2/3rds of the Angels Stood by us, do you appreciate that?

Originally posted by bogomil
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I enjoyed our discussion.

reply to post by AgnarDaGr8


Dear AgnarDaGr8,

1) He is merciful. Wants to let everyone live. 2) He is trying to test humanity. 3)He cannot tell the future. 4)There were never any fallen angels or a devil... That is made up by man. 5)He likes to see pain and suffering. 6)He takes pride in humans begging for mercy

I actually like the range of options as it seems fairly logical, he is nice to he is a jerk, that seems like a full range. The OP assumes angels; therefore, for the sake of the discussion we will skip number four. Now the last two would be very popular with the gnostics and others, whereas the first two would be popular with many Christians. The last two would imply that the "fallen angels" revolted because they wanted to help us, the first two would imply a different purpose or purposes.

Originally posted by MollyStewart
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Dear MollyStewert, So you believe that God works by duress, by fear. Why would you worship or accept such a god as God? I would deny such a god as you describe and I am a Christian, I do not accept your god and you are not a Christian if you do not believe in true free will.

I don't know where you got the idea that God works by duress or fear from my response. That is a middle aged religious notion. I accept and believe in a loving, forgiving, compassionate creator. The Angels of course made a choice and therefore have their own will as I suspect does most life of intelligent design.
My response was that 2/3rds of the Angels stood with God, not with man. They obeyed God, not man. 1/3rd disagreed with God, not man. Man was simply the argument. Nowhere in my original response did I say I do not believe in free will. I am not going into my personal belief with you as it seems you like to be rude with people for their responses and pass judgment on people you don't know.

Cheers

Dear MollyStewart,

I am sorry you thought I was being rude. Not the intent. I understood you to say that the angels stayed because God told them to. He may have told them to; but, we have no indication that he did. If we believe the angels have free will then it certainly means that they made a decision based on more than just a command, they had to agree on some level. Be well. By the way, here is the quote from your response that implied duress and lack of free will

The Angels know God exists so they had little choice in the matter. For them, it was "obey or not" and face the consequences.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Dear Titen-Sxull,

Anyway I'm reminded of the film LEGION in which Michael the archangel is so confident that mankind has redeemable qualities that he actually disobeys God. I'd say that for those 2/3rds of the angels that remained loyal they were actually taking the path of least resistance. After all staying loyal to an all-powerful being doesn't carry with it much risk.

I actually like your answer quite a lot, I am not agreeing; but, it has some logic behind it. My question can really be seen in a very secular manner if one chose, "How would you defend humankind if we were put on trial as being unworthy", I would end it with of God's love and patience with us; but, you could just end it with worthy or existing or whatever you chose. We can take your answer in an objective way and say that the answer is that we still have some redeemable qualitites.

reply to post by AgnarDaGr8


Dear AgnarDaGr8,

I am not asking about the bible, I am asking about why some angels remained if in fact they did and why they would side with us, why should they care about us.

No plz don't get me wrong. I believe in GOD ... I don't believe in the BIBLE... for it has been manipulated to manipulate peoples spirituality thus manipulating peoples behavior.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear sk0rpi0n,

I could be wrong, but 2/3rd of the angels were loyal to God and carried out His will. Not because they trusted in mankind or had any special love for mankind... My 2 cents.

Certainly a valid answer to the question. I don't necessarily agree; but, lets face it we have very little to go on.

reply to post by ChristianJihad


ChristianJihad,

So why do it here on ATS ? Why don't you take it up on a christian website or go to church and discuss it with your fellow chirchgoers ? Where exactly is the conspiracy in your thread ? It's good to see you aknowledge it's a fairy tale though

Actually I raised it in the Religious Conspiracy thread because we are indeed talking about the fallen angels who conspired against God. It has since been moved to a different section. You also misinterpret me, I did not say it was a fairy tale, I said you were free to treat it as such in your mind if you still wanted to answer the question, you didn't answer it by the way.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


Dear cosmicexplorer,

What amazes me is that 1/3....even though they are "in the know" ....still chose to go the opposite way.

Which comes back a bit to my OP. Based on what you said, either they were not in the know or they had a different outcome that they wanted.

Originally posted by trollz
reply to post by AQuestion

 

If 2/3rds of the angels did not rebel, it doesn't mean they care about us or trust us.
It may simply mean that they appreciate their positions and don't want to be destroyed.
There is punishment for leaving the will of God; most beings don't want to be punished.
Also, you're making some selfish (as a human) assumptions. The rebellion had nothing to do with human beings.

Dear trollz,

Yes I am making an assumption as are you. I explained why I made my assumption and there was nothing selfish about it. If you believe the bible (and no requirement that you do) or at least accept it as the basis of a hypothetical then as someone said earlier, those demons sure do take a keen interest in us, why?

Originally posted by HermitShip
reply to post by AQuestion

 

The Loyal Angels are loyal not because of us, but because of their love for god. They dont trust Humanity, as Jesus said let no man call himself good, as we are all lairs. It is this type of self importance in which God has disdain for. Satan rebelled not over Humanity, but over the rule of God. Very little of anything going on in these matters has to do with Humanity, we are collateral damage.

Dear HermitShip,

You see us as collateral damage, okay, then why were we created? Not the bible, just what you think.

Originally posted by Section31

Originally posted by AQuestion
In the bible it says that 1/3rd of the angels rebelled against God...

Could you provide us with a specific biblical passage, so we can have a context with what you are talking about?

Just need some clarity.

Dear Section31,

Did one third of the angels fall with Lucifer?

Good point and please see the link. Not looking to prove it did happen, really trying to get at a deeper question regarding how would you defend humanity against the charges that Satan might levy against us.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Dear Ophiuchus 13,

YES! Family is family and we all dont always get along nor mature at the same rates. Good questions NAMASTE*******

I like your answer the best. I want you on my side when we have to answer for ourselves. Namaste

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Dear phishyblankwaters,

See, before the advent of satan, and hell, how exactly could you sin? Without the choice to commit evil, are you truly free? How can you be "good" if the only option available to you is to be good, there is no "satan" to follow until he is banished

Firstly, I think your answer is perfectly logical and know that many gnostics would agree with you (I do not say you are a gnostic) merely pointing out that you are not alone in your beliefs. I also would not blame Satan for our choices, I believe in taking responsibility for what we do; however, I also believe our choices can improve as we mature.

Originally posted by Gwampo
reply to post by AQuestion

 

my brother has serious anger and defensiveness issues and sometimes takes them out on our family and I have loved him all the same for the 22 years he has been alive before me.

Dear Gwampo,

That is a nice answer and explained in very human terms. It would be so much better if we could see each other in the same light.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Dear lonewolf19792000,

Man was God's companion, that God created explicitly to walk with him and the angels all knew this and its what infuriated Lucifer and why in his jealousy he chose to have man destroyed. It was God's grace and his love for his companion that he enacted his Great Plan to redeem us.

Very well spoken. I don't believe Lucifer wanted us destroyed nor could he. It says that Enoch walked and talked with God and he was not for God took him up which is certainly in line with what you have said. I do not consider this question in any way critical to believing, it was just something I wondered about, in fact, I am quite surprised in the number of questions and comments that it caused, I expected a couple of people and that was it.

I would say that most people, that bothered actually answering the question rather than debating the bible, would agree with you, that the angels don't really care about us and just love God. It is a possibility; but, what if they actually did care about us. Angels, demons and humans are all still sentient beings. My dog is a sentient being and I care about him even if he makes a mess in the house, I know he doesn't know any better.

Originally posted by stonewall222
reply to post by AQuestion

 

you hit the nail on the head, it all comes down to free will we can choose to go with the 1/3 who rebeled or the 2/3 who stuckwith God. If you could possibly see round the corner you might just change your mind.................. those 1/3 of angels are at this moment locked in chains in a very dark place

Dear stonewall222,

If we accept the hypothesis then we are left with some interesting questions. If the angels that rebelled knew they had no chance of winning and that they would face consequences, then why did they do it anyways? Perhaps they thought they could win, if so, win what, what is the battle over (and it says that we are the ones in a spiritual battle). Why do they fight us and why does Satan accuse us day and night before God and what does he accuse us of? If he accuses us of being unworthy, do you agree with him, are we unworthy or merely underachievers most of the time? We are certainly capable of great kindness; but, we are also capable of doing great harm. Can all of mankind be condemned for the cruelty of some or can all of mankind be saved because of the love and kindness of some? The last option is that we rise or fall individually.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Do you believe in someone else's experience besides your own? There are so many books and movies and tv shows and videos on the subject....its astounding really.

It all depends on the story and evidence provided. I can't just blindly accept such a claim as that. I wouldn't blindly accept someone who said they had a fairy as a friend either....know what I mean? I might want to talk to the fairy, or see the fairy if it is real.

It all depends on the story and evidence provided. I can't just blindly accept such a claim as that. I wouldn't blindly accept someone who said they had a fairy as a friend either....know what I mean? I might want to talk to the fairy, or see the fairy if it is real.

How would the evidence have to be provided?

I too do not accept anything blindly. I look at all the information I have gathered and or observed and I come up with MY OWN theory.

Having a friend tell me they have a fairy and talk with them every day is a little out of the norm. If more and more of my friends conveyed the same then it is then I would investigate any validity to the claim.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

It had nothing to do with us at all. They obeyed God. This wasnt an issue about man being right or wrong, it was about Lucifer being wrong which led them to refusing to be decieved. They sided with God or they would be destroyed with the others. I don't think it even crossed the loyal angels minds to rebel. The most likely case was it was probably the lower level angels that ended up rebeling. I'm of the opinion the other arch-angels would rather die than turn on God, probably the seraph and cherubs as well. There are angels that look almost human, and have no wings, two of these types of angels appeared to Lot before Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.
Man was God's companion, that God created explicitly to walk with him and the angels all knew this and its what infuriated Lucifer and why in his jealousy he chose to have man destroyed. It was God's grace and his love for his companion that he enacted his Great Plan to redeem us.

This seems to be a legend but has nothing to do with the Bible.
Revelation mentions a scene that John saw in visions which were some sort of metaphor about historical events. There was no specified time to when this happened, but using the system used internally, it would be about the Christian churches being swept by false religion into the camp of the destroyer entity, or evil god.
So you have a good God who established the churches through the Apostles, then the evil god saw them as a threat to his rule, and took in a third of Christianity to be ruled by him.
You go on and on with mythology of human origin but I have to wonder about such a religion that uses almost no Bible but a lot of fairy tales to explain things that the Bible does not.
But of course I do not expect you to reply so I am just talking to whoever might read this thread.
I would give this mythology a negative five and a distraction from the real events going on that are never addressed.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel


Dear CynicalDrivel,

Most people are aware of the consistency in scripture of the thought of free will. At the same time, there's certain people obviously not cut from the same cloth. Hitler always comes to mind. That man serves as a warning to everyone on the dangers of superiority complexes, extreme political ideologies, and the dangers of taking away people's rights for religious reasons. I wish he had not happened, but Eugenics would likely have gone mainstream 60 years ago, before we knew how inadequate our understanding still is to this day.

I did not get a chance to read all the posts as I was busy responding to the responses to me and am now going back to see what I missed (got off work about an hour ago). Your comment above caught my attention and shows some good insight. While this is not on topic, I would love to see you start a thread which asked what would the world be like if Hitler had not gone to the extremes he did and stopped just before starting the war. He had a lot of supporters in both England and the United States and was seen as keeping the Russians in check.