For anyone that has any doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ

reply to post by bogomil

Ofcourse a majority of the christianities are 'civilized' these days, but a somewhat cynical, though pertinent question is: Given the chance, which kind of christians would like to run the show once more, and would some of the christianities fall in line again?

Historical precedent:

92% of the churches in Germany of the 1930s-1940s jumped right on the Nazi bandwagon, after all - they were "bringing in the 1,000 year peace mentioned in Revelation".

The American brand is freaky scary because 40% are extreme nationalist expressions :"Every US military action anywhere in the world is automatically 'the work of god'". Last time I checked, the 'N' in Nazi was 'National'.

Originally posted by mehforfun
reply to post by shaneR

 

whether jesus was real or not isnt the problem, he could have been real but "was he the son of god" i mean he could he have just been some very clever dude pulling tricks or just a story someone heard from a friends uncle sisters husband next door neighbour. and if he was the son of god why not show it to the masses like by not dying on the cross and break the cross and super dive kick the dude nailing him to the cross but meh

Jesus could have freed himself from the cross, but if he had done that he wouldnt have been able to redeem mankind through his sacrifice. There was no other alternative, the Father required him to make a sacrfice to save us all and God's will shall be done. Jesus took YOUR place on the cross so that you don't have to die and go to hell if you believe that he was the savior and that he died for your sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day and sits at the right hand of God. Do you think anyone else in history would die for you? Would buddha die for you? Would pagan gods die for you? Would the spirits of the west winds die for you? Who would die for your sins? No one else but Jesus.

The miracles Christ performed were seen by THOUSANDS, not some "next door neighbor". Jesus went to many towns in the region and testified and performed many miracles. He fed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish, raised the dead twice and healed the blind and deaf and cured lepers with which there was no cure for leprousy in those days.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Jesus took YOUR place on the cross so that you don't have to die. . .

I just googled that bit from your post and guess what the #1 hit was.
If your guess was your very own post, then you are correct.
You might want to start quoting the Bible rather than whatever denomination manual you are using to come up with snappy responses.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by bogomil

Ofcourse a majority of the christianities are 'civilized' these days, but a somewhat cynical, though pertinent question is: Given the chance, which kind of christians would like to run the show once more, and would some of the christianities fall in line again?

Historical precedent:

92% of the churches in Germany of the 1930s-1940s jumped right on the Nazi bandwagon, after all - they were "bringing in the 1,000 year peace mentioned in Revelation".

The American brand is freaky scary because 40% are extreme nationalist expressions :"Every US military action anywhere in the world is automatically 'the work of god'". Last time I checked, the 'N' in Nazi was 'National'.

edit on 24-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

You are judging the whole for what some others have done. I can do the same thing. Lets say all jews are evil because they bomb innocent muslims in Gaza when some bad apple extremists are being an ass. Jesus said "judge not, unless you be judged", simply meaning let God do the judging, it is not man kinds right because men cannot see what is inside other men's hearts.

I wonder how many jews are going to be all for driving the muslims out of Jerusalem so they can rebuild the temple mount? I bet you its going to be greater than 92% and how many innocent muslims do you think will die for that cause? Do you think that the jewish nation will be allowed to destroy the Dome of the Rock peacefully so they can rebuild the Temple? Yeah right, i can see that happening....NEVER.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by bogomil

Ofcourse a majority of the christianities are 'civilized' these days, but a somewhat cynical, though pertinent question is: Given the chance, which kind of christians would like to run the show once more, and would some of the christianities fall in line again?

Historical precedent:

92% of the churches in Germany of the 1930s-1940s jumped right on the Nazi bandwagon, after all - they were "bringing in the 1,000 year peace mentioned in Revelation".

The American brand is freaky scary because 40% are extreme nationalist expressions :"Every US military action anywhere in the world is automatically 'the work of god'". Last time I checked, the 'N' in Nazi was 'National'.

edit on 24-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)

I'm not much of a historian (amongst the many things I'm not much of), so thanks for the information. I always appreciate 'across the subject bounderies' shared competence.

I'm increasingly becoming pragmatic after my 1½ year ATS qubblings with christian missionaries, so the manifestation of principles in your example counts more for me than doctrinal 'explanations'. After all, no matter how much I would like to save gas-money by negating gravity, I never get around to getting the knack of it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Jesus took YOUR place on the cross so that you don't have to die. . .

I just googled that bit from your post and guess what the #1 hit was.
If your guess was your very own post, then you are correct.
You might want to start quoting the Bible rather than whatever denomination manual you are using to come up with snappy responses.

Is it not true? Did Jesus not die for your sins? By dying on the cross he took your place in death, for the whole world has sinned and the wages of sin is death. Going to call me a cultist now? Do you seek to judge? Then you shall be judged with the measure in which you judge others.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I wonder how many jews are going to be all for driving the muslims out of Jerusalem so they can rebuild the temple mount? I bet you its going to be greater than 92% and how many innocent muslims do you think will die for that cause? Do you think that the jewish nation will be allowed to destroy the Dome of the Rock peacefully so they can rebuild the Temple? Yeah right, i can see that happening....NEVER.

Well isn't that the point? The Nazis didn't bring in the Millennium either. The misguided notion of a Eretz Israel has already killed 100s of thousands, and driven millions into refugee status. Zionist Christianity has the biggest megaphone in the US, therefore house demolition in West Bank have accelerated, Jewish only settlements in West Bank and East Jerusalem accelerated. I just read the UN report for August yeaterday. The US is paralyzed from pressuring Israel to abide by UN Charter or Geneva Conventions because of the Zionist megaphone.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You are judging the whole for what some others have done. I can do the same thing. Lets say all jews are evil because they bomb innocent muslims in Gaza when some bad apple extremists are being an ass. Jesus said "judge not, unless you be judged", simply meaning let God do the judging, it is not man kinds right because men cannot see what is inside other men's hearts.

I wonder how many jews are going to be all for driving the muslims out of Jerusalem so they can rebuild the temple mount? I bet you its going to be greater than 92% and how many innocent muslims do you think will die for that cause? Do you think that the jewish nation will be allowed to destroy the Dome of the Rock peacefully so they can rebuild the Temple? Yeah right, i can see that happening....NEVER.

I see it happening and it is the upcoming war against Syria which has been the main stumbling block to doing whatever in Jerusalem.
People are leaving Israel all the time who do not support the genocide and ethnic cleansing and once it is down to 100% of who are left who do support it, they will be ripe for judgment.
Anyone who does not, as you say, judge the actions are libel to judgement themselves, "Those who call evil good and good evil are as good as dead, "

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by mehforfun
reply to post by shaneR

 

whether jesus was real or not isnt the problem, he could have been real but "was he the son of god" i mean he could he have just been some very clever dude pulling tricks or just a story someone heard from a friends uncle sisters husband next door neighbour. and if he was the son of god why not show it to the masses like by not dying on the cross and break the cross and super dive kick the dude nailing him to the cross but meh

Jesus could have freed himself from the cross, but if he had done that he wouldnt have been able to redeem mankind through his sacrifice. There was no other alternative, the Father required him to make a sacrfice to save us all and God's will shall be done. Jesus took YOUR place on the cross so that you don't have to die and go to hell if you believe that he was the savior and that he died for your sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day and sits at the right hand of God. Do you think anyone else in history would die for you? Would buddha die for you? Would pagan gods die for you? Would the spirits of the west winds die for you? Who would die for your sins? No one else but Jesus.

The miracles Christ performed were seen by THOUSANDS, not some "next door neighbor". Jesus went to many towns in the region and testified and performed many miracles. He fed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish, raised the dead twice and healed the blind and deaf and cured lepers with which there was no cure for leprousy in those days.

It's apparant, that you will not even consider to un-circle your elaborate circle-argument. It will ever be Ouroboros biting its own tail.

Fortunately that's no a big concern of mine. I have the easy position of just pointing out the circle-argumentability, well knowing that even the guys down in the pub won't buy into circle-arguments before they've had four pints. And there are no happy hours on this forum, someone is always mentally 'sober' enough.

Without YOUR 'sin', not YOUR Jesus. Without YOUR Jesus, not YOUR 'sin'.

PS Buddha broke the circle btw. As I believe one of the OTHER Jesus versions did...the gnostic Jesus.

reply to post by bogomil

PS Buddha broke the circle btw. As I believe one of the OTHER Jesus versions did...the gnostic Jesus.

My Jesus is actually different from the gnostic Jesus, in that he was real flesh and blood, just like us. Before he died he made plain with the bread and wine that he was staying right here on earth. Just like us. The only eternal life comes from the living eating the dead. Life continues and is passed on to future generations. As it is in the physical, so it is in the spiritual. Individual ego identity gives way to the new person, the old is eaten.

The Christian insistence for body resurrection is mere fear of death. Selfish by nature. My Jesus lives today in us, and will continue so.

The gnostics considered flesh to be evil and the spirit as good. The Jesus in Gospel of Thomas broke that dichotomy, flesh and spirit are joined as one, and one is good.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Is it not true? Did Jesus not die for your sins? By dying on the cross he took your place in death, for the whole world has sinned and the wages of sin is death. Going to call me a cultist now? Do you seek to judge? Then you shall be judged with the measure in which you judge others.

Nice that you take some bit of advice (Is this not good advice, to actually quote scripture when it comes to issues which on the balance hang the very eternal fate of the reader's soul?) as being judgement. If all this was undeniable, it would be because of the weight of evidence from the Bible, of which you have none. Cultist if the cult has overtaken the world and has now become the norm, which I do condemn. Be not of the world, would be my next little bit of advice.
Jesus died for our sakes and is a gift from God for us that we could not do ourselves. Through the righteousness of Jesus we can gain forgiveness, for his sake. I believe a more compelling argument could be made in quite the opposite of the statement you made that I earlier quoted, in that we are called to lay down our lives and to join him in death, not in having Jesus being a way to avoid it ourselves.

reply to post by bogomil

Without YOUR 'sin', not YOUR Jesus. Without YOUR Jesus, not YOUR 'sin'.

I guess I should read that napkin some time. I can recognize those terms as logic terms. The only formal training I've had in logic was that which is integral with Euclidean Geometry. That used to be standard in the US. I was shocked a couple of years ago when I volunteered to help a High Schooler with Geometry homework, only to discover that Euclid was missing. Conspiracy to remove logic from American youth?

reply to post by pthena


You wrote:

["I guess I should read that napkin some time."]

Formally speaking, it's probably a minor form of blasphemy doing so, as it pokes fun of the sanctity of circular reasoning. So be warned, logic may imperil your soul.

But then on the other hand, I am as twisted as a corkscrew and as simplistic as an amish, sounding a bit zen, but which is what happens when you are a philosophical scepticist with an interest in epistemology and survives that without climbing on the walls.

The point being, that logic is one of several excellent tools suitable for many situations, but not for all. Especially not in those (possible) scenarios, where there IS no known logic, i.e. in a trans-cosmic existence. The napkin is good inside cosmos, don't try to bring it with you 'outside'.

Said good advice completely ignored by all the 'rationalizing' theists, who have a need to 'prove' their faith (for conversion reasons?) and who turn the whole thing upside down. 'Inside' cosmos they ignore the napkin, 'outside' they try to bring it with them. The very sad examples of 'intelligent design', 'quantum religions' and the bible as 'objective', all of which just makes christian extremism look silly (unless you are a christian extremist, from where it looks brilliant).

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by The GUT

 

Aaaah, my non-root-seeking friend, we all have dreams of tomorrow, where everything will be honky-dory. I'm more concerned about the meantime, because tomorrow never comes around to where it should be: Today.

My faith is very much a faith of today. It produces real results for my family, friends, me, and those I might offer assistance to. I know it's easier for you to reject that than to look at the disease in your life. If you ever come face-to-face with that: I predict an epiphany for you. Tomorrow is about consequences, today is about change.

By which you probably mean the epistle of James (no offence, I'm just being pedantic)? Whom Luther detested so heartely, that it is taken out of some protestant bibles (amongst them mine, so I had to use the satanic device internet to re-read it).

"(also Epistle) a book of the New Testament in the form of a letter from an Apostle : St. Paul's epistle to the Romans." Put that in your Pedanicity & smoke it. And yes, I made "pedanicity" up but I like it heheh.

...because the subject mostly is rather boring for me and wrapped so heavily in faction-propaganda and double-talk, that it's like reading a victorian 'moral' novel.

I'm glad you brought up double-speak as you so often do on these boards when you don't have an intelligent counter argument. You resort to your considerable vocabulary and barf words out that attempt to obfuscate the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. I hope you will be big enough to acknowledge that you sometimes attempt that technique.

Doesn't matter though as many who read this are already aware of that fact. And, just so you know, we don't "argue" with you to change you, we debate with you for the sake of those that are still seeking.

As you have at least SOME of the 'components' I sympathize with, have them decently arranged and aren't invasive about it, this will not count against you karmically, and I will even go so far as to re-compensate your good intentions by, if I ever meet one of the cosmic administrators, putting in a good word for you. That would be in the vicinity of the buddhist heaven(s) I guess.

Gee......Thanks...I think?

reply to post by The GUT


You wrote:

["I know it's easier for you to reject that than to look at the disease in your life."]

The old ticker isn't in topshape, otherwise my life is wine and roses.

Quote: ["If you ever come face-to-face with that: I predict an epiphany for you."]

I'll keep that in mind, should I ever develop a taste for epiphanies.

Quote: ["I'm glad you brought up double-speak as you so often do on these boards when you don't have an intelligent counter argument. You resort to your considerable vocabulary and barf words out that attempt to obfuscate the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. I hope you will be big enough to acknowledge that you sometimes attempt that technique."]

Being flippant isn't the same as double-speak.

Quote: ["Doesn't matter though as many who read this are already aware of that fact. And, just so you know, we don't "argue" with you to change you, we debate with you for the sake of those that are still seeking."]

Some do, some don't.

Afraid our posts will be deleted if this direction of 'character-analyses' continue, so I'll redirect my attention to Jesus.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by The GUT

 

Quote: ["Doesn't matter though as many who read this are already aware of that fact. And, just so you know, we don't "argue" with you to change you, we debate with you for the sake of those that are still seeking."]

Some do, some don't.

True. Sorry for speaking for others.

Afraid our posts will be deleted if this direction of 'character-analyses' continue, so I'll redirect my attention to Jesus.

Amen. He's worthy of our attention and so much more.

reply to post by bogomil


Do you mean groups like the Manichaeans? I don't think gnostic Yeshuah makes any sense. Manichaeism and other purely Gnostic sects were usually Persian or Greek. I think we can all agree that the historical Yeshuah (if you believe he existed) was Jewish and would have been very unlikely to have taught a gnostic cosmology.

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


So, nevermind Tacitus, Celsus, Josephus and all of the people writing about Yeshuah in Palestine and Asia minor within the 1st century. These writings along with the Gospels provide more written evidence of Yeshuah than there is of Julius Caesar. Even Julian the Apostate, interestingly enough, accepted the historicity of Yeshuah and his miracles, but tried to come up with natural explanations for his miracles. Most archaeologists and anthropologists do not doubt the historicity of Yeshuah of Nazareth and the evidence weighs heavily in favor of his existence at the very least.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


No, Yeshuah did not take the punishment we deserve. Substitutionary Atonement as it would happen IS pagan. "Propitiation" as it appears in most Protestant Bibles in Paul's epistles is hilasterion in Greek which actually means expiation. Expiation means to make acceptable or "clean" before God, propitiation means to assuage his wrath. In Hebrews it says that by Yeshuah Moshiyach's most perfect sacrifice, he took on our sins and nailed them to the cross. This is a reference to the scapegoat ritual in which the Jews would place the sin of the community on a goat and destroy it and thus their sin with it. Yeshuah is the Paschal lamb that covers our sin and destroys it's power over us, because the wages of sin is death which is the province of the Evil One. By accepting his sacrifice and following him (not a passive conversion experience, but working in synergy with God) we will never see death.

Penal substitution atonement makes no sense when you look at the implications. It implies that Yeshuah was sent by God to die for our sins because he was mad at us and absolutely had to hurt somebody for it. First of all, this pits the will of Christ against the Father, because Christ freely atoned for us while the Father was too angry to accept us. Secondly, it focuses entirely on the work done on the Cross, but diminishes the importance of Christ breaking the bonds of Sheol, and his glorious resurrection and his ultimate triumph over death. Thirdly, nobody taught this legalistic view of atonement for the first thousand years of the Church's existence, until Anselm came along. If you believe in penal substitution you might as well rewrite John 3:15 so it doesn't go against the theology: "For God was so P.O.'d at the world that he tortured his son to death and since then he feels SO much better"

reply to post by kallisti36

I don't think gnostic Yeshuah makes any sense.

Would you mind explaining why?