Challenge to Atheists!

Without going into who God's identity might be, I do find the Atheist belief--or lack thereof--quite puzzling and pompous in light of what to me is a slam dunk.

To consider that our consciousness and ability for abstract thought culminates in our "awareness" and yet the complexity of the universe--to them--seems to be, then, a mechanical process that possesses no such awareness...truly doesn't compute.

I think some folk get turned off to the very solid arguments for intelligent design because it's associated mostly with Christianity. Leave that part aside for a minute, dear Atheists--and prove to me that you really are as smart as you think you are.

reply to post by Adurna


I'll Give it a go...

Where to start... your first points based on the fudementals of Physics...

two major factos in what you are saying, first... we base what think about the universe on what we currently understand, this is a diffrent view point from those who are religous as they base what they think about the universe on what someone else has taught them a long time ago and have choosen to accept instead of question or develop there beliefs as the human Race progresses.
I find this attitude Scarey and self absorbed, if you truley beleave you have all the answers and your God created everything then what would be the point in living on this earth, if everything was already known by your God, nothing was created by accident or by circumstance then what where would the fun in life be??

You Claim everyone is born Muslim.. so first this means if you are only looking at Jews, Christians and Muslims why do the other religons exsist?
you said Jews were infiltrated and the chrisitanity was corrupted by the church so Islam was created (or taught) by Muhammed to sort this on gods instruction, so why are there many other religons world wide that do not and have not ever beleaved in the one god? are we suggesting God only cared enough to teach some of the races of earth about him and let the others worship who they want.

Curiosly at this point where do you beleive man orginated from, not as in what story do you beleave, but essentially geogrphical location? i ask this as with science you can show genetic markers that are present in some humans and not in others, where did there genetic diversities come from unless we bred as a species (and in some cases interbred with other similar species) across the face of the earth and across many many many years??

Now the biggie, what age do you think the earth is? i dont care for carbon dating arguments or anything similar to that but if you beleive there were not dinosaurs or that we lived along side dinosaurs then i take it you feel they were so unimportant for anyone to mention throughout the creation of man stories and the exodus of the jews or when mohammed had to battle a t-rex to prove his worth (citation needed)

what about the fact that if God a super being who created time and space (and thus lives out with such boundries) would not create a religon that could be infultrated or corrupted, unless he decided that is what he wanted to happen, unless as a religous person you are suggesting god can make mistakes?
also surley you then need to appreaciate that as Islam has splits in it of slight variations of beliefs and how god would like there rules to be carried out somwhere in Islam has also been corrupted or everyone would be in agreement of God's word and views. and by your logic, the religon has then been compramised and God must have sent a prophet again to re-attempt a religon that has not been corrupted in any way?

Also, from my understanind of the three big middle eastern-western world religons, God is not a fan of people worshiping false gods, yet Islam have expressed there disgust at people portraying there holy men in graphical form (paitning pictures etc) surley there is an argument that this is putting these Prophets above the level of man and thus worshiping them, all men were created equal were they not? surley this then goes against fundemental beliefs taught by all holy men of these religons.

Going back to your understaning of the universe, do you beleive all the stars you see are (or at least some are) similar to our sun? and have a solar system that surrounds it? now if you do, do you think God has created other creatures on other planets? or do you think we are the only living organisims in the entire universe? obviously if you believe there are more than just us even down to a lump of bacteria on a planet a hundered million light years away then your God must have created them, why? why do you beleive he would do this? and if you do not believe there are do you think he really got into creating suns, stars and planets in a big way and couldnt help himself?

this is actually why i have an issue with people who argue for religon.. not that they believe things, but they refuse to actually show there beliefs of all the things that cannot be explained by the devine creator theory, that they feel the dinosaurs or a hundred billion planets are not important enough to explain, that they feel what is written in holy books should never be questioned....

So can you please pick aprt my post explaining your theories on all the things science have shown us and explain your (and your religons) stance on the questions i have put forward?

How about we turn that around, God produces you---and the 'ego' has no real truth to it at all---Maybe just the very fact or action of writing and or that someone can shout "there is no God!' can only happen because God is the Action that is going on---There is no other but God Alone, Single and Only. Perhaps the miracle of communication by internet and information web, and entangelments, and light, and connections that shout "there is no God' are All God's own Self Awareness, which certainly indicates there is Something being this awareness, which can see and be---Who's mind is it really? is this mind that reads and this mind that hears maybe the Same One?--

But the Heart does not forget.

Maybe Consciousness is being the images we call 'body and form and time and things and birth and death' but that is just mistaken sense of 'self'---like playing a role that is Really Not You---Maybe "who you think you are" is not real, but Who You Really are is the reason for being here---To discover your True Self and Be Free.

Life is Otherwise known as Divine Solipsism --- Life/God is Subjective appearing objective.

Maybe God is Unseen and Is seeing Its Self through 'appearances' or reflections or images that we name 'people' and time and things---Maybe so--But all names exist out of God and God's Awareness.

Awareness is primary, appearances appear within Awareness, obviously there would be no appearances without Awareness of them.

Maybe really God is All there is, so how could 'you' see outside of That? You could not 'see' out side of The One Self and the Only Self going on, because there is not "out side' of All, no outside of Total Isness that has no source, that is Sourceless One----that is going here and there is no one else----If there is only One Self and It is God then 'we' cannot see God, because God Sees Itself by way of its expressions, its representations, its images of Its Self, Its reflection---Maybe 'you' are One with God's Awareness so you cannot 'see' God because you are an object---Life is Subjective, within God's Mind--- Maybe? Maybe you might have it backwards, maybe only God is Real and everything else are like holographic images of light within God's Infinity. And You are really One with God, not the images, not the things, but one with God's Eternal Beingness. Maybe Life is quite Grander and More Marvelous and Divine and you have mistaken yourself as an image, and you are Really the Very Living Light of God's Love---

To me, the Absolute and God are the same one---There is Only One Mind 'witnessed' as Its own Self Awareness----Maybe? Just an idea---Just a thought---

Ok, I got carried away with this--- but I did have fun!

Much Love, Sweetems

reply to post by youngathiest


Hello young atheist,

you said "Anyways, I'd like to ask you, assuming you're right, who created god? And who created what created him/her/it? etc."

If you accept for the sake of argument that The Creator exists, then the question "Who created God" is non-sensical. The OP's belief in God is that God is beginning-less, so, you said "assuming you're right" which means that you're accepting the OP's proposition that God exists, and thus, it is as if you are saying "Who created the beginning-less Creator", which is a nonsensical.

Proof you ask for.... proof.....

Man for many thousands or more years has been here... on earth.
Earliest of man as we know him with any spark of intelligence saw the sun
rise and fall in the sky, he was cold he was hot and he knew not why.
He thought to himself “Who makes this happen?" and he made up an answer,
a more powerful magic than himself and gave it a name "God". He called the Sun
a "God" it gave him the gifts of warmth and protection from the cold. This continued
to other things some good some bad all to him was magic, unobtainable science to his
primitive mind and this was the start.

As we as humans grew out of our infancy and our minds processed more information
we found explanations for things this we called science, yet there are those who still
believe there has to be more and declared religions. Some to a singular being some
to multiple beings it was easier to believe for the human mind that there was some
omnipotent entity controlling there lives. Then something horrible happened, some one
somewhere saw an opportunity. Why was this bad? This was greed..... Along with this
greed God/Gods became needy. Wanting you, your soul, and your money to do their bidding.
Greed led us in to war, famine, and hate. Just in the name of some God who had some
greedy man/men as its spokes person.

And now as we step in to our Adulthood we know what we are and we can see though
the thinning veil of man/God and find we have been mislead for too long and the powers
that be are getting scared. We are wakening up from a long slumber and we are not happy.

I did my homework can you do yours ? Now I ask you to prove me wrong..........

reply to post by 1PLA1


You said "IMHO if you believe in the true God you would also believe in His Son".

If you believe that The Creator of everything sires, then you are implying that God is a spatial entity and exists in a place. Basic logic dictates that whatever is physical needs space to exist. Therefore, you are saying that God needs space to exist, albeit you claim to believe that God existed before all spaces and places and that God is transcendant/free of need. Not to mention that the bible says that God is in Heaven. God existed before the Heavens, before light, darkness, time, and space, and all places. Thus, God existed without a place and without a shape and God exists without a shape/place. Purporting otherwise (which it does in the bible) would be contradicting the conviction that God is Perfect and free of need.

reply to post by Adurna


Heres my thing on religion.. Say you were born on a farm with no technology what so ever, and say your mom taught you from the minute you were born that, "hey see this cow over here thats your god you worship it ok".. You would then be conditioned from a very early age that the cow was your god and you would have no idea about the character jesus.. I know it's a weird comparison but my point is that we believe whatever we are taught from a very young age, untill we get to the age where we can decide for ourselves..

reply to post by Adurna


Ok good post.Now I do believe in God just that I think all three abrahamic religions,which are connected as you pointed,have too many contradictions within their own Holy writings.Now consider this:
If God is the alpha and the omega,and he is all knowing,then he must know what i will do from my birth to death right?that would mean Mankind has no choice of doing good or bad if everything is already written.Therefore there is no such thing as a sin?If I kill someone right now,God knew i would kill that someone even before i was born so it can't be consider a sin.It's either that or God is not all knowing,therefore is not God.

What are your takes in this?

Everyone is born Muslim but the world takes you away from what you were meant to be.

Everyone's not born a Muslim dude, do you really think that? If you ran an experiment where an atheist family adopted a newborn baby, and never said a word about any religion at all during their whole life, they would not one day become a Muslim. Is there a Muslim gene that passes down that religious belief or something? :shk:

About your theory that God initiated the Big Bang, I disagree with you there. I don't think God was responsible for it, a trend throughout humanity has been to use a deity or outrageous explanation in order to make sense of what we are seeing. For example saying that the sun rising is caused by a chariot pulling it across the sky, or thinking an eclipse is caused by a dragon eating the sun, and so on. However as our scientific understanding has increased over time, our needs for silly religious explanations have decreased.

I think the theory that God was responsible for the Big Bang is just another cop out explanation for not knowing for sure how to explain something scientifically. Give it a couple centuries, I bet we'll have figured it out somehow.

Could God have created it? I guess it's not impossible, but like others brought up then what created God?

reply to post by Dezero

this is one of the best lines i've heard yet
been indoctrinated much ??

I am almost certain if there was no western interference Muslims, Christians, Jews and even atheists would live together in a happy society.

i would suppose history isn't one of your strong suits, eh?
western influence has only been around for a couple hundred years ... yet, for centuries, interfaith relations have been anything but cordial, communal or cooperative and you seem to think western influence is to 'blame' ???
my, my the children of tomorrow really have no concept of yesterday, do they?

It is happening in some places.

i challenge you to present one (not a village but a nation of productive, collective interfaith relations) ... any nation on the planet.

When you blame religion for evils in the world you need to look at the causes - 99 times out 100 it has something to do with the shadow governments of the west.

actually, 100 times out of 100 events, the 'cause' is religiously motivated, religiously covered-up and subsequently expelled from our memories.

yes, the shadow governments (of the world) and their miserable existence do manipulate the religious fervor but bottom line, the sinker always leads back to some religious belief somewhere.

reply to post by TupacShakur

Originally posted by TupacShakur

Could God have created it? I guess it's not impossible, but like others brought up then what created God?

I think often both theists and atheists get hung up on this idea.

Contemplating the origin of origins, what came prior to the Big Bang, and what created God, are really the same question dressed in different attire.

They are all ultimately reaching a similar conclusion. The origin of origins has to be something eternal. Something un-created and timeless. Otherwise we would take it to ad infinitum 'what created it'... The assertion of 'God' is obviously suggesting it is something that has no origin. The only thing that can have no origin is something un-created i.e some kind of eternal component to reality, that yes, transcends the created Universe (in the sense it's un-created). Granted, that does not have to be a "God", but a dimension of reality that is eternal, timeless.

Lets say the physical Universe always existed. Always was and always will be, through endless cycles of Big Bangs and Big Crunches. No origin, it just simply always was. That would be timeless and eternal right? Some people, such as myself, find that no less mystical and profound as the "God' religious people speak of. I feel no matter what belief system you approach it from, addressing the origin of origins will leave you with a deep sense of something mystical...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

now here's the classic (any religious) response we've all come to know so well ...

You can go to wherever the hell you want to go, but as for me? I choose to be with God, and again not a one of you can prove that he doesnt exist so until you can, kick back and relax and have a tall glass of STFU..

really inspiring and enlightening gift you have there

Adurna... Answer my questions damn it!! page six.. you said you wanted questions and you want atheists to take your challenge so step up.. get your reply on!!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

God cannot stand the sight if sin nor be in its presence.

if this is true, why do soooooo many criminals "find God" while in jail, surrounded by sin and sinners ???

reply to post by SevenOhhTwo


...and if the person used there mind they would find that to be absurd. For a cow to be the Creator of this universe? A cow which didn't exist before this world, much less this galaxy??? If a person administered there mind (without any outside influence) they would ponder about the creations and discern that there must be a Creator. The universe could not have initiated itself into existence, for doing necessitates being. Nor could the universe be beginning-less, for that is like claiming we have been anteceded by an infinite amount of time (an infinite regression), and infinity, is by definition untraversable, thus the present has been preceded by a finite amount of time, otherwise the present would never be reached. The person would know that there must be a Creator, they see the intricacy of everything and posit that there must be a Creator for this universe, for it could not have created itself or be beginning-less, and thus it is dependent upon something other than itself. The person would then ratiocinate that The Creator must have existed before everything, before space, places, light and darkness, time, etc. Therefore, the The Creator cannot be perceived by the senses; i.e., you can't "see, smell, taste, feel, or hear" The Creator, for the Creator existed before all spaces, hence, isn't a spatial entity. The person would then think since The Creator existed before all places, The Creator existed without a place and necessarily doesn't need anything, for The Creator existed before everything and never needed it. It would never come into the mind of the person that The Creator was a man in the Heavens (as the anthropomorphic christians say) or that The Creator is a "man in a sky". Never would that come in the person's mind; rather if that thought even came into the person's mind, they could aver that it is absurd, for it is contradicting the premise that The Creator doesn't need anything, for basic logic dictates whatever is physical needs space to exist. In addition, the idea of "Heaven" is not nixed by the mind alone. There is no logical contradiction in believing in Heaven or Paradise, by the mind alone, it is "possible" that the place could exist. Furthermore, it would never come into the person's mind the idea of the christians that The Creator sires, for this entails imputing physicality to The Creator which is nonsensical, as I have already explicated. The person would also reason that The Creator is Omniscient, for The Creator created everything, and creating everything entails knowing everything. Furthermore, the person would know that The Creator is beginning-less for if the so called Creator had a beginning then it would just be a creation, and not The Creator. Thus, The Creator is necessarily sempiternal, for whatever has no beginning has no end. The person would then ruminate and conclude that The Creator is Perfect for The Creator is not dependent upon anything. So, before creating all places and spaces, The Creator existed without a place, and after creating them, The Creator still exists without a place or occupying spaces. The person would reason that to claim that The Creator materialized and occupied a particular place or all places would be contradicting the transcendence/perfection of The Creator, for if one claims The Creator transformed/changed from existing without a place to in a place, change/transformation is either from a deficient state to a superior one or vice versa. The Creator being Perfect would be exalted of both.

In the end, the person would believe that The Creator exists without a place and is not a "man on a throne" or "in the sky". And that The Creator is nothing like the creations...and this...this is the belief of the Muslims in The Creator of the universe.

Originally posted by Reprobation
And that The Creator is nothing like the creations...and this...this is the belief of the Muslims in The Creator of the universe.

I was following your premise until this point. It was inline with my previous post.

That 'idea' is shared among other faiths and spiritual systems. Why single out Muslim?

Also there is a contradiction in your words here. You say the Creator is 'nothing like its creation' yet 'Islam' is a creation..

Also, how do you address the idea of the physicality of the Universe being the eternal component in of itself? In other words, there always was, and always will be, a cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches (or some form of an eternal physical Universe).

reply to post by The GUT


You wrote:

["to the very solid arguments for intelligent design because "]

And may I please hear this 'solid' argument. Including what 'solid' refers to.

reply to post by Honor93


Also if this is true, why did God create sin? Why even create good and evil if you can't stand it.

thinking about it, why did god create all this badness? does make one wonder why an all loving, all powerful god can let this go on and noone should bring"balance" into this or does an all loving, all powerful have a set of rules he needs to follow?

This talk of lucifer or satan, well surely if God was an all power, all loving God, he could just kick the s# out of him and be done with it.

Reply to SimonPeter

Quote: What are you reading out of ????? The King James Version says. "their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes , and their tongues shall consume away in their mouths". Having spent a lot of time as a young man reading about Hiroshima and Nagasaki along with the pictorial showing bleached skeletons almost intact minus an intact skull if I remember right ,that is a very good description of the effects of a nuke . Israel does have a nuke arsenal . . Read Ezekiel 37 the re inhabiting of Israel by the Jews . Ezekiel 38 & 39 the war against Israel in the latter days .


That's just you're interpretation.

It could also be interpreted as the results from a massive solar flare? Or massive meteorite? and probably many more things.

That's if you a naive enough to believe in this tosh in the first place..

Originally posted by David291
reply to post by Honor93

 

Also if this is true, why did God create sin? Why even create good and evil if you can't stand it.

thinking about it, why did god create all this badness? does make one wonder why an all loving, all powerful god can let this go on and noone should bring"balance" into this or does an all loving, all powerful have a set of rules he needs to follow?

This talk of lucifer or satan, well surely if God was an all power, all loving God, he could just kick the s# out of him and be done with it.

And do you really expect to get any other answer than the semantically delicate and confused one of: "We have enough free will to do as we are told...or else".