Roswell debris tested - - Not from Earth

According to some, Roswell (and the Battle of LA incident) did not involve any extraterrestrial anythings... Here's a trailer for the superb new documentary called Roswell and the Rising Sun: www.youtube.com...

I actually bought it (never bought a documentary before) and am sooo glad I did. I have been pimping this film out everywhere I go because it is just so fresh and well-researched. Basic idea: Battle LA and Roswell were actually Japanese dirigible ships engineered to carry a potential bio-weapon and disperse it across the country.

I find this theory more appealing than the ET theory, despite how much I love aliens.
PM me if you are interested in watching the documentary.

This problem was explained earlier today, though the statistic language used may have been less than universally clear. So far as I know, the explanation is correct. As I understand it, the .5 % variation is applied to the results, not to the standard values. The former are, after all, what is being measured. Using this method, and assuming my arithmetic is correct, we get ranges for the results for Mg 24 of 79.495 through 78.704; for Mg 25 we get 10.049 through 10.150, and for Mg 26 - 10.746 through 10.854. These figures show some notable differences from the standard values*, I believe. In that we are dealing in the subatomic, even small variations from the norm can be significant. *Even with Mg 24, with a range that roughly straddles the standard value given, most of the range lies above the standard, so statistically, it is likely the the value is higher than the standard; somewhere in the range 79.0 through 79.495.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by Observer99

 

It's NOT only the margin of error.

It's also the fact that there seems to be no agreed-upon value for the ratios of this isotope that should be found in naturally-occurring Earth-found Magnesium. Sure -- all of these values only vary slightly -- but so did the ratios value of the sample in question.

here are two sources with slightly varied values (which also vary from the values in the OP):

Berkeley Laboratory Isotope Project

Oak Ridge National Laboratory

In the second paragraph of this pdf file, there are two more ratios that vary from the ones I listed and from each other:
Absolute Isotopic Abundance Ratios and Atomic
Weight of Magnesium (Note: links directly to a pdf file)


This article states that the ratio may vary slightly from sample to sample, depending on the terrestrial source of that sample (i.e., where it is from):
ku-dk.academia.edu...

and another article about how the ratios found in natural Mg may slightly vary:
adsabs.harvard.edu...

Here is yet ANOTHER article from the National Standards that says the measured ratios of Mg isotopes may slightly vary:
pubs.rsc.org...


The bottom line is that the aluminum sample in question from the OP's article ACTUALLY IS consistent with some measured values of the isotopic ratios of naturally-occurring Mg, just not the values used by that particular lab (and even that was consistent, within the margin of error).

The fact that the measured isotopic ratio of magnesium is KNOWN to vary enough to be consistent with the sample in question was seemingly ignored by the article in the OP.

edit on 7/14/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Nobody here wants to read this.

It makes sense.

Thank you for taking the time to look that up...Star for you.

The truth is that the metal could stand up and scream "I AM NOT FROM EARTH!!" and the same people would be inventing theories about what movie props company could have made it and how it somehow proves the opposite of what it says. The debunkers in this thread didn't even address the line graph on page 1. Either the graph is fraudulent and you somehow missed it, or it shows something out of the ordinary.

reply to post by tetsuo


This reminds me of that woman who claimed Stalin and Mengele were responsible for Roswell. If your silly little documentary even did half of the research they profess to have done, they'd know that the concept of Japanese balloons delivering explosives and other things was already public knowledge during the time of World War II. There would be no reason for a massive strong-arming coverup with families threatened and all evidence collected and denied to conceal even more Japanese balloons delivering dangerous payloads. Hell, the war had been over for two years by the time of Roswell, so once again, it would be strange to not simply announce it was just more Japanese stuff.

#, the nerve of these reporters who think they can just "solve" Roswell in a matter of a few weeks of poorly done research and make a book/video out of it....

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Aluminum as such is not found in a raw form, so a sample is going to display some manufacturing properties. Methods such as ion-exchange chromatography will show such properties. If aluminum is not made that way, it begs the question "Where is it from?"

Oh well... then it must be from outer space!

Really...on a supposed UFO crash site, the OP's assertion is not that way out of line.

Sure it is, and it's a disgrace to the notion of UFO research to suggest that a small piece of a (known) version of aluminum, in the desert, decades after the reported crash could be extraterrestrial in origin.

It could be bits from an aluminum cookware set designed for camping, left in the fire too long decades ago.

you are absolutely hilarious.
so what you're saying is that UFOs cant be made out of aluminum???
are you now a UFO expert???
maybe UFOS don't really exist???
which is it???

Originally posted by Observer99
The truth is that the metal could stand up and scream "I AM NOT FROM EARTH!!" and the same people would be inventing theories about what movie props company could have made it and how it somehow proves the opposite of what it says. The debunkers in this thread didn't even address the line graph on page 1. Either the graph is fraudulent and you somehow missed it, or it shows something out of the ordinary.

You seem to have missed something. That line graph is not a graph plotting the likelihood of the metal being from an other worldly space craft. It's a graph showing that the Magnesium, a single metal in the alloy, appears to not be of earth origin. It doesn't mean it was manufactured elsewhere. It means the Magnesium in the alloy may or may not be from earth originally. It's also showing the Magnesium as not that far out of the range of known tolerance for Magnesium. I've pointed to the unspectacular nature of the metal itself and the other elements it's comprised of lacking any kind of discrepancy as information pointing away from the idea of it being from an alien craft. If it was manufactured elsewhere than earth by another civilization then why did the composition of the other metals within the alloy not provide anything different than earth metals? Do aliens come to earth because we have really sweet copper? Do they import everything except the Magnesium when constructing space ships? Did we just find the answer to why aliens visit earth? It's the awesome copper mines!

Anyone trying to debunk this isn't trying to "shoot you down" so much as trying to "deny ignorance". If this was current information within a few months the whole thing will be figured out by a real scientist, not some guy with a rock that wanted to find a ufo fragment. If you look for something, and you want to find it bad enough, you'll find it. If you look for truth, you'll likely find something you didn't expect.

reply to post by Ross 54
So this guy found this peice of material with a metal detector.Proberly not.The military would have gone over that same area with metal detectors many times.I do not think they would have missed any peices like that.He may have got it from a location further out from the crash site or either deeper in the earth at the crash site.In any case i never seen the story any news broadcast.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Seems overly sensationalist. A small piece of aluminum, found in the desert, displaying minor attributes which are atypical of normal aluminum, so it must be "not from earth?"

Sure.

I suppose the probability that it's debris from some unknown campsite left behind in the past 40 years is out of the question... right?

It's not necessarily the aluminum that is in question with this piece. This thing is made up of about 6 different types of metals, maybe more. We are human and all of us have "finger prints" if you say. Finger prints that identify us and individualize us. Metals also have the same so called "finger prints". Finger prints that give away it's make up and where it's from. That is why isotope test are done. To see the "finger prints" of the so called metals and to see what they are and where they came from here on earth. Isotope tests were done on this piece of metal found in Roswell by a certified laboratory. They found that some of the other metals in the piece such as Magnesium had very very strange "finger prints". The results they found were something they can say without a doubt is not from this earth based off of the tests done. So there are only two options here, either the laboratory is wrong, or this metal is not from earth.

I've looked in this, and the guy that found it I believe works at the University of New Mexico. He is doing this the right way. He's not just waving this around saying hey look what I have. He's actually taking the proper steps to get this thing looked at. He had this tested at one laboratory and is taking it to another certified place to have it tested there as well. He wants to make sure he takes all the correct scientific steps in order to test this thing and prove it's not from earth. Numerous smaller laboratories and scientists have look at this same metal and found just what the place that tested it found. This is very interesting to say the least, and I'm looking forward in hearing the next laboratories results. Because if two certified good laboratories finish with the same results that is no coincidence as far as I'm concerned.

reply to post by 12thHelix


12thHelix --

I can't speak for SkepticOverlord, but personally I'm not specifically questioning the result of the isotope ratio test conducted by the first lab. The ratios (with the margin of error) that the first lab measured could be correct...

...I'm just questioning the significance of that result, and the jump to make claims based on that result.

Is Mr. Kimbler taking a test result that shows a slight anomaly and putting his own spin on those slightly anomalous results? -- -- a result that may or may not be within the margin of error of the test, and may or may not have been compared against valid values for the "Expected Ratio in Nature"?

I realize he is doing the right thing and having a second test done, but the first test seemed too inconclusive to me to have even made the claims that Mr. Kimbler and the author of this article is asserting.

It just seems to be sensationalism rather than science.

There has been some discussion about whether the magnesium isotope ratios found in the metal shreds under discussion indicate an earthly or an extraterrestrial origin. A rather interesting distinction. These metal bits are obviously manufactured. If they're not from Earth, that means that they come from another civilization in space. If the isotope ratios are confirmed, and they very well could be, this will be a remarkable discovery. If things go smoothly, the results of the new tests could be available within a few weeks. I looked for and found some very carefully done tests of the relative abundances of the magnesium isotopes. Margins of uncertainty were reduced to the point that they do not effect the figures at all, out to at least two decimal points. The values given for magnesium 24 through 26 were as follows: 78.95 %; 10.01%; 11.02 %. Using these figures, and the published .5% margin of measurement error from the lab that did the analysis for Frank Kimbler, produces some interesting results. The magnesium 24 in the sample ranging from 78.95 to 79.01 % barely touches the standard figure, and goes up from there. It is, in all likelihood, more plentiful than expected. The magnesium 25 at 9.99 to 10.01% just touches the standard figure, and extends downward from it. Magnesium 25 is very likely to be less abundant than normal. Magnesium 26, at 10.98 to 11.03 % barely overlaps the standard figure. There seem to be enough anomalies here to suspect an extraterrestrial origin, and justify further testing to confirm or deny that possibility. Ross

reply to post by Ross 54
I don't think it would be accurate to say the Frank Kimbler is merely placing his own spin on some doubtful test results. He showed these results to at least two scientists knowledgeable about isotopes. They both agreed that the results were anomalous, and suggested an extraterrestrial origin. Any doubts about the first round of tests should be resolved if they are confirmed by new ones, which are expected to be made within the next few weeks. Ross

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I understand what you are saying and your Skepticism here. To be completely honest I have not heard this guy make any claims what so ever regarding this piece. I actually listened to the most recent Open Minds Podcast which this guy was on. He never once said we have a piece of a alien craft, simply "what if". He simply states he found a piece of small material that is currently under investigation. He went on to give the results of this test that was done and went on saying we need more test done. He said it took a couple days for the results to get back from this laboratory. Interestingly, he said another lab refused to look at it. And another did look at it, but for some reason took a month to look at it. When he finally kept calling them day in and day out to get the results back they simply said finally, "it's normal".

I'm not necessarily jumping to any conclusions here. It it doesn't turn out to be anything fine. But at least this guys isn't someone who is all about the fame. He is actually wanting to take the correct steps to people can't to back and say, well, you didn't do this so I don't believe it. He said the tests on this thing are not even close to over and he is looking forward to the second labs results. The thing I will say, if this second lab, and maybe a third comes back and says the Magnesium is not from this earth that might be a little strange. After all, aluminum is a manufactured metal. It must be "made" in order to exist. So aluminum with magnesium not from this earth is a little strange. Either way, I'm looking forward to the results. What ever they come out, at least this guy isn't an idiot trying to get fame and glory from an unproven piece of alien craft.

reply to post by 12thHelix


Well, then maybe it's Mr. Rojas, the article's author, who should be a little more conservative in his claims.

I see that I forgetfully failed to include a link in my last post to the source of the reputedly very accurate figures for magnesium isotopes. It is the abstract from a scholarly article on this particular subject, and quite informative. Here is the link: pubs.rsc.org...

We've been hearing some talk that the metallic composition of the Roswell metal fragments is similar to that of an alloy used in construction work. I looked into this. The major constituent of the metal, after aluminum, is silicon, averaging out at about 1.88%, by weight. It is reported that Aluminum-Silicon alloys with a low percentage of silicon are used exclusively as welding filler alloy, in rod form. These are typically very simple alloys of about 95 % aluminum and 5% silicon. Even if we grant the use of a lower percentage of silicon, on the order of 2%, we have to wonder about the unexpectedly low percentage of aluminum, ~ 79%. One wonders about the logic of making a complex mix of alloys for a basic thing like welding rod, so as to displace nearly 20 % of the aluminum, when the standard, simple alloy, AA4043, is so serviceable. This begins to look less and less like domestic metallurgy, and more and more like something truly exotic. Anyone with welding experience, who has some knowledge bearing on this matter is urged to reply. Ross

reply to post by Ross 54


No! That's a lie. If they're not from earth it means the Magnesium itself came from another celestial body. Asteroids have landed on Earth several times throughout it's history. It could be purely coincidence! As someone said it could very well be a piece of cookware and the fact that the Magnesium is other worldly pure coincidence. Assuming the results are truth and not falsified data.

If you wanna talk about lies and silliness then I have some for you. Aluminum alloys are really crappy metals. Any society advanced enough and that had spacecraft with the speed and maneuverability of the alleged flying saucers couldn't use aluminum because it's too brittle. They would likely need a much more advanced alloy. We use aluminum because it's light weight and affordable, but even we have much superior alloys, they're just too expensive or too heavy. An alien spaceship fragment would probably blow our current understanding of metallurgy out of the water.

Originally posted by Ross 54
We've been hearing some talk that the metallic composition of the Roswell metal fragments is similar to that of an alloy used in construction work. I looked into this. The major constituent of the metal, after aluminum, is silicon, averaging out at about 1.88%, by weight. It is reported that Aluminum-Silicon alloys with a low percentage of silicon are used exclusively as welding filler alloy, in rod form. These are typically very simple alloys of about 95 % aluminum and 5% silicon. Even if we grant the use of a lower percentage of silicon, on the order of 2%, we have to wonder about the unexpectedly low percentage of aluminum, ~ 79%. One wonders about the logic of making a complex mix of alloys for a basic thing like welding rod, so as to displace nearly 20 % of the aluminum, when the standard, simple alloy, AA4043, is so serviceable. This begins to look less and less like domestic metallurgy, and more and more like something truly exotic. Anyone with welding experience, who has some knowledge bearing on this matter is urged to reply. Ross

I've welded it but I'm not an expert. Welding aluminum is pretty hard which is why most spacecrafts are riveted. It has a low melting point compared to other metals. Wire filler comes in a variety of alloys depending on the application. To make the weld or any weld the "filler" or wire needs to be layered and stacked. Now that you mention it I think the probability his little piece of metal is a piece of slag is worth entertaining.

These aluminum alloys for welding often contain silicone, magnesium, and even copper. Amazed I missed that, sounds like we have either a hoax or a piece of welding wire. As far as why the alloy is so complex? Silicon and copper help make the wire easier to work with. It adds a degree of cohesion to the aluminum which heats up so quickly that it can be very difficult to manipulate to flow where you want it, without simply falling off of your item you want to weld and onto the ground. So many metals can be present because each one adds a desired property to the alloy for wielding. Some have Si and C to reduce slag (make it easier to work with). Some have metals that make it preferred to use around rust or on carbon steel. I have no idea why magnesium is present but the alloy's composition looks to be that of wielding wire.

After some extended research the alloy has the same composition as a low strength alloy used for wielding carbon steel.

Originally posted by Ross 54
We've been hearing some talk that the metallic composition of the Roswell metal fragments is similar to that of an alloy used in construction work. I looked into this. The major constituent of the metal, after aluminum, is silicon, averaging out at about 1.88%, by weight. It is reported that Aluminum-Silicon alloys with a low percentage of silicon are used exclusively as welding filler alloy, in rod form. These are typically very simple alloys of about 95 % aluminum and 5% silicon. Even if we grant the use of a lower percentage of silicon, on the order of 2%, we have to wonder about the unexpectedly low percentage of aluminum, ~ 79%. One wonders about the logic of making a complex mix of alloys for a basic thing like welding rod, so as to displace nearly 20 % of the aluminum, when the standard, simple alloy, AA4043, is so serviceable. This begins to look less and less like domestic metallurgy, and more and more like something truly exotic. Anyone with welding experience, who has some knowledge bearing on this matter is urged to reply. Ross

You are taking the average. Not the individual sample specimen....If I am looking at the chart correctly, the samples are all over the place in compostion of alloying elements. Does this mean that the fragments are from several different places on whatever the pieces belonged to?.....I mean lets face it. He could have picked up the fraction of aluminum that was welded. Like a fragment of two adjoining pieces(a joint if you would). It is pretty small. It could be any part or piece of anything....

By the way, I did take metallurgy when I took my two year welding course....

There are so many variences of aluminum it is not funny.

The Aluminum Alloy Temper and Designation System - In North America, The Aluminum Association Inc. is responsible for the allocation and registration of aluminum alloys. Currently there are over 400 wrought aluminum and wrought aluminum alloys and over 200 aluminum alloys in the form of castings and ingots registered with the Aluminum Association.

www.alcotec.com/us/en/solutions/Understanding-the-Alloys-of-Aluminum.cfm

That is what is registered, there can be "tweaking" to your specific order.

I think you are trying to find something that just is not there. I see nothing here that says this is extraterrestrial. Like so many have said with logical sound statements....... But it keeps getting brushed aside with pure speculation.....You can keep fishing, but this will be just like the Art Bell thing. Nothing ever came from the samples that he sent to get tested either.

Originally posted by liejunkie01
You are taking the average. Not the individual sample specimen....If I am looking at the chart correctly, the samples are all over the place in compostion of alloying elements. Does this mean that the fragments are from several different places on whatever the pieces belonged to?.....I mean lets face it. He could have picked up the fraction of aluminum that was welded. Like a fragment of two adjoining pieces(a joint if you would). It is pretty small. It could be any part or piece of anything....

I looked around at some of the welding suppliers I had used in the past and managed to find one that listed the composition of each wire. Found products.esabna.com... .filler_metals_cored_wire_carbon_low_alloy_steel_selfshielded_flux_core_coreshield_40_70t4 closely matches our specimen and the high content of aluminum while not dead on, after being diluted could match our mystery metal. Look under the properties tab for the composition, keep in mind this is the undiluted composition. The Phosphorus and Sulfur would most likely be so diluted after welding that it wouldn't be found.