Arrogant Americans!

PistolPete - actually, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to someone else a few months back in another thread... will have to find which one. But I do remember you not saying that.

Originally posted by RR98
This is a perfect example of a topic that has gotten out of control. The initial post by Jakko from the Netherlands simply expressed amazement at Americans' patriotism and our audacity at proclaiming ourselves to be a "Nation of Courage".

I am an American who is married to an Englishwoman. Jakko's post doesn't surprise me at all. Most Europeans are totally mystfied and offended by standard American patriotism. The sort of nationalism that we Americans exhibit today is what caused the two World Wars in Europe that we ended up having to help sort out. Understandably, most Europeans are very wary of the nationalistic jingoism that we indulge in here in the US.

I am a native Southerner whose roots in this country go back 300 years and who believes that the Confederate cause of States Rights and secession was constitutionally sound. I fly the Confederate flag every Memorial Day as a matter of principal and protest (it was originally a Southern observance that was preempted by the Yankees). In short, I am an American by historical default rather than by choice.

All of the above notwithstanding, patriotic Americans have a great deal to be proud of, but maybe we should be a little bit more discreet and sensitive regarding how we present ourselves to the rest of the world.

Are you saying you'd rather not be here in America?

see........nationalism. above. right here.

I think we just all got to understand that the US's patriotism is unique in the west and they have been tought and reminded every day of their lives about how America is the greatest. It's just the patriotic culture over there.

While I do believe that the idea of manifest destiny and thinking that your country is somehow chosen by god or superior or right to another is ridiculous I suppose we just have to try accept it.

We are all ignorant in one way or another. Everyone on this board is ignorant.

Klepto I am very glad to see someone from the UK on ATS call themselves European. Out of all the brits in Australia that I know none of them think that the UK is a European nation. I believe this is due to the past centuries of British Imperialism and nationalism led to the UK perceiving itself not part of Europe. But the truth is that the UK is part of Europe and has been intertwined with its history for centuries.

thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by Otts
PistolPete - actually, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to someone else a few months back in another thread... will have to find which one. But I do remember you not saying that.

Okay, my mistake. You worded it pretty much exactly how I did or else I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Arrogant? Where the @^$& you get arrogant Americans from. I've been blessed to be born in this great country of ours and lived here all of my life and never, ever have I witnessed any arrogance from any Americans. Except for the damned Democratic Party members and their supporters.
And those damned American hating Europeans (no, not the United Kingdom).

[edit on 1/9/04 by Intelearthling]

[edit on 1/9/04 by Intelearthling]

lol what you just said mate is probably what he means.



[edit on 1-9-2004 by drfunk]

The Idea that Americans should tone down thier patriotism because it might offend europeans is kin to saying that followers of a religon should not display any religous symbols on thier home because it might offend thier neighbors. I tried to be resonable, I tried to explain that Americans pride in America takes nothing away from any other country and is not based on, or in reference to, any other country, But you arrogant europeans refuse to listen. So because you refuse to accept that our patriotism is a matter of self pride and not a matter of demeaning other nations and becuse of your superior " nationalism is bad, we are smart enough to know it and your not we are humble and good you are arrogant and bad" attitude I no longer care whether or not you think we are arrogant. Because the fact is WE CAN BE thats right in the words of dennis leary " you can have a big democracy cakewalk down tiannimen square and it doesn't mean squat you know why, CAUSE WE GOT THE BOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok, call it what you like... but why the need to display such pride if it is not demeaning to others in comparison. think about it, if no one was watching, there would be no reason for americans to be so "arrogant."

but to europeans "WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT AMERICANS DO IN AMERICA?"

i am an example of an american that is very gratefull for my heritage and am still proud, but quietly so. from my experience, many americans are too loud with their pride. maybe my opinion is biased from living in europe so long, but i am annoyed when i am enjoying a european shopping district or venue and those american tourists stand out so well. loud as hell, not giving a second thought to customs or respect to the host country. i give them some leeway because many of them are just ignorant tourists, except there are many other foreign tourists that seem to grasp the idea of respect.

it has very much to do with the american psyche' because everyone knows america is at the top of the food chain, including americans. they simply get cocky. when foreigners visit the USA, although they might not know all the customs, they know enough about america because theyve been watching it from day one on the TV. how many americans really care to see europe, vs. europeans who care to see america.

i must disagree when i read americans arent arrogant and they act so just out of healthy pride and celebration of what they love.

obviously not the american members of ATS, but too many americans just plain ignorant.......... this thread is too long already, rack those points Jakko

-lost

RR98, you are one of the few that understands my point.
It was never my intention to question anyones pride, but the way American pride shows is just so very different from nationalism in Europe. (if there is any)

Maybe it has to do with the effects of WWII that nationalism almost disappeared out of Europe.

This is like a fat person hating a skinny person just because their skinny.
The fat person thinks the skinny one is prancing around showing off their body because it looks great, while the fat person sits back in anger and hate for the skinny person...

You don't know thats what the skinny person is doing because your not that person. Sure you can think whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true...

You can't paint everybody with the same brush loud, did it every occur to you that maybe, just maybe those tourists you were talking about were trailor trash? Maybe they won a trip over there when they submitted their names in a raffle...


Americans are very reserved when they are out and about. Everybody minds their own business, sure you have the few load mouthed attention whores but their just trash. Like my husband says: They've most likely never won a trophy in their life...

I've rarely experienced arrogant attitudes out and about the only times I have was because these people were indeed trailor trash. Loud, obnoxious, ect... There is nothing wrong with haning a flag on the front of your house, or on your cars, ect...

If you think thats arrogant to do then my deepest sympathy goes out to you and your country.... Maybe europeans don't have much pride because their butts are sticking up in the air for the government to come and ram whenever they feel a desire to do so...
there are 300 millions people here in the US and they aren't all white they aren't all indian, they come from all over the world, so this country must be doing something right...And 300 million people aren't all the same, i highly doubt your attempt to paint everybody with the same brush is sticking because it just isn't so.

Maybe someone know, but Dutch people have the mentality that when you act normal you are already crazy enough, although we can pretty much being crazy ourselfes sometimes. But that's just a difference between two countries.

I can understand Jakko's problem a little bit. Maybe in times like these he cannot understand why people are using these banners to support the Bush administration because of the war we are in and because it's wrong in our mind.

I also still can't understand why still have of the American people vote for him and his party. I don't know if we see only one side of the news. In the Netherlands we recieve, CNN, FOX, NBC, SKY news, BBC and even we have our own reporters in the US. Do you think they all (?) give a one sided view of your country. Not to mention all the US programs we see at our channels.

Maybe it's just we hate Bush because he don't pay any attention to Europe and he's busy to do the best (?) thing for his own country which I can understand a little bit. But when he takes the rest of the world into an unasked war you can emagine that people don't like him.

On the other hand America also helped Europe in WW2 in a unasked war for them, and if the reasons are right, Europe should also help America. But are these reasons the right ones, that's the big question!

Originally posted by Jakko
Maybe it has to do with the effects of WWII that nationalism almost disappeared out of Europe.

Maybe it has more to do with the fact that no country has done as much in the short time that is has been around? I challenge you, or anyone else here, to show any country that has done so much in its first 228 years.

Originally posted by rai76
I also still can't understand why still have of the American people vote for him and his party. I don't know if we see only one side of the news. In the Netherlands we recieve, CNN, FOX, NBC, SKY news, BBC and even we have our own reporters in the US. Do you think they all (?) give a one sided view of your country. Not to mention all the US programs we see at our channels.

Maybe it's just we hate Bush because he don't pay any attention to Europe and he's busy to do the best (?) thing for his own country which I can understand a little bit. But when he takes the rest of the world into an unasked war you can emagine that people don't like him.

Yep, Europa disliking Bush started earlyer though, when Bush made clear he didn't think the Kyoto agreement was important enough to stick to.
There were a few other incidents before Iraq, that made Bush look bad in Europe, I can't recall them now.

But I agree, the media telling us about america and Bush is not one sided at all. Of course it does not allow us to understand everything about the USA, but we're certainly not being manipulated into one opinion by the media.

I have had both the misfortune and pleasure of meeting both kinds of American Visitors. Predominately Americans in Britain these days tend to keep quiet and just take in the sites and soke up the atmosphere of our little island.

The loud mouth American tourist is a stereotype from the past, and most visitors, these days are quite respectful of there hosts.

Money and power is what breeds arrogance, and I know of no country that doesn't have the same problem, even 3rd world countries.

Bush has shown how arrogant he and his administration are, by ignoring UN resolutions, tearing up the Kyoto Agreement and his "You're either with us or against us" statement. These are the main ones that come to mind but there are many more.

The world doesn't hate Americans, it hates the arrogant administration that has driven what was once a respectable country into a nose dive in global popularity. Clinton was far from perfect, but I strongly believe the worlds attitude toward the US would be very different if he had been holding the reins for the past 4 years.

[edit on 1-9-2004 by Koka]

Originally posted by ubermunche

Originally posted by fawlty

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

I am proud of my heritage and my country and I offer no excuses to anyone. Just because you are not proud of your heritage and your country does not mean others shouldnt be. We are a nation of courage in comparison to other nations out there. We will never appease those who seek to do us harm. Look what appeasement in WWII did for the Netherlands. If it wasnt for the United States there wouldnt even be a Netherlands or a France. Just as in the past we and when I say we, I mean the troops overseas who risk their lives, courageously meet their objectives.

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and in your heritage. I suppose if I lived in the Netherlands, a country of defeat, surrender and occupation, I wouldnt be able to grasp that concept. Just another case of nation envy. You will never be able to picture signs that say "Netherlands, a Nation of courage" because it does not apply.

Now that is really arrogant, have you any idea what it must be like to live in an occupied country, to be a small country facing the might of some world power and helpless to stop it, that's the kind of arrogance I dislike whether US or any country, an inability to grasp how things are for someone with a completely different set of circumstances to deal with and dismissing them as cowards rather than examine the actual facts. Do you know how many men, women and children suffered and died under the nazis, and even so how many continued as much as they could to offer resistance while under occupation, that takes guts and you could argue that if it wasn't for individuals offering help and suport to allied spies and intelligence the war may have turned out differently. Europe was not a nation of cowards. By all means be proud of your country but don't fall back on blind patriotism to distort the facts.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by ubermunche]

Does the U.S. know what it's like in an occupied country, controlled by an imperialistic larger one? No, of course we haven't. The revolutionary war was just for nothing...

Look, people go to these shindigs, are handed banners and when the applause time comes, they wave them around. It's done to make it look like a big party. Silly hats, banners, signs, sparkly crap all over the place, streamers and such. It's basically meaningless.

I think America is a nation of courage. The banner didn't say "We're a Nation of Courage and You Other Guys Aren't!". I don't think American patriotism and pride should be taken as negating anyone else's stance in the global community. I'm glad to be American. I'm glad I was lucky enough to pop out of the chute at this particular long and lat. I'm proud to be a part of a country that is successful and to be part of the process of making it so. I could have chosen to go elsewhere, but opted to remain here so making my residence here a choice, not letting it remain an accident of fate and geography.

I've got no problem with anyone flying the flag. I have a lovely one, made in Taiwan, that I hang outside our office every morning. Some people flew them all the time and others began only after 9/11. It's a choice which people make for different reasons. I've personally never flown one at home and don't now. I'm American. I know it. There are plenty of flags around to satisfy my need to see it, should that need become overpowering.

If other countries feel we're arrogant that's fine. Maybe they're arrogant because of their feelings of superiority over the U.S. for being so arrogant. Everyone has their own perceptions of what other nations are/do and many times it's based on what we see on tv or read and not personal experience. Until I was a teenager and began meeting people and reading about it, I thought all Mexicans were banditos with the exception of one very fast mouse. Later I only saw them on the news being busted by border patrol. Then I found out later still that they are an entire nation of people with more to offer than tacos and a lack of stinkin badges.


My nation of gun toting, giant hamburger eating, flag flying, big headed, banner waving, crack smoking, abortion addicted, God fearing terror warriors won't stand for these insults. Not all of us are arrogant. For that to be implied by the displaying of an opinon indicates that there is already a prejudice there, waiting to rear its ugly head. Banners don't mean anything, especially at events. Don't worry about the guy waving a banner because there's a parade or convention. Worry about the guy waving a banner because it's Tuesday.

I have a Proud to be American t-shirt, A 9/11 memorial t-shirt, a U.S. Navy bumper sticker on my truck, love waving the U.S. flag, and know that I live in the best country in the world.

I do not care one iota what the liberal Euro's think of me, or my country.

Oh yes, I also have guns....

[edit on 1-9-2004 by smokenmirrors]

hahaha
Good for you smokenmirrors...
Good for you.

Originally posted by livenlearn

Originally posted by RR98
This is a perfect example of a topic that has gotten out of control. The initial post by Jakko from the Netherlands simply expressed amazement at Americans' patriotism and our audacity at proclaiming ourselves to be a "Nation of Courage".

I am an American who is married to an Englishwoman. Jakko's post doesn't surprise me at all. Most Europeans are totally mystfied and offended by standard American patriotism. The sort of nationalism that we Americans exhibit today is what caused the two World Wars in Europe that we ended up having to help sort out. Understandably, most Europeans are very wary of the nationalistic jingoism that we indulge in here in the US.

I am a native Southerner whose roots in this country go back 300 years and who believes that the Confederate cause of States Rights and secession was constitutionally sound. I fly the Confederate flag every Memorial Day as a matter of principal and protest (it was originally a Southern observance that was preempted by the Yankees). In short, I am an American by historical default rather than by choice.

All of the above notwithstanding, patriotic Americans have a great deal to be proud of, but maybe we should be a little bit more discreet and sensitive regarding how we present ourselves to the rest of the world.

Are you saying you'd rather not be here in America?

I said nothing of the sort, nor did I imply it in any way. What led you to draw that conclusion? Are you an "America - Love It or Leave It!" type? If so, as I mentioned previously, my family has been in North America for 300 years. My most recent immigrant ancestors came here 200 years ago. Where would you suggest I go? England, France, Germany, Scotland, or Ireland? After 200 - 300 years which country do you think would welcome me back with open arms?

What one COULD MAYBE possibly conclude from my previous comments are that my attitude toward the US MIGHT be somewhat akin to that of a Scot or a Welshman toward the UK. To wit, they invaded MY country in an illegal and unconstitutional war of agression, killed millions in the process (more Americans died in the War Between the States than in all of our other wars combined), placed my country under military occupation for 12 years, and 140 years later continue to deny us equality via antiquated and no longer relevant so-called "civil rights laws".

I have been living in New England for 24 years now and still can't believe the anti-black bigotry that exists among working-class whites here to a degree that I NEVER saw back home (down South....Louisiana to be specific). The National Grand Poobah Jerko (or whatever he's called) of the KKK lived in Meriden, CT when I first moved up here. There were more Klan rallies there on a regular basis than anywhere else in the country.

I also find it hard to swallow the incredible left-wing crapola from the supposedly "educated class" (I work and interact with Yalies all the time..........I work in New Haven). Some of the vile stuff I have heard spewed against Conservatives boggles the mind. I could probably get some people in trouble with the Secret Service if I wanted to.

So I ask again, livenlearn, how did you arrive at your erroneous conclusion? I don't want to live elsewhere. If anything, I want an unwelcome governmental intrusion ( the US Federal govt) the HELL OUT of MY COUNTRY! I want our (the CSA's) rightful independence established as the UK did with Scotland's.

Yes, I'm an American, but I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a "Yank", and NEVER will be. I eagerly await your response...........