For anyone that has any doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ

reply to post by bogomil

Gaining 'access' is the point; not quibbling about exclusive labels, which are the result of fourth-hand speculations.

So I stepped out of my new "dark, meaningless" mystery, and walked around it for a bit of an examination. It seems invisible from the outside. No visible control handles. Nothing of value for anyone to want to steal. Excellent! I think I'll keep it for awhile. Which actually means to give it away.

Thanks for the outsider's view. Or was it?

reply to post by pthena


I like your bubble just fine. There are no rayguns on the outside of it, neither are there megaphones.

Besides are the pictures of various divinities painted on it not bad at all. These pictures are confidence-inspirering; I don't have to be a theist to like them.

There are a couple of people in this thread that pick and choose the scriptures that suit their own ideology while ignoring or twisting the scriptures that do not suit there style. For me, it is all or nothing. You must also understand that there are some fraudulent scriptures that were mingled with the truth (gnostic gospels), discernment and a lot of prayer is required to siphon out the enemies work.


2TI4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.


You cannot have it both ways. I had some trouble trying to understand why the OT God seemed a little 'ruthless' in my early days as a christian. It was not until I did my own research and thorough examination of the scriptures through the book of Jasher and the book of Enoch. Two books excluded from the canon for no reason other than the fact that they expose the enemy 'Satan'. These two extensive books from the old testament go into far greater detail about the 'watchers' AKA angels and the tasks God gave them. The book of Enoch in particular describes the mayhem caused by the angels before the great flood when they rebelled against God. They mingled their seed with the women of the earth (through sexual intercourse) and corrupted the flesh of humans (genetically). This also happened after the flood, God asked the Israelites to exterminate tribes of people (some described as giants), ordering the killing of men, women and children. Brutal and sickening stuff. The flood seemed like a less brutal way of dealing with the problem but God had promised that he would never create a deluge over the Earth again.


So if this has happened in the past, why are the fallen ones not mingling their seed with the women today and causing the same mayhem?


2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

God locked these guilty angels away in gloomy dungeons awaiting final judgement. He also put an end to angels having the ability to procreate:

DA2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. (KJV)


We have angels amongst us right now, but their seed will not cleave with ours. I personally think that the alien abductions are examples of fallen angels trying to mingle their seed with ours using various experiments but all of them failing. You will notice, if you do your own research on the subject that most of the victims of these so called 'alien abductions' will describe the encounters as sexual encounters. This is why we do not have the Nephilim (offspring of humans and angels) on the earth today, God has put an end to angels having the ability to procreate with humans.

HEB 13:1 Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

The above verse indicates that in some cases we cannot distinguish angels from humans.


This may all seem a little 'far fetched' but then I guess a man entering the world through a virgin birth, then crucified and raised back to life is hard to top.

reply to post by pthena


Yes but you're throwing out the entire scripture, when you choose to rationalize and do things YOUR way, you totally throw out Jesus Christ's way. And if you are not for Jesus then you are anti-christ. If you DO not obey the Word of God then you are in for a very painful and unpleasant experience when this life ends and the next one begins. You cannot rationalize God's word of your own accord because then you are doing YOUR will and not Christ's will, and then you become the false prophets Jesus was speaking to in the Book of Matthew. You are judged by your works and if your works are lies even if the lies are in Jesus' name and to bring him glory Jesus says "depart from me you workers of iniquity, for i never knew you".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
I don't know if you get what he is saying.
Think of the serpent in the Garden and what he said to Eve, You shall not surely die.
Think of pthena saying exactly the opposite and how unappealing it would seem to just about everybody.
So you don't need to be worried about anyone jumping on that bandwagon, the one with no band.

ETA: I could throw my philosophy into the same general category. How to be a worthy martyr, which would be equally unappealing to practically everyone.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yes but you're throwing out the entire scripture, when you choose to rationalize and do things YOUR way, you totally throw out Jesus Christ's way.

I've read some of your personal testimony, and you are on a path to pay back to God what he done for you. That's a commendable endeavor.

I've been reading and studying the Bible since I was 16. I'm 55 now. I've got many Bibles, some totally worn out. I've studied several systematic theologies, Lutheran, Calvinist, Dispensational, Puritan. I've held high church offices. I've taught at least one person who ended up being an Episcopalian arch bishop. In all those years of knowing doctrine and scripture only one thing turned out to be real for me.

That one thing was the bread and wine of communion. That's when I saw miracles occur, which I don't care to relate publicly at this time. I never read the words, I always said them, looking squarely in the faces of the people. "On the night that he was betrayed, our Lord took bread and broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is broken for you, do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also after the meal, he took the cup, and said, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, do this in remembrance of me.' For as often as we eat this bread and drink this cup, we show the Lords death until he comes."

I was giving Jesus to people and carrying him with me, and we shared Jesus. That's the only thing I knew for sure to be true. All those doctrines, teachings, and other activities was nothing compared with that. Nothing whatsoever.

I really got tired teaching and preaching things that I didn't know, just repeating things that were written in a book. I was a hypocrite, pretending that I knew the things I was saying were true. Oh, I knew all the words, but they were just words. So I walked away from it all.

When I saw the fanatic zeal leading up to the US invasion of Iraq, I couldn't just let it go. So I started fighting the taken for granted superiority exhibited in American Christianity. I fought it with what I had, knowledge of scripture. Eventually, the old hypocritical feeling were making me sick of myself again. So stopped pretending to know things to be true when I didn't. So I became a Pagan, which means to me, what can be determined by ones own experience rather than by accepting as authority what the mainstream accepts as authority.

I recognized that Christian violence is not an aberration of Christianity but actually part and parcel to all forms of Christianity that take for granted that the "god" of the Old Testament is true and honest and just. It just isn't true. He's capricious, arbitrary, jealous(to the point of killing his claimed beloved), violent (to the extent of genocide), and unjust.

Christian fanaticism is sweeping the world again, wherein zealots claim "god" to be at work in military violence, death, destruction, invasions, occupations (especially the Israeli occupation of Palestine) because of some "divine" mandate, or now being fulfilled prophecy. It's happened so many times in history already. There's no excuse for it. Fanatic movements wreaking death and destruction then slowly fizzling out once people start seeing that whatever "grand glorious renewal" they were expecting was sure not showing up!

So yeah! A whole tradition of Western Christianity isn't worth one human life. I'd rather see Christianity disappear than have one more human "righteously" killed. Jesus can even handle it if that means his name is forgotten. It would be worth it to him.

God is dead
Long live God.
Lots were cast to see which God would die
To atone for the deeds of the evil one,
Who had made a covenant
Not using his real name
Only, God.
So a God it must be
To die to break the covenant.
He to whom the lot fell
Clung not to his being God
But became a man to die
To free all men from the curse.
Though there is one less God,
There is now a multitude
Of sons of God
By his death.

reply to post by XplanetX


You wrote:

["There are a couple of people in this thread that pick and choose the scriptures that suit their own ideology while ignoring or twisting the scriptures that do not suit there style."]

This seems to be the most popular approach by a majority of christians, and your alternative....

Quote: ["For me, it is all or nothing."]

......doesn't really imply anything better, until a more specific and detailed methodology is presented. Examplified by this

Quote: [" You must also understand that there are some fraudulent scriptures that were mingled with the truth (gnostic gospels),"]

where doctrinal opposition just is brushed off without any further explanation.

Quote: ["discernment and a lot of prayer is required to siphon out the enemies work."]

This is only 'holier than you' preaching, with no argumental or methodological value.

Quote: [" Two books excluded from the canon for no reason other than the fact that they expose the enemy 'Satan'."]

Which would suggest, that 'Satan' has been part of editing the bible...and that THE ultimate knower (on ATS) of the 'true' bible would be.......guess who?

Quote: ["These two extensive books from the old testament go into far greater detail about the 'watchers' AKA angels and the tasks God gave them."]

And the gnostic texts go in even deeper detail on that, but as you already have a fixed position in this black/white propaganda war, the gnostic Jesus and the gnostic theism is inconvenient for your support of the real demon-pseudogod Jahveh (whose crowd hijacked Jesus according to the gnostics).

If you want to add something credible to this propaganda-infected situation, less propaganda would be advisable.

reply to post by bogomil




I can appreciate where you are coming from. Some of the gnostic gospels have the ring of truth to them (when compared to commonly accepted scripture). If it turns out that the gnostic gospels are accurate and my assessment of them is wrong, then I am sure God will sort that out with me and deal with me accordingly.

Originally posted by XplanetX
reply to post by bogomil

 

I can appreciate where you are coming from. Some of the gnostic gospels have the ring of truth to them (when compared to commonly accepted scripture). If it turns out that the gnostic gospels are accurate and my assessment of them is wrong, then I am sure God will sort that out with me and deal with me accordingly.

I don't think the gnostic texts are much better or worse than christian texts concerning factuality, methodology or semantic precision; but cutting through all this there are cosmogonic and cosmological principles presented, which are far more rational than the genesis/christian versions.

On the societal side, the gnostic Jesus is a gentle person, not an extension of the warrior-king-priest of the 'christian soldier'-type...the christian inheritors of the detestable zaddikites.

reply to post by XplanetX

I just put this statement of yours together with the statement fro bogomil:

I am sure God will sort that out with me and deal with me accordingly.

- bogomil - an extension of the warrior-king-priest of the 'christian soldier'-type...the christian inheritors of the detestable zaddikites.

A disturbing incident of OT "god" dealing with people: This was after the golden calf incident:

EX 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what Yahweh, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to Yahweh today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

So the Levite Aaron made the golden calf, the Levites took out their swords to slay. The Levites therefore were set apart for the service of Yahweh.

I would be willing to bet that the Levites with swords didn't fight each other like gladiators but rather moved in a pack, cutting down the unarmed. I'd bet also that they did not cut down their own friends but rather the unarmed friends of the unarmed. For this they were blessed by Yahweh.

So when your "god" deals with you, will you seek an armed person to fight like a gladiator, or will you seek the unarmed to kill?

Remember that Jesus made reference to this with regards to his disciples. Remember also that you are the one who doesn't allow Jesus to use irony and sarcasm in his speech.

reply to post by pthena


Christianity was never meant to turn into a religion. That was not Jesus' wish. His wish was that christianity be a way of life, because he knew that religions can be corrupted by men and abused and used for evil.

I walked in darkness for a long time, and no matter what i did i could not save myself no matter how hard i strived. At birth God gifted me with an indomitable will, because he knew i would need it in the years to come. The unique gift that God gave me was that no matter how hard i am pushed down, picked on, kicked around, spit on, knocked down or laughed at, i will not give up. I CANNOT give up and there were many times when i begged the Lord to end me because it always felt like a never ending war. This Gift God gave me saw me through the worst hell anyone could exprience at the hands of another person except for what Jesus went through at the hands of the romans as they beat him unrecognizeable.

I owe Jesus my life and my soul because he saved them both, and as the world beats me down i will roar into the heavens and push on because at birth i was given a fire that cannot be put out. My final test was when i learned how to forgive those who had wronged me and Jesus gave me the final gift, the gift of being able to love others no matter what. I know many people have a hard time believing in him, but i do not. I testify to His love and glory, so that all will know that he does exist because there is no way i could have survived what i had gone through and not ended up a murderer or psychotic. I owe him everything and i wish to walk his path no matter where that road leads me to. Some in their blindness accuse me of blind devotion, but i am not blinded. I was blind but now i see. Amazing Grace, that saved a wretch like me.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Christianity was never meant to turn into a religion. That was not Jesus' wish. His wish was that christianity be a way of life, because he knew that religions can be corrupted by men and abused and used for evil.

I agree 100%

The unique gift that God gave me was that no matter how hard i am pushed down, picked on, kicked around, spit on, knocked down or laughed at, i will not give up.

You do seem to exhibit that quality.

I owe him everything and i wish to walk his path no matter where that road leads me to. ... but i am not blinded. I was blind but now i see.

And may you see more! As you do, you may cringe at some things you've held to be true in the past. So it goes.

Christ be with you.

reply to post by pthena


It has always made me wonder wether or not Moses was a dictator with that event. The only sense i could make out of that event was that someone was being made an example of, about 3,000 somebodies. Maybe because they worshipped the golden calf and God really does not like for his chosen people to worship anything other than him.

I also thought that God mellowed out alot after having a son, because i remember in the OT he was fire and brimstone, raining down meteors on the hebrew and opening the ground under their feet everytime they tried to stray away from him. There's a joke tied into that.

"It took God 2 weeks to get Israel out of Egypt, but it took 40 years for God to get the Egypt out of Israel"

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
With Jesus we have the option, actually very strong suggestion to find a greater God.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
NIV

DT 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew face to face, 11 who did all those miraculous signs and wonders Yahweh sent him to do in Egypt--to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

Since no one has seen God, and Moses met Yahweh face to face, then Yahweh is not God. When determining who the Father God of Jesus may be, Yahweh has already been eliminated as a candidate, as far as the author of Gospel of John is concerned.

As for Moses himself: he was the mediator or go-between putting himself between the angel Yahweh and the people. Consider the veil:

EX 34:33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered Yahweh's presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with Yahweh.

When Moses spoke with Yahweh he had no veil on, thus playing the part of the people (human face). When Moses spoke to the people in the Yahweh part he put the veil on. The veil is the mask of Yahweh (the dweller behind the veil). Moses played both parts. As Yahweh, Moses was an absolute dictator. As the man, he proved to be better at saving the people than the "god" was.

Exodus chapter 33 is very instructive. By himself, Yahweh would have totally destroyed the people. Moses stopped him. This is evidence that Yahweh does change, therefore any claim he makes of being changeless is a lie.

MAL 3:6 "I Yahweh do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

He has been forced to change, by Moses specifically, therefore the people haven't been destroyed. Moses is better than Yahweh. And Jesus and his Father are better than Moses and his "god". That is the message of the Gospel of John. The law came through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus. If truth came through Jesus, than what came through Moses was absent truth.

I hope this seems plain to you. I think sometimes this all seems like some dark hidden thing to people. It isn't dark or hidden, it's right there in plain view. Jesus didn't wear a veil.

reply to post by pthena


Ah but Moses did not see God face to face, Moses was only allowed to see God's back because to see God's face would have destroyed him utterly.

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

So, either he did or didnt, but the latter versus of Exodus say he did not see God's face, only his back parts.

www.lookinguntojesus.net...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
Moses was exposed to some glorious aspect of the Lord while having conversations together, where it may not have been visible as a human looking face, but it would have been something analogous to a face, in whatever this glory person was, that was hidden from everyone but Moses.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by XplanetX

I just put this statement of yours together with the statement fro bogomil:

I am sure God will sort that out with me and deal with me accordingly.

- bogomil - an extension of the warrior-king-priest of the 'christian soldier'-type...the christian inheritors of the detestable zaddikites.

A disturbing incident of OT "god" dealing with people: This was after the golden calf incident:

EX 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what Yahweh, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to Yahweh today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

So the Levite Aaron made the golden calf, the Levites took out their swords to slay. The Levites therefore were set apart for the service of Yahweh.

I would be willing to bet that the Levites with swords didn't fight each other like gladiators but rather moved in a pack, cutting down the unarmed. I'd bet also that they did not cut down their own friends but rather the unarmed friends of the unarmed. For this they were blessed by Yahweh.

So when your "god" deals with you, will you seek an armed person to fight like a gladiator, or will you seek the unarmed to kill?

Remember that Jesus made reference to this with regards to his disciples. Remember also that you are the one who doesn't allow Jesus to use irony and sarcasm in his speech.

edit on 26-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

What on earth are you talking about?

God used men to carry out his judgement.

It was a far more brutal culture.


Here is an example where one of Jesus' followers uses a sword and Jesus rebukes him. Jesus states that his Father could put at his disposal twelve legions of angels. What difference does it make whether God commands men or angels to do his bidding?


MT 26:47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.

MT 26:50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

MT 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

MT 26:55 At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.



Death entered the world through mankinds disobedience in the garden. How we die is almost irrelevant, whether it be through the command of God, our own folly or through our bodies failing us.


GE 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
Now I'm quite puzzled. Do you expect me to reconcile contradictions in the Bible? I gave that up 40 years ago. If you want to believe that the whole bible is "The never tampered with and inerrant word of god" then you can kiss your path to truth goodbye.

Or, you can accept that different people wrote different parts of the bible at different times and that later editors weren't quite vigilant about doctoring it all up so as to make it free of inconsistency.

I don't know about you, but when someone says to me: "Talk to my ass." I don't consider that speaking face to face as to a friend. I wouldn't even consider that a friend.

Edit to add:

Whatever is determined about face to face in Exodus or not is not relevant to the John verse anyway. It says "no one has seen God" not "no one has seen God's face"

EX 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

The Law (including the above verse) came through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus.

reply to post by XplanetX

Death entered the world through mankinds disobedience in the garden. How we die is almost irrelevant, whether it be through the command of God, our own folly or through our bodies failing us.

This makes sense to an Israel supporter, who think cutting off people's water supply is fine, then shooting them if they look for water.
This is what will send many to Hell, this cold heartedness that comes from the love of acquisition, that makes their souls unfit for heaven.