Challenge to Atheists!

reply to post by David291

funny that you should mention this ... i was gonna but then didn't want to 'offend' anyone and still don't, however, since you brought it up...

This talk of lucifer or satan, well surely if God was an all power, all loving God, he could just kick the s# out of him and be done with it.

not only do i agree but i've often wondered why prayers (of many religions) end by offering reverence to A pagan god??? (for those who don't know, pagans worship many gods)

i would think 'amen', as reverence to any god other than the intended one would have been amongst the first to be changed or eliminated.
Elohim, Christ, Jehovah, Allah, Alpha, Omega, pick one, any one you want and offer reverence to him by name, not some other ... why does this particularly ancient ritual (and i do mean ancient) seem to carry over in all current religious practices?

Originally posted by Ozvaldo

Reply to SimonPeter

Quote: What are you reading out of ????? The King James Version says. "their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes , and their tongues shall consume away in their mouths". Having spent a lot of time as a young man reading about Hiroshima and Nagasaki along with the pictorial showing bleached skeletons almost intact minus an intact skull if I remember right ,that is a very good description of the effects of a nuke . Israel does have a nuke arsenal . . Read Ezekiel 37 the re inhabiting of Israel by the Jews . Ezekiel 38 & 39 the war against Israel in the latter days .


That's just you're interpretation.


It could also be interpreted as the results from a massive solar flare? Or massive meteorite? and probably many more things.

That's if you a naive enough to believe in this tosh in the first place..

edit on 24-8-2011 by Ozvaldo because: typo

edit on 24-8-2011 by Ozvaldo because: (no reason given)

It could also be a case of spontaneous self-combustion, to add to the mass of predetermined answers, based on tailored 'facts'.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

God cannot stand the sight if sin nor be in its presence.

if this is true, why do soooooo many criminals "find God" while in jail, surrounded by sin and sinners ???

Because they find Jesus, and through Jesus they can be with God and are FORGIVEN of their sins. Without Jesus there is no reaching God.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by David291

 

funny that you should mention this ... i was gonna but then didn't want to 'offend' anyone and still don't, however, since you brought it up...

This talk of lucifer or satan, well surely if God was an all power, all loving God, he could just kick the s# out of him and be done with it.

not only do i agree but i've often wondered why prayers (of many religions) end by offering reverence to A pagan god??? (for those who don't know, pagans worship many gods)

i would think 'amen', as reverence to any god other than the intended one would have been amongst the first to be changed or eliminated.
Elohim, Christ, Jehovah, Allah, Alpha, Omega, pick one, any one you want and offer reverence to him by name, not some other ... why does this particularly ancient ritual (and i do mean ancient) seem to carry over in all current religious practices?

Because we were all one people at one time. We all came from Noah and his sons. On some subconcious level man is hardwired to believe in a higher power. What they do NOT know is that higher power is God. Even the bible tells us that man in his heart of hearts knows God exists. Unfortunately many people choose to ignore that little voice/feeling and do whatever they want and live for selfish reasons. In EVERY culture i have run across there is always some sort of belief in a higher power, wether its God, or the earth mother and the Great Spirit.

However, it does me no good to even bother talking to someone who doesnt ave an open heart and who cannot believe in anything higher than himself/herself. There will always be those who believe and those who do not. If you do not then that is your choice "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Because they find Jesus, and through Jesus they can be with God and are FORGIVEN of their sins. Without Jesus there is no reaching God.

in this, we'll have to agree to disagree.
IF god is omniscient, he is everywhere and acutely connected to and with every sin
IF god is omnipotent, he needs no intermediary
Since Jesus was but a human, as am i, why would anyone consider us different?
how is this Jesus person, any greater a child of god than i?
It is written that we are all created in the image of god, if that be so, how are we different than he?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Noah ?? how did Adam & Eve get lost in the shuffle?
noah appeared many, many moons later as did Jesus

On some subconcious level man is hardwired to believe in a higher power. What they do NOT know is that higher power is God

on some level in most societies, man is 'conditioned' to believe such nonsense, i agree.
what they have yet to discover is the 70%+ of the brain power they've been conditioned to ignore. (or what you call god)

the heart harbors no knowledge ... nice try though.
that little voice or feeling you reference is what i call 'instinct'.
that which encompasses me from birth and has led me into a STO lifestyle, rather STS.
no preacher, no pastor, no imam, no rabbi, no church needed.

i have great belief/faith in Mother Nature.
she is real, she is teacher, nurturer and destroyer.
she displays morality in everything and she is tangible.
your so called god can't even hold a candle to nature, unless you consider them one in the same.

There will always be those who believe and those who do not. If you do not then that is your choice "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

how true these sentences are. As for believing, been there done that, found better.
as for drinking, well, many have been led to the fountain of knowledge for thousands of years, yet we are still having discussions such as these ... you are correct, one cannot force another to drink.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Because they find Jesus, and through Jesus they can be with God and are FORGIVEN of their sins. Without Jesus there is no reaching God.

in this, we'll have to agree to disagree.
IF god is omniscient, he is everywhere and acutely connected to and with every sin
IF god is omnipotent, he needs no intermediary
Since Jesus was but a human, as am i, why would anyone consider us different?
how is this Jesus person, any greater a child of god than i?
It is written that we are all created in the image of god, if that be so, how are we different than he?

God is not of this world. He is omniscient, but being able to be everywhere at once does in no way mean he is connected to sin because He does not sin.

God is omnipotent, but he will not come to earth as the Father because earth has been cursed with wickedness and sin and he cannot abide the sight of sin, which is why he turned his back on Jesus when Jesus died on the cross and all the angels in heaven wept with sorrow.

Jesus was born of a virgin and had no earthly father, he is greater than man because he is not of this world, and he is perfect, YOU are not perfect and can never be no matter how hard you strive, you will fail no matter what.

Jesus is not a "child" of God, he is God in the flesh, a part of God himself, he is "I AM" in the flesh for Jesus said to the Pharisees "I AM, the truth the life and the way, NO ONE comes to the Father but through ME", you cannot claim this, so you are very different from Him.

We were created in the IMAGE of God, this does not mean he made us like himself. We were made in his likeness in that he gave us a Body,Spirit and Soul, our own personal trinity but we are NOT his equal. We were made to be his companion, not his equal and he wished of us to love him of our own will.

reply to post by Honor93


Yes NOAH. All that went before the Great Flood perished, leaving only one bloodline, the line of Noah. Even though Noah was probably Adams great-great-grandson. We are decended from Noah and Adam by default, but it was from Noah and his sons that the current world and nations came into being from.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

so here's a question for you and other 'believers' ...
history shows/depicts 'rainmakers' as nothing more than a collective of human energy focused on achieving a specific goal (rain) and in many instances, their collective energy produced raindrops ... question is, which god answered their prayer ?? the god within that grew with their collectively focused energy or some imaginary entity that is stationed somewhere amongst the Universe, outside of this time/period ?

reply to post by Honor93


Satan is the Lord of this Air/earth, he can cause whatever he wishes. Ofcourse you knew i would say this which is why you asked it in the first place. If it is not of God it is not divine, if it is not divine it is unholy and unholy is Satans territory. If they were using their own human energy than it was not of God, it was from something else. Fallen angels can do anything an angel can do and they want to be worshipped for it. If you tried to worship one of God's angels they would be horrified and tell you to stop.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You wrote:

["We all came from Noah and his sons."]

Quite a fascinating mythological story, if one disregards what happened to the hamites. But well, they had it coming for not obeying authority.

Quote: ["On some subconcious level man is hardwired to believe in a higher power. What they do NOT know is that higher power is God. Even the bible tells us that man in his heart of hearts knows God exists."]

An interesting addition to the christian collection of hijacked systems, christian freudianism. Apart from that freudianism in itself is questionable, this quote can hardly be counted as a factual argument 'challenging atheists', as it's an assumption based un unverifiable generalization, which even in some cases can be disproved on the spot:
I do not in my heart know of any 'gods' existence.

Quote: ["Unfortunately many people choose to ignore that little voice/feeling and do whatever they want and live for selfish reasons."]

It's more reasonable to consider the option, there ARE NO small voices of that kind.

Quote: ["In EVERY culture i have run across there is always some sort of belief in a higher power, wether its God, or the earth mother and the Great Spirit."]

Such broad inductive categories are carefully avoided in the epistemological branch called rational reasoning. And as such and once more, doesn't challenge atheists, who mainly rely on rational reasoning.

Quote: ["However, it does me no good to even bother talking to someone who doesnt ave an open heart and who cannot believe in anything higher than himself/herself."]

You have the option of stopping. It's not compulsary to contribute to this forum.

reply to post by underspace


Hi Underspace,

That is what I wanted to say,it is exactly what I have seen too--- I tried to write that too, but I got side tracked here-But yes, I agree , you got it exactly It is all about this Something is Uncreated, Always Was and Always will be, has to be Real because It was not created-- Well, it makes sense to me---so, Yes, me too, I see That and It is so profound that I call It God, but calling it God just means that It is Supreme or Beyond our comprehension---Because It is Eternal, that makes it "God" but you could call It anything really, the fact is that It does exist because It does, Something caused all this, and what ever It is, It has to be the First Cause--- Well, I won't try to say it again, you really said that very well---

Just to say thank you, Sweetems

P.S. did you read that little booklet I mentioned?--- Go see this:

www.williamsamuel.com... Go to the free gift at the top of the page "2+2=Reality" pdf download --- By William Samuel---

You will like him---go see.

- Thanks,

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Because they find Jesus, and through Jesus they can be with God and are FORGIVEN of their sins. Without Jesus there is no reaching God.

in this, we'll have to agree to disagree.
IF god is omniscient, he is everywhere and acutely connected to and with every sin
IF god is omnipotent, he needs no intermediary
Since Jesus was but a human, as am i, why would anyone consider us different?
how is this Jesus person, any greater a child of god than i?
It is written that we are all created in the image of god, if that be so, how are we different than he?

God is not of this world. He is omniscient, but being able to be everywhere at once does in no way mean he is connected to sin because He does not sin.

God is omnipotent, but he will not come to earth as the Father because earth has been cursed with wickedness and sin and he cannot abide the sight of sin, which is why he turned his back on Jesus when Jesus died on the cross and all the angels in heaven wept with sorrow.

Jesus was born of a virgin and had no earthly father, he is greater than man because he is not of this world, and he is perfect, YOU are not perfect and can never be no matter how hard you strive, you will fail no matter what.

Jesus is not a "child" of God, he is God in the flesh, a part of God himself, he is "I AM" in the flesh for Jesus said to the Pharisees "I AM, the truth the life and the way, NO ONE comes to the Father but through ME", you cannot claim this, so you are very different from Him.

We were created in the IMAGE of God, this does not mean he made us like himself. We were made in his likeness in that he gave us a Body,Spirit and Soul, our own personal trinity but we are NOT his equal. We were made to be his companion, not his equal and he wished of us to love him of our own will.

Right *deep breath*

So God turned his back on Jesus because as you say "he cannot abide the sight of sin".. so to him, Jesus was wrong for taking on the sin... and yet... God IS Jesus and God "sent" Jesus (himself) to save the world from sin... so God created everything.... he created man and sin... and sends himself down to destroy sin and calls himself Jesus and then turns his back on himself because of what he just sent himself to achieve....

*breathes out*

..and before you say Man created sin or whatever, God created man, so therefore he created an imperfect creation.. not so hot this god, sounds like a complete loon to me.

Correct?

reply to post by Dezero


Are you serious?This is what bother me with theists.Did you do any research in ancient astronauts theory?How can you just sayh they believe in ETs,its hollywood! I would recommend you to use the ATS search engine and educate yourself a little bit more on the subject before disclaiming it.ETs creating us actually make more sense than an old beard man in the sky creating us.They didn't create the whole universe,just us humans for slavery purposes.....At least We took time to study your belief,do the same here!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You do know the flood story is from the sumerian epic of gilgamesh right?so is the myth of creation and many other stories in the bible.

reply to post by bogomil



Originally posted by Ozvaldo

Reply to SimonPeter

Quote: What are you reading out of ????? The King James Version says. "their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes , and their tongues shall consume away in their mouths". Having spent a lot of time as a young man reading about Hiroshima and Nagasaki along with the pictorial showing bleached skeletons almost intact minus an intact skull if I remember right ,that is a very good description of the effects of a nuke . Israel does have a nuke arsenal . . Read Ezekiel 37 the re inhabiting of Israel by the Jews . Ezekiel 38 & 39 the war against Israel in the latter days .


That's just you're interpretation.


It could also be interpreted as the results from a massive solar flare? Or massive meteorite? and probably many more things.

That's if you a naive enough to believe in this tosh in the first place..

It could also be a case of spontaneous self-combustion, to add to the mass of predetermined answers, based on tailored 'facts'.

Exactly, funny how SimonPeter hasn't replied back...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

a real conversation minus the quotes from your book of fables would certainly be welcomed, but alas, tis all you've got right?
well, thanks anyway, i prefer to use the brain i was gifted.

i read your book of fables, several versions and a few others because i like to form a well rounded opinion.

curious question about this 'beast' you call satan ...
did it ever occur to the believers that if it were not for satan (or the concept thereof) the Church (all of them) would have been OOB eons ago ?? (Out Of Business - OOB)

satan or the concept of such is the sole reason the Church even exists.
(aside from other nefarious duties of which we've become painfully aware)

no where in any bible, in any scripture or any legitimate teachings will you find the necessity for a building, a leader (pastor, rabbi, blah, blah, blah), a label (Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever), tithes, confessions or any practice of the polarized system propagating itself in unholiness.
it simply doesn't exist ... kinda like that god thing.

through extraordinary OB experiences did i learn a truth which became the catalyst of my enlightenment beyond the cloth, beyond the shackles and the sins and the proverbial teachings of which most are exposed.

as far as forgiving is concerned, i am quite capable of both duties and any inability to forgive myself becomes my problem to resolve.
no prayer and no idol can forgive me, that duty is my own.

as a born sinner, i am not capable of additional sins ... there is no sin greater than another.

this has to be one of the most conflicting series of words ever written ...

We were created in the IMAGE of God, this does not mean he made us like himself. We were made in his likeness in that he gave us a Body,Spirit and Soul, our own personal trinity but we are NOT his equal. We were made to be his companion, not his equal and he wished of us to love him of our own will.

how are we made to be his companion but not his equal ?
since image reflects an exact copy, how are we different than He ?

image by definition = 1 : a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing; especially : an imitation in solid form : statue ~~ 2a : the optical counterpart of an object produced by an optical device (as a lens or mirror) or an electronic device b : a visual representation of something: as (1) : a likeness of an object produced on a photographic material (2) : a picture produced on an electronic display (as a television or computer screen) ~~ 3 : exact likeness : semblance -- God created man in his own image — Genesis 1:27 (Revised Standard Version) ~~ 4 : a tangible or visible representation : incarnation, copy (the image of filial devotion)
source

To love thyself is to love god (or so has been taught), to love the neighbor is to project god ... is this really less than obvious to a wise soul?

For it is not all of life to live, nor yet all of death to die. For life and death are one, and only those who will consider the experience as one, may come to understand or comprehend what peace indeed means. Edgar Cayce

The greatest peace begins inward and radiates outward ~~ not the other way around.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Honor93

 

Yes NOAH. All that went before the Great Flood perished, leaving only one bloodline, the line of Noah. Even though Noah was probably Adams great-great-grandson. We are decended from Noah and Adam by default, but it was from Noah and his sons that the current world and nations came into being from.

well ok if that's the fable you choose to believe.
the ark ?? well, let's just say it isn't part of any tangible history.
the survivors ?? how do you know? were you there?

if i said my soul was born of Atlantis, how would you determine i wasn't ??
same with the story of noah and the ark and any survivors ... nothing substantial.
there is only the fable and one man's belief in it, nothing fancy and nothing more.

Nice to see how the thread is going on after I stop posting. I have been reading through the posts and in reply to the questions that God is dead well, that means your saying that God is limited where as I have been saying he is infinite not in just energy, but in his attributes he has told us that he possesses such as: when Muslims start anything they are meant to say "In the name of God the most beneficent the most merciful, most if you think about would mean infinite as when you use most you use it to describe who as more of something than anyone else. One thing I would also like to say is that Islam is not the only way, but it is the most accurate. That religion depends on where you were born, well in the Qu'ran it says that God sent a prophet to each nation. So he never left anyone out. And even when time passed he updated the religions as Man grew more intelligent, over time. And look how the religions have spread! Everyone who is connected to the world will have heard of the religion. And Islam and the other religions are meant to bring you to your highest state of mind.

reply to post by GonzoSinister


First of all whoever said life was about fun? For your next point I think you misunderstood me. For example just because I call myself a Muslim it doesn't mean I am one. Being Muslim is a state of being not just a title or name for you. So when Judaism was started they were Muslim (Note that Muslim is an Arabic word) so one could take the perspective that when Judaism was founded if it was founded by people who spoke Arabic they would have been known as Muslims. First of all why is it important where in the world man started? And second I don't know because in the Qu'ran He told us what was important and he lets us discover science for ourselves. One thing Atheists constantly overlook is that God gave us free-will. Second Islam may have diverged but we we have ONE God, We have ONE Book, our prayer is Similar, our religion is intact. Only on certain things in the religion our disputed on mainly because God lets us develop and learn as well. If God gave us everything in a Book then how would we learn and develop? For your next point, we don't worship the Prophets. They are examples to us, because they are perfect human beings with perfect moral character. So your point is invalid. For your next point I actually don't understand what you are trying to say. Please explain this in more detail.