Arrogant Americans!

Originally posted by Klepto
I believe thread is purely to allow Jakko to enhance his ATS points, don't be duped.

Pffft what a dumb comment.
I could care less about my stupid ATS points, and I can decide for myself wether or not to stop posting in my own thread.
If you don't like it stay out of my thread.

After reading of the above posts, I really wonder what patriotism is. You say you love your country. That's ok, I guess, since you are 'brainwashed' (in a good way) to love the things you are. We all are, more or less, since we would felt lost if we didn't love ourselves and the place that we are born.

But are people really that different? take people in the country next to yours. Or pick any country, really. Pick any human being...in 99%, it is exactly like you. We all have the same needs. We all sleep at night. We all eat (or try to) two meals a day. We all want care and love. We all need a companion. We all need to trust our lives to an entity above us. Our differences are cosmetic, really.

So, if patriotism means 'I love my country because it is the best country and I am the best', then patriotism is silly. It is even wrong! there is nothing that separates you from all the others. We are all the same. It is by sheer luck that you were born an American, a French, a German, a Japanese; you could have easily been born an Indian, an African, a Russian etc.

And another thing: the higher they rise, the harder they fall. Jesus told that the one who rises above the others falls down and the lower one rises up. Remember that, the next time you wave the American flag singing the national anthem. Remember that, when you cry when one of your soldiers comes home in a coffin.

If you are a mother, remember that when your sun was killed in the distant land of Iraq, hundrends of iraqis, people like you, have been killed, and thousands of mothers are crying about the loss of their children.

Human pain is the same anywhere, and there is one thing no one can get away: death.

Patriotism is therefore silly, because everytime you praise yourself for existing, you condemn another one for being what he/she is. That's how silly patriotism is.

Well there is this saying about empty barrels making the most noise.

Actually though, not being american, I doubt that what could be interpreted as conceited behaviour is found in the U.S. alone. Also, IMO this is more of an example of cultural differences than anything else. Pride is found all over the world in different shapes and forms; what pride really means and the manner in which it is expressed varies.

That said, as an example, is it strange that to cultures considering humillity to be a virtue, loud nationalistic beaviour can be seen as obscene, offensive and even insulting? I think not. Is this nessecarily anyone's fault? Hardly. Should it be considered? Absolutly.

It's amazing how ignorance and jealousy will spur so many on to flap their gums...

Hmmm, who's jealous A R?
Did you post in the right thread?

Originally posted by Jakko
Hmmm, who's jealous A R?
Did you post in the right thread?

Oh, absolutely. By the way, since you live in the Netherlands, are you perhaps in one of those internet cafe's that sell the wacky weed? Seems like your diatribe is fueled by something other than grey matter.

People always cut down what they most covet. Wars are fought over such things, as well as religion.

And another question; have you ever BEEN to the USA? If so, for how long, and where?


And what about the unmitigated arrogance of your statement, "if you don't like it, stay out of MY THREAD". People who live in glass houses....



[edit on 31-8-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by fawlty

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by Klepto
I am proud of where I live (not necessarily the govnment that rules it)31/8/04 by Klepto]

Maybe you can explain that one.
Why are you proud of where you live?
Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location?

Being proud of being american, or living in the USA implies that being american or living in the USA is better than being from another country or living somewhere else.
Isn't that a little bit ignorant?

You did not choose to be american or to be born in the USA, neither did you deserve it. It's just what you are and where you are.

It's like saying OH I'M SO PROUD I HAVE A WHITE SKINCOLOR
You should be proud on something you did not something you are.

I am proud of my heritage and my country and I offer no excuses to anyone. Just because you are not proud of your heritage and your country does not mean others shouldnt be. We are a nation of courage in comparison to other nations out there. We will never appease those who seek to do us harm. Look what appeasement in WWII did for the Netherlands. If it wasnt for the United States there wouldnt even be a Netherlands or a France. Just as in the past we and when I say we, I mean the troops overseas who risk their lives, courageously meet their objectives.

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and in your heritage. I suppose if I lived in the Netherlands, a country of defeat, surrender and occupation, I wouldnt be able to grasp that concept. Just another case of nation envy. You will never be able to picture signs that say "Netherlands, a Nation of courage" because it does not apply.

Now that is really arrogant, have you any idea what it must be like to live in an occupied country, to be a small country facing the might of some world power and helpless to stop it, that's the kind of arrogance I dislike whether US or any country, an inability to grasp how things are for someone with a completely different set of circumstances to deal with and dismissing them as cowards rather than examine the actual facts. Do you know how many men, women and children suffered and died under the nazis, and even so how many continued as much as they could to offer resistance while under occupation, that takes guts and you could argue that if it wasn't for individuals offering help and suport to allied spies and intelligence the war may have turned out differently. Europe was not a nation of cowards. By all means be proud of your country but don't fall back on blind patriotism to distort the facts.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by ubermunche]

I tried weed a few times when I was younger, but I didn't really like it.
I have never been to the USA myself, I would love to go though.
B t w, the topic "Arrogant Americans" applies to the fruitcakes holding the banners during McCains speech.

My point was not that all people from USA are arrogant. ;+)

Many of you are forgetting one crucial fact, almost none of the 260 millon Americans alive today are Americans by "an accident of birth"

We are Americans because either we or our forefathers consiously CHOSE to be Americans.

Both of my paternal grandpartents had the courage to leave the country of thier birth, brave the atlantic, and create a life in a strange land with no more than the clothes on thier back and a few dollars.

My maternal grandfather and grandmother were both the children of immigrants and my wife is an immigrant.

So how then do you have the arrogance to tell us we don't have the right to be proud of a country that our families and ourselves have built from nothing?

America is the proudest of nations because America is a country populated by those who chose to be Americans and thier decendants.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Originally posted by Jakko
Hmmm, who's jealous A R?
Did you post in the right thread?

Oh, absolutely. By the way, since you live in the Netherlands, are you perhaps in one of those internet cafe's that sell the wacky weed? Seems like your diatribe is fueled by something other than grey matter.

And another question; have you ever BEEN to the USA? If so, for how long, and where?


And what about the unmitigated arrogance of your statement, "if you don't like it, stay out of MY THREAD". People who live in glass houses....

[edit on 31-8-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

Careful Jakko, AR's next statement will be something like, "You'd be speaking german if it wasn't for the US" it normally comes after "Your jealous" and "Have you been to the US"

Great argument AR, you've excelled yourself.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by Koka]

I'm American, but grew up mainly overseas. Whenever I would return to America, I would always find it strange just how many American flags you'd see everywhere, and how you'd have to say the pledge of alleigance in schools and salute the flag, etc etc. It was the like the whole nation was a pack of boy scouts or, dare I say, young fascists.

Since I've returned, I've spoken to many people about this difference between America and the rest of the world. The impression I get is that the majority of them feel that there is nothing wrong with such overt displays of patriotism. Most say it shows pride in their country.

I agree with the idea that you shouldn't be proud of what you are, but of what you have done. One thing I have learned from my experiences in other countries is that people everywhere are essentially the same. To take pride in your country is one thing, but to believe that you are somehow blessed or superior because of your country to the rest of the world is another. And sadly, this is how I think most "patriotic" Americans feel. To me, it just seems like one more symptom of how removed many Americans are from the realities of the world.

We like to fool ourselves that we are somehow superior because of the course of historical events, that we have the worlds best form of government or that we single-handedly saved the world in world war one and two. While the US has made many great contributions to the world, it behooves americans to view their countries achievements humbly and remember that there is also much to stain America, and much Americans have to regret. Just like every single other nation in the world.

I won't go into the politico/historical aspects of it all, either, except to say, as someone else has, "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

-koji K.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by koji_K]

Jakko:

"Because you guys have the biggest hamburgers? Because the weather is always nice over there?
Is this about a location? "

"My point was not that all people from USA are arrogant. ;+) "

You strike me as a very confused young individual.

Make your mind up......................

Are you anti american or not?

[edit on 31/8/04 by Klepto]

Originally posted by fawlty
I am proud of my heritage and my country and I offer no excuses to anyone. Just because you are not proud of your heritage and your country does not mean others shouldnt be.

I don't see why I should be proud about living in any country.

We are a nation of courage in comparison to other nations out there.

What's that based on? Do you really think other countries have a higher percentage of coward people than the USA?

Look what appeasement in WWII did for the Netherlands.

Do you know what you are talking about?
Probably not. There was no other way for the netherlands to handle the invasion of the germans. The dutch army was worth nothing, because the netherlands just did not expect such an invasion.

If it wasnt for the United States there wouldnt even be a Netherlands or a France. Just as in the past we and when I say we, I mean the troops overseas who risk their lives, courageously meet their objectives.

A lot of people risked their lives in a courageous way in that war. It was not a USA vs Germany situation.

There is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and in your heritage. I suppose if I lived in the Netherlands, a country of defeat, surrender and occupation, I wouldnt be able to grasp that concept. Just another case of nation envy.

I don't envy anyone who thinks so highly of himself that he wants to wave such banners in front of international cameras, it's dumb no matter how true it is.

You will never be able to picture signs that say "Netherlands, a Nation of courage" because it does not apply.

What would you know about that?
Honestly such discussions were really not my objective when I started this thread. We could make a new thread for an in depth analysis of WWII.
What's for sure, is that the USA is not more or less courageous than other similar countries, based on history so far.

I also think the banners were about Bush having the "courage" to throw 40000 bombs on iraq, but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Jakko
I tried weed a few times when I was younger, but I didn't really like it.
I have never been to the USA myself, I would love to go though.
B t w, the topic "Arrogant Americans" applies to the fruitcakes holding the banners during McCains speech.

My point was not that all people from USA are arrogant. ;+)

Then maybe you should have said that instead of starting a thread that insulted the entire country. Get your head in gear before your mouth, so to speak.

The "fruitcakes" you refer to were exercising their right to free speech, something this country was built upon. Your disagreement with it, or your claim that nobody in Holland would do something like that, simply shows cultural differences, not that the individuals are wrong. They would no doubt say the same about you.

I have only briefly passed through the Netherlands, but I have numerous friends from there, so I would never disparage the country, as I have no first hand knowledge other than what my friends have told me. Before you start speaking ill of this country and its people, come here and see and meet us in our own environment. To do otherwise shows ignorance on your part.

Originally posted by Klepto

Are you anti american or not?

[edit on 31/8/04 by Klepto]

Of course not!
The hamburger thing was just a joke, not ment to insult. (even though I think you do have quite big hamburgers ;+)
I like america, but as most other countries, it's far from perfect.

BUT JAKKO, WHAT YOU FAIL TO REALISE IS THAT THERE JOB IS DONE, THEY WANTED TO GET ON THE MEDIA, GET NOTICED AND CAUSE A RUCKUS! YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY WHAT THE PEOPLE WHOM YOU SEEM TO DESPISE HAVE TOLD YOU TO DO, YOU HAVE REACTED.. GOOD OR BAD MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE I WAS NOT EVEN AWARE OF THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT UNTIL YOU MENTIONED IT! YOU HAVE UNWITTINGLY BECOME A VEHICLE OF WHATEVER MESSAGE THEY WERE TRYING TO SEND OUT!

...sorry about the capital letters (Caps Lock on) :/

Thanks Koji, that's exactly what I was talking about.
A pretty honest and clearifying post you made there, at least for me.

Originally posted by Koka


Careful Jakko, AR's next statement will be something like, "You'd be speaking german if it wasn't for the US" it normally comes after "Your jealous" and "Have you been to the US"

Great argument AR, you've excelled yourself.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by Koka]

Nice try at a hijack there, Koka...no dice. Do not presume to put words in my mouth. You prove your ignorance every time you try....


get a life

so what about points...

Jakko can have mine if he wants.

and Jakko does have a point, we were all born into our nationalies. i feel very lucky and blessed to be born an american. the conviniences and freedoms i enjoy are more than i deserve; somebody else paid for those. i appreciate that from them.

while america has a lot to be proud of, there is a lot to be ashamed of also, but if broken down enough the blame lies with individuals. as soon as each individual, regardless of race, class, nationality or religion realizes we are all equal, threads like these should be no more.

america is the greatest empire (yes empire) in recorded history, and i am lucky to live in this age. i am blessed to be an american, and i would die without question like many before me for america. however, i will not die or KILL to line someone elses pockets.

Not all americans are ignorant, but with the conviniences available in the USA, it is very easy to become so. It is up to you as an individual to avoid becoming so, for your sake and generations to come.

-lost

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
And what about the unmitigated arrogance of your statement, "if you don't like it, stay out of MY THREAD". People who live in glass houses....
[edit on 31-8-2004 by Affirmative Reaction]

Yes I apologise for that rude comment.
When people make posts like "HES JUST DOING IT FOR THE ATS POINTS" I get kinda pissed.

Maybe if I could buy a car with ATS points I would make meaningless topics to get points, but this topic was actually ment pretty serious.