For anyone that has any doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ

reply to post by XplanetX
Many of the Psalms were written by court musicians, sycophants wanting to suck up to the king. Psalm 110 is a perfect example:

PS 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord (aka David, the king being flattered and sucked up to)
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
[etc]

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by XplanetX
Many of the Psalms were written by court musicians, sycophants wanting to suck up to the king. Psalm 110 is a perfect example:

PS 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord (aka David, the king being flattered and sucked up to)
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
[etc]

edit on 24-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

To deny Jesus, you NEED to believe that the Psalms were not inspired by God.

reply to post by XplanetX


so are you agreeing that the dead sea scrolls don't actually mention jesus christ? i can understand that they may mention a 'prophecy', but anyone could have fulfilled that prophecy, heck keanu reeves fulfilled that prophecy for me! all joking aside, i am not attempting to disprove anything you are attempting to say, i am only wanting to understand.

prophecy being defined as

proph·e·cy (prf-s)
proph·e·cy (prf-s)
n. pl. proph·e·cies (-sz)
1.
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
c. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
2. The vocation or condition of a prophet.
3. A prediction.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

so a prophecy by definition is the utterance of a prophet? doesn't that literally mean he spoke something, therefore it is believed? and so who was the prophet? and who were his/her followers? seriously, i am not being sarcastic, well, i started off a little bit, but these last series of questions are not sarcasm, they are just questions...

so how did someone's 'utterance' procvide the future masses with the understanding that jesus was this prophecy? couldn't it have been that jesus had heard this prophecy and inspired many to believe he was one? i mean, in today's world, many have claimed to be the 2nd coming of whoever, and are always disproved because everyone who doesn't believe someone else's belief becomes the great debunker, but all that time ago, with no ATS, no msm, no etc, it was much easier to believe someone who claimed such... i don't really know where i was going with this, but i am thoroughly involved now!

reply to post by schitzoandro

i would like to know what doctrine you speak of, sorry i couldn't be more help on that subject, but yes, when i was under the influence i never questioned anything,

The point I was making with the story is that no one asked the saint's opinion. They basically ignored him.

I don't like the book of Revelation. Probably because it uses so much Old Testament imagery. It is my opinion also that Christians who make so much of Jesus as "fulfiller of the OT prophecies" don't bother to read the OT so as to discover how horrifying the ethic of ethnic "chosen ness" and genocide really is.

To use Jesus as the bulwark of Old Testament ethic is an abomination that makes desolate.

reply to post by XplanetX

To deny Jesus, you NEED to believe that the Psalms were not inspired by God.

What? Have I denied Jesus? When?

Why should I consider sycophantic songs to be inspired by God? What god? Yahweh? Well maybe the ass-kissing psalm was "inspired" by the "god" Yahweh.

Originally posted by schitzoandro
reply to post by XplanetX

 

so are you agreeing that the dead sea scrolls don't actually mention jesus christ? i can understand that they may mention a 'prophecy', but anyone could have fulfilled that prophecy, heck keanu reeves fulfilled that prophecy for me! all joking aside, i am not attempting to disprove anything you are attempting to say, i am only wanting to understand.

prophecy being defined as

proph·e·cy (prf-s)
proph·e·cy (prf-s)
n. pl. proph·e·cies (-sz)
1.
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
c. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
2. The vocation or condition of a prophet.
3. A prediction.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

so a prophecy by definition is the utterance of a prophet? doesn't that literally mean he spoke something, therefore it is believed? and so who was the prophet? and who were his/her followers? seriously, i am not being sarcastic, well, i started off a little bit, but these last series of questions are not sarcasm, they are just questions...

so how did someone's 'utterance' procvide the future masses with the understanding that jesus was this prophecy? couldn't it have been that jesus had heard this prophecy and inspired many to believe he was one? i mean, in today's world, many have claimed to be the 2nd coming of whoever, and are always disproved because everyone who doesn't believe someone else's belief becomes the great debunker, but all that time ago, with no ATS, no msm, no etc, it was much easier to believe someone who claimed such... i don't really know where i was going with this, but i am thoroughly involved now!

Is it possible that Jesus was so well versed in the OT that he made an attempt to self-fulfill these prophecies?

If you believe that an ordinary man could fulfill all of the following:

Born from a virgin
Coincedentally comes from the tribe of Judah
Raise the dead
Heal leprosy
Heal the blind
Suffer persecution and then death on a cross
Raise himself from the dead three days later
Reappear to his disciples after his death

Then I guess it is possible. I prefer the option that Jesus was God in the flesh.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by XplanetX

To deny Jesus, you NEED to believe that the Psalms were not inspired by God.

What? Have I denied Jesus? When?

Why should I consider sycophantic songs to be inspired by God? What god? Yahweh? Well maybe the ass-kissing psalm was "inspired" by the "god" Yahweh.

I am sorry.

So Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour?

reply to post by XplanetX

So Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour?

Jn15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.

I'll settle for friend.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by XplanetX

So Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour?

Jn15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.

I'll settle for friend.

I choose to follow him no matter the cost:


MT 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

" `a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

MT 10:36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

MT 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

MT 10:40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.



I choose to call him Lord:


MT 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.

MT 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him `Lord'? For he says,

MT 22:44 " `The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `

MT 22:45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.



And saviour:


LK 24:17 He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"
They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"

LK 24:19 "What things?" he asked.
"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."

LK 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

LK 24:28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.

LK 24:30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

LK 24:33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

LK 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

LK 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

LK 24:40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

LK 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

LK 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

LK 24:50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.



I bolded the word 'Psalms' for your benefit. Your friend Jesus considered them to be inspired by God.

reply to post by XplanetX

The crushing of the serpent's head refers to a future event, this will occur when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

Well that Let Us Reason web site said it was fulfilled by the virgin birth which I find very weird.
Then it goes on to say that Jesus is a descendant of David through Mary and how would anyone even know that since there is no genealogy for her?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by XplanetX

 

I want to make it clear that I only use these references for the genealogy, nothing more.

Why would you post links to it, then?
The first one made me a bit ill.
The prophecy of the serpent having its head crushed was fulfilled by the virgin birth. What?

Really? You didn't catch that? You haven't read Revelations 12?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by XplanetX

 

The crushing of the serpent's head refers to a future event, this will occur when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

Well that Let Us Reason web site said it was fulfilled by the virgin birth which I find very weird.
Then it goes on to say that Jesus is a descendant of David through Mary and how would anyone even know that since there is no genealogy for her?

Matthew gives the Jewish legal genealogy through the adoption by Joseph. Luke gives the blood genealogy through Mary His mother. Heli was the father of Mary.

reply to post by XplanetX

MT 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.

MT 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him `Lord'? For he says,

MT 22:44 " `The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `

MT 22:45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

You really can't tell when Jesus bounces sayings of the Pharisees back at them as sarcasm? Imagine if every sarcastic saying of Jesus were taken as straight statements! Oh, yeah, that is what happens.

LK 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

Here we go again! Can you point out which Old Testament scripture this is? "The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,"

I've already dealt with Jonah and the whale and Hosea 6:2 starting here:
Jesus said, "Away from me Satan...", therefore he is not Messiah

JN 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Jesus warned of the coming of the 'prince of this world'. No sooner was Jesus dead, then the character in Luke 24 shows up with all that Old Testament fulfilled stuff. Jesus said that his disciples would recognize him. Why did it take them so long to recognize this Old Testament preacher? A fraud!

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by XplanetX

MT 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.

MT 22:43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him `Lord'? For he says,

MT 22:44 " `The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `

MT 22:45 If then David calls him `Lord,' how can he be his son?" No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

You really can't tell when Jesus bounces sayings of the Pharisees back at them as sarcasm? Imagine if every sarcastic saying of Jesus were taken as straight statements! Oh, yeah, that is what happens.

LK 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

Here we go again! Can you point out which Old Testament scripture this is? "The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,"

I've already dealt with Jonah and the whale and Hosea 6:2 starting here:
Jesus said, "Away from me Satan...", therefore he is not Messiah

JN 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Jesus warned of the coming of the 'prince of this world'. No sooner was Jesus dead, then the character in Luke 24 shows up with all that Old Testament fulfilled stuff. Jesus said that his disciples would recognize him. Why did it take them so long to recognize this Old Testament preacher? A fraud!

When Jesus says something that is contrary to your belief you conveniently say he is being sarcastic so that it fits with your ideology? Nice one.


Have you ever known somebody that had a beard for the entire time that you knew them and then you suddenly saw them without a beard? Would you immediately recognise them? probably not.



ISA 50:1 This is what the LORD says:
"Where is your mother's certificate of divorce
with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

ISA 50:2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to ransom you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?
By a mere rebuke I dry up the sea,
I turn rivers into a desert;
their fish rot for lack of water
and die of thirst.

ISA 50:3 I clothe the sky with darkness
and make sackcloth its covering."

ISA 50:4 The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue,
to know the word that sustains the weary.
He wakens me morning by morning,
wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.

ISA 50:5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears,
and I have not been rebellious;
I have not drawn back.

ISA 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting.



Jesus was beaten beyond human recognition:


ISA 52:13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

ISA 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him--
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness--

ISA 52:15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.



It was only after he showed them the wounds on his feet and on his hands that they recognised that he was the Christ.

I have already posted scriptures in the OP concerning his death and ressurection.

reply to post by XplanetX


Yeah, people forget that Jesus's beard was yanked out. This too was an OT prophecy fulfilled.

"I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting." (KJV)

"I gave my back to those who strike, and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard; I hid not my face from disgrace and spitting. (ESV)"

Isaiah 50:6

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by XplanetX

 

The crushing of the serpent's head refers to a future event, this will occur when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

Well that Let Us Reason web site said it was fulfilled by the virgin birth which I find very weird.
Then it goes on to say that Jesus is a descendant of David through Mary and how would anyone even know that since there is no genealogy for her?

Matthew gives the Jewish legal genealogy through the adoption by Joseph. Luke gives the blood genealogy through Mary His mother. Heli was the father of Mary.

What happened to your "Fundamental Orthodox Christianity" claim you made for yourself over on the rapture thread?
You just threw that out the window to pay allegiance to your cult.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by XplanetX

 

The crushing of the serpent's head refers to a future event, this will occur when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.

Well that Let Us Reason web site said it was fulfilled by the virgin birth which I find very weird.
Then it goes on to say that Jesus is a descendant of David through Mary and how would anyone even know that since there is no genealogy for her?

Matthew gives the Jewish legal genealogy through the adoption by Joseph. Luke gives the blood genealogy through Mary His mother. Heli was the father of Mary.

What happened to your "Fundamental Orthodox Christianity" claim you made for yourself over on the rapture thread?
You just threw that out the window to pay allegiance to your cult.

Goodness. Matthew is a Jew, he gives Christ's genealogy through his adoption by Joseph, Jews would only accept a claim to be from the line of David through a man. It's their culture, let them deal with the women's lib folks on that. Matthew gives Christ's legal line through Joseph. Luke, a Gentile, goes through his blood line through Mary. The daughter of Heli.

Both Joseph and Mary are from the house of David. Through different sons of David.



What is my "cult" specifically since you've previously admitted to being an expert at cults and their varying doctrines and beliefs.

reply to post by pthena


The Gospel of Thomas is an early gnostic psuedepigraphic text that relies heavily on the Diatesseron which would date it to the late second century long after Thomas had been martyred in India. The interior evidence points to Thomas having been derived from the Diatesseron (a Syriac gospel harmony compiled by Tatian in 170 A.D.), because it has the same order of sayings and when translated into Syriac a series of catch phrases (an old memorization technique also found in the Diatesseron) appear. Further evidence linking the text to Syrian tradition is that the author is self described as Didymus Judas Thomas. Thomas is never called Didymus Judas in the canonical gospels, the only place he is called this is in the Syrian Church. Anything originally written in Syriac was not written by an Apostle and is therefor a late work. Even Bart Ehrman thinks it's bunk, because it doesn't contain any of the apocalyptic imagery common to all canonical gospels, but rather speaks of the Kingdom as having already come and dwelling in those who possessed secret knowledge.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

What is my "cult" specifically since you've previously admitted to being an expert at cults and their varying doctrines and beliefs.

That's really funny you would say that, considering what you said earlier about me.

Of course not. When people "come up" with things on their own that aren't in the Biblical text that gives birth to real cults. (The ones you admit you've never given study to either them or their doctrines).

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Goodness. Matthew is a Jew, he gives Christ's genealogy through his adoption by Joseph, Jews would only accept a claim to be from the line of David through a man. It's their culture, let them deal with the women's lib folks on that. Matthew gives Christ's legal line through Joseph. Luke, a Gentile, goes through his blood line through Mary. The daughter of Heli.

Both Joseph and Mary are from the house of David. Through different sons of David.

It's not orthodox.
You claim to be orthodox fundamental Christian. It is not orthodox to say that the genealogy of Jesus in Luke is actually Mary's genealogy. It is not orthodox that Jesus could inherit the throne of David through his mother. You seem to be saying that he did, rules be damned!

It may be safely said that patristic tradition does not regard St. Luke's list as representing the genealogy of the Blessed Virgin.

Catholic Encyclopedia

. . .and it is from the father that one's lawful descent is to be traced.

Antiocian Orthodox