Challenge to Atheists!

First if this is the wrong forum I ask a moderator to move it. Thank you.

I have been looking through many threads on ATS and have found that many Atheists continuously slander different religions and claiming they have proofs against the holy books! However when I post a logical reply to many of these posts I am Ignored! So I am going to post my main beliefs and facts and then I ask you to challenge these! I also ask the religious among the community to post so that this thread is given attention and not just overlooked. Please note I am a Muslim so don't bring Christian points against me.

So first why I believe in God. I feel I believe in God strongly because I have gone over it logically with scientific theories I am thought at school, not garbage that is randomly taken from the internet. First I present to two scientific statements: Energy cannot be created or destroyed but must be converted from one form to another. The second statement is Einstein's famous theory of relativity which is E=M C2 which is energy equals mass by the speed of light which if simplified that everything around is energy. If everything around us is energy that means that all the energy was there at the big bang and prior to it. Many people say that there could have been a universe before this one and there could of been but you must have an absolute at the beginning that did not have a beginning otherwise you are waiting for the previous one to be created from nothing therefore your waiting for nothing to set something in motion. Many atheists ask me why doesn't God show himself. Well first if he creates everything he is must transcend everything. If he creates time and space then he does not exist within time and space which is where we all reside. That is my fundamental belief in God.

Now for my belief in religion. I believe that if not every religion the three Abrahamic religions at least were created by God. First Muslim means to be in harmony with your creator, therefore everything in nature is Muslim. Humans however have been given free-will so they have the power to move closer to their creator or to move away. Everyone is born Muslim but the world takes you away from what you were meant to be. The reason God gave us religion is to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise how are we meant to know? Morality doesn't exist in science! So he sent us Prophets to teach us how to get closer to God and be what were meant to be. Muslims believe Judaism was, if you will, sabotaged when they were taken as slaves to Babylon and Egypt so it was infiltrated. Then Christianity came with Jesus but is was corrupted by the Church (to Christians look at the history of the Church if you don't believe me) so he sent down Muhammad with a complete religion which was applicable to all times and which he vowed to protect.

So that is the bare bones of what I have to say and note that this was a very brief description. Now come and I challenge you to prove any of what I stated wrong and bring any misconceptions of religion to me and I will do my best to explain. Please note that I will take time to research my answers unlike many of you do. So come on!

I challenge you to prove any of what you stated is true.

You are challenging people to prove a fantasy wrong. It's impossible.

If I told you there was an invisible man in my attic that only I could see or talk to, how could you prove me wrong? He's invisible and only I can see or talk to him...

This is the kind of thread that's going to turn into meaningless personal insults and mass bickering, or will be ignored altogether. You should avoid thread titles that are directly aimed at starting conflict.

reply to post by Adurna


hi op
il have a wee stab
first of all how are we all born muslim then its took away
i believe in god an essence an energy that created us humans and animals.
i believe all religion is bull and just a concept to controll the masses
i will never agree with the bible
how can i believe a story/ies that have been written hundreds of years later
i believe in the here and now and if we all dont get along then there is no hope for the future
maybe armagedon is the only way to wipe out this corrupt world
whom knows
i know this planet is getting sicker by the day and religion is the cause of most of it
yeh i might get slated and bashed for this but in all simplicity
i could not give a toss
bye bye sick world


oh yeh i just bread a new type of killer rabbit
am i its creator?

reply to post by Backslider


Well first of all it's possible to prove their isn't an invisible man using scientific means. Second I proved myself scientifically isn't that what you expect us to do? Disprove anything scientific I said.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5f637019bc6a.jpg[/atsimg]

This is going to turn into a flame war. I'm not an atheist nor am I religious in any matter. I agree with Backslider on how you're trying to challenge this fantasy.

First of all, let me say that I'm NOT an atheist, but I am very interested in this debate.

Even though I am heathen, I still ''believe'' in science. To me, religion is not whether or not I believe in a single God (which I don't), but the belief that the ''mind'' or ''spirit'' will travel somewhere after my body dies. Not that a supreme being created everyone and everything.

To me, the universe is just to complex to have been created by someone/something. Imagine if you had to create DNA strings for billions of billions of lifeforms, create every bit of tiny rock floating around space, every planet in orbit of every star, every molecule in existence. I don't know about you, but that seems like an impossible task, even for some divine deity.

Let me reverse the question to you OP. What would the motivation of God be, to simply keep expanding the universe?

reply to post by davesmart


Well you just stated your beliefs without a shred of proof. Please post something factual if you dont mind.

Originally posted by Adurna
reply to post by davesmart

 

Well you just stated your beliefs without a shred of proof. Please post something factual if you dont mind.

You did the EXACT same thing in the OP..

How can you prove a belief? Do you want him to prove that he believes his belief or do you want him to prove that his belief is true?

You responded to me saying you can prove God exists with science.. Care to enlighten me as to how?

reply to post by VikingDude


It is impossible to understand God. First of all we cant bring him down to our level and ask why he had motivation. He is not like us. We barely understand the human condition so how are we meant to understand Him?
Why is this a fantasy if we have proofs in the Holy Book which I wager none have you have actually read.

reply to post by Backslider


Ok first did you even read my full post? Second he also sent down Holy Books as proof.

reply to post by Adurna


Well firstly I want to thank you for creating a thread which will make me use my brain for once. Secondly, you should know that you probably wont like the rest of what I have to say.

So first why I believe in God. I feel I believe in God strongly because I have gone over it logically with scientific theories I am thought at school, not garbage that is randomly taken from the internet.

Well lets take a look at what you have then.

First I present to two scientific statements: Energy cannot be created or destroyed but must be converted from one form to another. The second statement is Einstein's famous theory of relativity which is E=M C2 which is energy equals mass by the speed of light which if simplified that everything around is energy. If everything around us is energy that means that all the energy was there at the big bang and prior to it.

So if all the energy was already there, how did it get there in the first place? I guess since you believe energy cannot be created from nothing you believe the energy just always has existed, so since God is energy you believe God always has been and always will be?

Many people say that there could have been a universe before this one and there could of been but you must have an absolute at the beginning that did not have a beginning otherwise you are waiting for the previous one to be created from nothing therefore your waiting for nothing to set something in motion.

Hmmm, you really aren't making much sense here. I think you are referring to the Big Bounce theory, and you are saying it could be right but it all must have an absolute beginning? If so, then you still need to explain where the initial energy came from.

Many atheists ask me why doesn't God show himself. Well first if he creates everything he is must transcend everything. If he creates time and space then he does not exist within time and space which is where we all reside. That is my fundamental belief in God.

Fair enough. My basic concept of God is similar to that. I basically see the Universe as one massive intelligent entity. If you look at pictures of the Universe it has a lot of similarities to the neural networks of a brain. But it's a theory, not something I know is true.

Now for my belief in religion. I believe that if not every religion the three Abrahamic religions at least were created by God. First Muslim means to be in harmony with your creator, therefore everything in nature is Muslim. Humans however have been given free-will so they have the power to move closer to their creator or to move away. Everyone is born Muslim but the world takes you away from what you were meant to be.

I wont even bother to respond to this. I'm sure you'll provoke enough response from others without my input.

The reason God gave us religion is to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Otherwise how are we meant to know? Morality doesn't exist in science!

Now we are getting into some good stuff. I completely disagree with you to the greatest extent one person can disagree with another. It's attitudes like that which lead to people who absolutely depend on a bit of religious text to guide their lives. When I do something morally wrong I can often sense what I have done is wrong, because I know it will have undesirable consequences for others. If I were to kill my father in cold blood I would know it was wrong, do you seriously think a person with a soul needs a book to let them know that is wrong?

Hmmm...this has made me really think about some interesting things. Maybe religious extremists are so religious because they are psychopaths. And I'm talking technically here, a psychopath is a person who has an inability to form human attachment and an abnormal lack of empathy. It's possible that the only way for them to acquire a degree of satisfactory moral guidance is to seek religious teachings. Quite an offensive theory I know...but fascinating.

reply to post by Adurna


No, it is impossible to PROVE that God exists. Therefore, we must conclude that God does not exits. Unless of course God decides to pop out of the sky all of a sudden. Face it or continue to live in ignorance.
We have to re-think religion and base it on something that can actually improve relations between humans. Instead of basing it upon belief, it should be a way of living. And I'm not talking about turning the other cheek or ANYTHING like that.
Being nice and helpful towards others, stop hating other people for the colour of their skin and stop being so damn selfish. Being a better person will make YOU God in my mind

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Concerning the matter of energy, yes it all came from God. Yes God always has been and always will be because he does not exist within the laws of the universe as he creates them. Yes it had to have absolute beginning because something cant come from nothing as you need to have a action to start a reaction but something else has to set action in motion. I think you also misinterpreted me. God is not the Universe as we know the universe has a beginning and an end. I'm saying God created the Universe and all its laws so he doesn't exist within the laws of physics as we know today such as time and space. Morality itself does not exist within science. A murderer may not feel the same way if he killed his father in cold-blood? How is he to know that it is wrong then? I agree with your description of religious extremists but I'm not an extremist.

You claim that:

I proved myself scientifically

And then state that:

It is impossible to understand God.

If it's impossible to understand God, then how could you have possibly proven God's existence scientifically?

reply to post by Adurna

something cant come from nothing

But God is an exception to this rule? Or can you explain where God came from?

reply to post by VikingDude


First I think you meant to say exists not exits am I right? Second just because YOU cant prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We are learning all the time. Years ago people thought the Earth was flat. They didn't have the means to prove otherwise in certain ways we do have the means to prove He is real.

reply to post by iterationzero


God didn't come from nothing if he was always there. I proved that God exists I didn't say I understand Him. There are so many things we know but we don't know why they are the way they are.

reply to post by Adurna

Concerning the matter of energy, yes it all came from God. Yes God always has been and always will be because he does not exist within the laws of the universe as he creates them.

So now you're turning it into something completely out of the bounds of science but yet you initially claimed it was based in solid science?

Yes it had to have absolute beginning because something cant come from nothing as you need to have a action to start a reaction but something else has to set action in motion.

You clearly can't see the contradiction in what you are saying. How can it have an absolute beginning but also need something to set it in motion? That would imply there was something before the absolute beginning. God I presume? You still fail at the most fundamental question: where did God come from or how is that God has always existed (in fact your own logic here would presume there needs to be an absolute beginning to God).

I think you also misinterpreted me. God is not the Universe as we know the universe has a beginning and an end. I'm saying God created the Universe and all its laws so he doesn't exist within the laws of physics as we know today such as time and space.

I was simply saying that "God is everything". In my mind the Universe is basically everything. There may be other Universes but that is getting beyond the scope of this debate. If the Universe is literally the brain of God as I suggested then God is everywhere and everything. This is actually quite similar to what you are describing. edit: you state God "transcends everything" but you also state he doesn't exist within this realm, he simply created it. So I guess you're describing something quite different after all.

Morality itself does not exist within science. A murderer may not feel the same way if he killed his father in cold-blood? How is he to know that it is wrong then? I agree with your description of religious extremists but I'm not an extremist.

What does science have to do with morality? You can't even comprehend that morality can exist within ones own self and thus you seek outward sources for guidance, like religion or science (which you quickly realized has no morals, and you aren't wrong).

PS - cheers for the respected foe status.

Your reason for believing in god is that you can't believe in the bigbang as it fails to explain
how something came from nothing? An atheist could throw the exact same argument back at
you, replacing the bigbang for god... science can't explain what happened before the bigbang
but one day it will be able to tell you with certainty, because science evolves and is constanty
adding to its knowledge, on the contrary religion remains static and never changes or adapts.

Your reasons for believing in religion 'as far as i can tell' is that without it people have no
morality, so god made us a rule book to live by. Evolution teaches us that people are born
with a natural morality hardwired into us, its a mechanism thats allowed us to survive and
prosper since our birth as a species....

I would hazard a guess and say niether of the above are reasons why you are religious.
Its more likely because you were born into a religious family/culture and indoctrinated
from an early age.

reply to post by Adurna


Haha, I get it, you meant to put this in the "Jokes and Puns" category.

S&F For a good morning laugh!