Roswell debris tested - - Not from Earth

Originally posted by beauty from pain

It turned out to be an aluminum, silicon, manganese, copper alloy. It is not unknown, but it is used in construction and not usually found in a foil form.

Another important aspect of the material being aluminum and showing unearthly origins is that aluminum must be manufactured.

"either the lab made an analytical error or the material is not from Earth.”

Err.. am I missing something here?

Really?

edit on 13-7-2011 by beauty from pain because: (no reason given)

Yep. Isotope count. Even if the element is known, different planets have different Isotope counts.

However, after reading that article... it seems they don't have sufficient evidence to stake anything other than a claim as of yet. It says the one lab refused to check the isotope count... then said the other lab wasn't as advanced... and couldn't run the same test...

Then they say that they came to the conclusion that the isotope counts were different...

Sending it off to Lab 2 for corroboration. If it's corroborated then what?

I don't see how it can be claimed "sensationalist" maybe "hopeful" but not sensationalist. He very clearly said the results don't mean anything yet... and that he himself was hopeful they didn't make a mistake. Not very sensationalist to me at all.

BTW, Isotope count is critical here... the only known elements with different isotope counts are ones from space...

I.E.

Not from earth. Man made elements not from earth? How did man make it then? This is the claim.

I say wait and see....

I agree. Frank Kimbler's manner, when he helpfully visited this thread recently, reflected very well on him and his work. His understated appraisal of his discovery, and his careful adherence to the scientific method are exactly what is needed here. His visit should have removed any objections to the way he has handled the discovery of the metal fragments, and the aftermath. Ross

*****Aluminum alloys are classed into 1000-number-wide groups. There is a 2000 series, 3000 series, and so on. Each group is based on the most prominent element in the alloy, after aluminum. *****The Roswell metal is said to most closely resemble the Earthly alloy 3004. 3000 series alloys have as their second ingredient, Maganese. I have already noted that there is only about half as much manganese in the Roswell metal, as in alloy 3004, even using the figure at the bottom of the range, for 3004. There is actually a little over twice as much magnesium as there is manganese, making the former the most prominent element (assuming that the silicon is a contaminant from the soil.) *****This should seemingly make the Roswell metal a 5000 series alloy. The problem here appears to be that 5000 series alloys have other elements in them, ones that the Roswell metal does not have. *****This difficulty is assigning the Roswell metal even a general classification group, according to our system of metallurgy is rather intriguing. It at least suggests the possibility that we are trying to understand a very different metallurgy than the one we know, with the inadequate knowledge of that latter, familiar system. Ross

Someone asked how there would have been any metal fragments left for Frank Kimbler to find at the Roswell site. If the UFO crash occurred, the military would presumably have gone through and picked up every findable bit.***** Mr. Kimbler remarked that most of the pieces he found were associated with ant hills and gopher holes. As a geologist, he believes that the fragments could have been brought near the surface from deeper down when the digging action of these creatures disturbed the soil.***** Perhaps the force of the impact, and possible explosion associated with the crash forced these fragments down into such holes in the first place, sixty-some years ago, making them undetectable at the time. If so, they've had a long trip back toward the surface, courtesy of some of nature's humble creatures.***** I can testify, having used one once for recreational metal detecting, that standard military metal detectors (mine detectors, actually) of the 1940's were not particularly efficient in the detection of small, deeply buried bits of metal; that wasn't their intended function, of course.

reply to post by Ross 54


That's an interesting theory. Can't be sure though. Too much time has passed since the Roswell incident. Even if that fragment does turn out to check out as advertised it's been so long that it won't even matter.

Hey all you aluminati go pull the aluminum Teal sheets at www.aluminum.org... The sheets give all the aluminum alloy compositions for every alloy except the secret ones and the ones from other star systems. Then make sure you look at the microprobe averages from the two universities, ; then look at the GDMS values from the other lab. You will notice that the microprobe data shows a 6070 alloy match and the GDMS shows a close match to the 3004 or 3104 alloys. One of the issues at hand is whether or not the high silicon values from the microprobe are from surface contamination. If the alloy is a 6070 then there is an issue because its primary use in the construction of large structures, not found as foil!. If the GDMS values are correct then the alloy is close to 3004 or 3104. Check on what Wibert Smith said to Bob Groves during his interview about the composition of aluminum alloys analyzed from a UFO and I quote " aluminum alloy was similar in composition to cookware". The interesting fact is that cookware is made using a 3004 alloy. Back to square one. The metal needs more work because it is either mister ranchers beer can or its something a little more exotic. Reasoning: alloy composition is off, isotope value analytical error for two of the isotopes is off by the maximum error of .5 %.; that is a little odd; so more testing is needed to see what is up with the values, and the comment that Wilbert Smith made. I love the discussion- good bad and ugly parts.

Roswell ain't over until the fat lady sings. I will keep this ATS thread posted with the latest info on the analysis so you can laugh or celebrate.

Originally posted by Thestargateisreal
reply to post by Ross 54

 

That's an interesting theory. Can't be sure though. Too much time has passed since the Roswell incident. Even if that fragment does turn out to check out as advertised it's been so long that it won't even matter.

I respectfully disagree that it won't matter if the Roswell metal turns out to be extraterrestrial. (Its already been established that it's manufactured.) The passage of 60-some years has, if anything, made people more interested in and accepting of the possibility of extraterrestrial life, not less so. While it wouldn't have the immediate impact of extraterrestrials landing on the White House lawn, there would still be large consequences. Beyond knowing that there is other intelligent life in the universe, and that it has visited Earth ( if that seems insufficient) there would be more. The government/military explanation of the Roswell incident of July, 1947 would very likely be destroyed. Serious questions would begin to be asked throughout society about the reason for the coverup, and about what else was being kept from the public about this incident, and about UFOs in general. I seriously doubt that any part of whatever has been kept from us could be withheld for very long , after that.

This is a personal story and true: you will either believe it or not.

I'm 54 years (next month) old, and have been researching ufos, since I was seven. anyway, I'm a self taught clandestine chemist/musician/artist in wood, who used to be a heavy drug user.
I spent quite some time in prison because of my exploits, IE making methylenedioxylmethamphetamine (MDMA).

I was in prison in "89 and had just watched a show about Roswell. It was Oct, since this was around my Dad's birthday.
I made a call to him because of this, and we talked about stuff and he asked what I was doing. I told him I'd just watched a show about "Roswell" on TV.
He repeated the word, and said He had forgot about something he'd been told about 42 years ago, 15 years before I was born.
At that time he was a "lead man" at an aircraft parts factory outside Indianapolis, which were making stuff for the USAF. The liaison guy, a Col from wright -Patterson AFB would come about once a month, and he and my dad ended up being drinking buddies.
Anyway, my dad wasn't specific about how it came up, but the guy told him that ufos and aliens were real, because he knew about what was being stored at the AFB-the remains from Roswell.
My dad being a hillbilly from TN, didn't give it much thought until the guy called him the next day almost crying,
begging him not to tell anybody what he'd told him, or it'd be his ass.
My dad said okay, and that was that.
He simply forgot about it all those years, until I jogged his memory and he told me.
I was floored!
Who wouldn't be, if they were a casual researcher to hear that from their own dad?
He's been dead since '97, but I still have the birthday card I sent him, where I made a long note regarding how
much his info impacted me.
He was the type of guy that starved when he was young and hunting and getting food were his ken in life,
even when he didn't need to anymore, if anyone knows the type......

reply to post by gaurdian2012


so according to you the members of this site are really cia agents? I ask again where i the proof to this hilarious theory of yours. I suggest you watch you back you know too much, bwahahahahahaha!!

If Frank Kimbler is still reading this thread, there is a question I hope he will answer. The problem has been alluded to in this thread before, but has not been resolved. Why did the lab doing the isotope work on the metal fragments use such unusual values for the natural relative abundance of magnesium 24 and 26? We see that the figures are 78.6% and 11.3%. I have searched and found general agreement on the figures as: 78.99% and 11.01%. The differences are slight, but in this instance are highly significant. If we use the latter values, most of the cited .5% divergences of the isotopes in the Roswell metal vanish. These differences become so small that it would be reasonable to ascribe them to analytical error. Didn't the lab doing the tests have access to the commonly used values? Ross

I would point out that the small differences in values for the natural abundances of magnesium isotopes do not directly affect the much discussed isotope ratios in the Roswell metal. These involve the abundance of one isotope as compared to another, in this specific test. Comparisons of these results to a published norm is a different matter, but still an interesting one, in itself. Ross

Looking at the microscope photograph of the Roswell metal, in the Openminds article linked in the OP, one sees, in addition to the already-mentioned layers, 20 microns (millionths of a meter) thick, something else: The layers are often divided up into separate sections, with the divisions between running vertically. The features are about the same thickness as the horizontal layers. We end up with squares, or perhaps more properly cubes, since this is a three dimensional context, about 20 microns on a side................ I have looked in vain for any micro-photographs of aluminum that have either layering like this, or such divisions into squares, or cubes. I would be very surprised if these didn't turn out to be signs of intricate workmanship. Such fine work seems inconsistent with simple articles like beverage cans or cooking pots................ The purpose of all these fine divisions of the material is not clear. It might make the metal flexible in all possible directions of movement. The dark divisions between the sections might be filled with some material that allows them to move slightly with respect to each other. Ross

Frank Kimbler reported 'micro-holes' punched all the way through some of the thinner metal specimens. I wonder if these could be the same thing as the very small gaps between sections within a single layer I noted in the micro-photo of the thicker (AH1) fragment. Might the foil-like material be layers that somehow came apart, from another, thicker piece of the metal?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Aluminum as such is not found in a raw form, so a sample is going to display some manufacturing properties. Methods such as ion-exchange chromatography will show such properties. If aluminum is not made that way, it begs the question "Where is it from?"

Oh well... then it must be from outer space!

Really...on a supposed UFO crash site, the OP's assertion is not that way out of line.

Sure it is, and it's a disgrace to the notion of UFO research to suggest that a small piece of a (known) version of aluminum, in the desert, decades after the reported crash could be extraterrestrial in origin.

It could be bits from an aluminum cookware set designed for camping, left in the fire too long decades ago.

Even if it were just a little bit of metal left in the fire too long, that doesn't explain why the lab tests came to the conclusion that the isotopic ratios were from out of this world. Literally.

Of course its possible the lab made a mistake, and that this really is just a regular piece of aluminum. But until other labs prove the first wrong I wouldn't say its a disgrace to the notion of UFO research!

You can doubt the lab results. But first wait to see what the other labs say before calling it a disgrace!
If the other labs confirm the initial findings, you won't be able to hide behind aluminum cookware.

You can disagree with the lab(s), but no one else will agree with you.

Originally posted by Thestargateisreal
reply to post by Ross 54

 

That's an interesting theory. Can't be sure though. Too much time has passed since the Roswell incident. Even if that fragment does turn out to check out as advertised it's been so long that it won't even matter.

Are you sure of that?

I'm not questioning just wondering. And I don't know too much about chemistry, but I think it would be included in the article if time would effect the results of these lab tests.

The three isotopes of magnesium found in the Roswell metal are stable, not radioactive. They do not decay over time. The fact that 64 years have passed, since the alleged UFO crash at Roswell will have no effect on these isotope ratios. These ratios appear to odd enough to belong to manufactured metal from outside our solar system. If new tests, which might conceivably be underway by this time, confirm the initial results, I rather suspect that it will matter to a great many people, despite the passage of time. Ross

reply to post by Thestargateisreal


you have got me there
i didnt think of that
maybe they did maybe they didnt
ill go with they didnt

ps sorry for the delay in response

Careful examination of the photograph of the largest specimen of the Roswell metal, labeled AH 1, reveals what appear to be small sections peeled up from the main body of the metal, and folded back against it, rather like 'dog-eared' pages in a book. This supports both the layered interpretation suggested by the micro-photographs, and the supposition that the smaller foil-like fragments might have separated from a larger, thicker piece. How a conventional piece of household aluminum, such as a cooking pot or beverage can could have ended up in a multitude of compressed, parallel layers that tend to adhere to each other is not at all clear. Ross

reply to post by Ross 54


Holy crap.

I am going to give you a flag for the effort to get to the bottom of this. I personally think there is nothing here, but you are dedicated to this to a degree that I have never really seen from a "ufo'er". (that was all honesty, said in a humorous way, not sarcastic)............Checking into every detail....

I read all of you replies and I say, my hats of to you

I just say the hell with it sometimes.

Oh, and sorry I did'nt flag you along time ago.