never appease those who seek to do us harm. Look what appeasement in WWII did for the Netherlands. If it wasnt for the United States there wouldnt even be a Netherlands or a France. Just as in the past we and when I say we, I mean the troops overseas who risk their lives, courageously meet their objectives.

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and in your heritage. I suppose if I lived in the Netherlands, a country of defeat, surrender and occupation, I wouldnt be able to grasp that concept. Just another case of nation envy. You will never be able to picture signs that say "Netherlands, a Nation of courage" because it does not apply.

It must be difficult to live in a country that has no will of its own. Soon the European Union will become stronger and it will suck up the tiny Netherlands. Maybe the North Sea will swallow you up because I heard much of your country is under sea level. Jakko what are you proud of? Your kids? Your life? Your country? Are you proud of the fact that on August 21, 1598 the Deed of Transfers proclaimed Netherlands independent. Netherlands has had a shaky history. Your country was lost when Belgium became independent and was occupied by the Nazis in World War 2. Are you proud that after all these centuries that the Netherlands is still here on this Earth as a sovereign nation? Do you Jakko feel any pride towards your country?

F.A.O. Jakko

Not to be insulting but GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT BEFORE YOU SOUND OFF!

I am from the UK, it says it right under my avatar... I don't mean to show this as an example of how small minded a perception can get, it may be a good Idea to get ALL facts correct about a subject before you feel the need to sound off about it.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

Why am I proud to be an American? Because of my grandfather and the millions of other U.S. soldiers who fought and died in WW2 against the Nazi, the Facists, and the Japanese empire.
Because of the courage and sacrifice of the millions of men and women who have fought, bled, and died for my freedoms in the last 200 plus years.
Because my grandfather came to this country with nothing and built a life and a family on a foundation of hardwork.
Because of the millions who come here every year, in many cases at great risk to life and limb, for nothng more than a chance to be free.
I am PROUD to be an american jakko, not because of an accident of birth, but because of the men and women who have worked, strived, bled, fought, struggled, succeeded, and never given up untill this country was one I could be proud of, myself included.

Call it arrogance if you wish, I really don't care. You have shown you have no pride in your heritage, your history, your nation and your people, and that is your right. Just as it is my right to be proud of who I am and where I'm from.

My being proud of my nation is no slight on yours, and if your self esteem is so frgile that you take it as such then you need to look within yourself.

What is wrong with being proud of who I am? What should I be proud of? Who I'm not? I am white, I am proud to be white, just as those who are black are proud to be black, are we both wrong?

Look within yourself jakko, ask why you are not proud of who you are. Do you need outside approval to be proud of yourself? If so why? Why is the fact that, you are you, not a good enough reason to be proud? I am proud of being me. I am proud of being an American.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by mwm1331]

The Star-Spangled Banner


Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Have you seen the pictures of the demonstrations? That is a symbol of patriotism also. The means and ability to act in constructive ways to displace elected officials. This is going on in the local levels of government also.
You asked why I am proud of being an american, well, My ancesters fought and gave their blood to give this nation the chance to become whatever the people wanted it to be. They helped give them a peaceful means of removing and holding people accountable for their actions while in office. And, they took the measures necessary to ensure they have the freedom to do it.
You won't find an american flag outside my house, or see my at any conventions or in any protests probably....and oh ya, my patriotism have been questioned from time to time....but still, I am American, and proud of it. I owe it to my ancestors, since the government that they helped form seems to have been hijacked in the past couple of decades, by a bunch of arrogant ....well, I won't finish that statement I guess...
More and more people are waking up, and like I said, the government is formed to be what the people want it to be...we'll find our way, when enough people decide what they want.

Wow, it seems as if some people feel insulted. Probably the hamburgers right?

It's not that I am not proud of my country, if I would look at it like you look at it I guess I could be proud about the huge dutch resistance in the WWII, something that was not the case in other countries.
Or maybe I could be proud about our very social system and tolerant climate.

But the thing is, why should I be proud about something I did not do/choose/achieve?
I mean I can either like it that I am living in a country like this, or I can dislike it. But if I like it, why should I be proud about it?

Waving around your "OH WE ARE SUCH COURAGEOUS NATION" banner is one step further even, why on earth would someone (even if that someone is very courageous) do such a thing?

Are we Europeans maybe too polite?

Originally posted by Klepto
F.A.O. Jakko

What did F.A.O. mean again?
I hope it's something kind.

Anyone else notice that our president seems to have a "name it and claim it" philosophy? Like if he says something enough times, it will magically become true, or at least enough people will believe it? Our economy is a good example, just keep getting people to believe it, keep them positive and spending, maybe we'll get out of the mess somehow. Well, maybe the same it true with the sign....Alot of Americans don't feels too secure, not in the physical aspects or financially.....I don't think that they really are feeling too courageous at the moment either. In plain simple terms....it's propaganda, a neat slogan that hopefully will be picked up by a few and carried....that will probably flop. But, the main idea behind it, is that if you get enough people saying it, they will believe it, long enough for them to enlist, if you're lucky!!

Jakko, I am European, you are not polite and I suggest no further postings on this thread.

*********************************************************

IMPORTANT:

I believe thread is purely to allow Jakko to enhance his ATS points, don't be duped.


*********************************************************

I guess its hard to be patriotic when your history sways toward an imperialistic attitude.

Why?, because our country became what it is through the exploitation of others, and no argument I give will ever change that fact.

The US is doing the same, fact.

Future generations will come to understand this.

No One nation will be greater than the global community we are mean't to be, most European nations have already learn't this, the hard way, the US will do the same.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by Koka]