"Orrin Hatch: The 'Poor' Should Do More To Shrink Debt, Not The Rich"

reply to post by bono435


are you sure it's the poor that isn't paying any taxes....

I keep hearing that around 50% aren't paying any taxes....I looked up the median income(midpoint, with half of the earners earning more, half of them earning less), me and my husband are earning less that that, and I assure you, we paid taxes, ABOVE what our employers take out when tax time comes!!

it's not necessarily the poor not paying...
have a kid or two, you get a tax credit...
start a small business centered in your home, and you get a nice deduction.
buy a new car and slap a sign on it advertising your business, and get a deduction.
have a dinner party and invite a few business collegues and chat with them in your office breifly during the dinner, and you have a deduction!!!
make your home more energy efficient, and get a deduction....
get sick and go to the doctor's and get a deduction!!!

well.....
yes the poor have kids and get the credit....
but they don't own homes, and generally don't start businesses.....
they don't buy their companies new cars and deduct the gas mileage from the wives trips to the mall...
they don't usuallly invest in making their apartment more energy efficient..
and well, if they get sick, and do go to the doctor, there's often the medicaid, and charity picking up a good portion of the bill..
more is given back via tax credits and deductions by the gov't than the gov't ends up taking in in revenue...
and in many cases, you need to spend money to take advantage of the deduction.....and the poor don't have the money to spend, so they aren't taking advantage of that deduction!!!

Originally posted by D377MC

Originally posted by NuroSlam
Unless you are the spokesman for those who do vote yet are to stupid to see the forest for the tree's and not for yourself, then you must believe that government is the solution to the problem rather then the very core of it.

Sorry, but you really are having a hard time comprehending simple sentences. I'll summarize this one for you, by paraphrasing:

No, not really, you are speaking for people who do vote and obviously don't see it how you do as they keep electing these people.

'when a US senator receives funds to vote in favor of corporations he is a traitor'

That would depends on what the vote was for really

That does not imply that I vote, neither does it imply I believe government is the solution. Nowhere. Not at all. By no stretch of imagination and no matter what you smoke.

As I said, you are having a conversation all by yourself, where you put words in my mouth so that you can argue back along your favorite lines.

For the record, I have never voted in my life. Ever. Also for the record, I have as much faith in government being the solution to any problem as I do in you actually making sense of what I am saying in plain English.

You can say that you don't support it, but you don't call for its end, merely it to change. "hang a few and watch em change" They will never change. My point being even the exaggeration of your idea to line them up and shoot them turns people off to what you may actually believe and trying to express.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

"Economics in One Lesson" is a really good book. It opened my eyes to the difference between ideals of policy and reality and paved the path for me becoming a libertarian.

Sorta hate to say it, but I have read it to my daughter a few times to put her to sleep! I also see that she must have gotten something from it because she's rather frugal. You know how family members in other states are, send cash to avoid postage etc. Well, she is free to do with that money however she sees fit, and she just sits and saves it, we will goto the store and she will look at things and say "i really don't need that, I have enough dolls". what she will spend it on is practical things for a child, crayons, paper, even books. She looks for the things shes going to need for first grade and buys them a little at a time. She has made the choice that her education is important to her.

Originally posted by NuroSlam

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

"Economics in One Lesson" is a really good book. It opened my eyes to the difference between ideals of policy and reality and paved the path for me becoming a libertarian.

Sorta hate to say it, but I have read it to my daughter a few times to put her to sleep! I also see that she must have gotten something from it because she's rather frugal. You know how family members in other states are, send cash to avoid postage etc. Well, she is free to do with that money however she sees fit, and she just sits and saves it, we will goto the store and she will look at things and say "i really don't need that, I have enough dolls". what she will spend it on is practical things for a child, crayons, paper, even books. She looks for the things shes going to need for first grade and buys them a little at a time. She has made the choice that her education is important to her.

edit on 10-7-2011 by NuroSlam because: (no reason given)

That's good the hear. The world requires more youth that are fiscally responsible. Too many believe that debt doesn't matter, or that it is acceptable to force others into their naive pyramid schemes.

reply to post by NuroSlam


You can't see when you keep your eyes closed. The U.S. government worked fine in the fifties, sixties, and nineties. At the end of WW II the U.S. was the deepest in debt that we have ever been, from the cost of fighting the war. They had high taxes on the rich, paid out the money to rebuild Europe, went on a massive infrastructure rebuilding in the U.S., and paid down the deficit all at the same time, leading to the longest period of economic success our nation has ever enjoyed in its history, all with strong regulations.

Who ever taught you the ridiculous nonsense about the success of free markets is a either a complete moron or a low down dirty liar. Every attempt at free market economics has lead to massive failure, huge deficits and wide spread fraud. The free market is foolish idealism sold to suckers.

Free market politics do not protect consumers or property owners. This is the reality you need to wake up and realize.

The only thing Free market policies protect is the rights of the bankers to lie cheat and steal. Just like in communist systems, the people who control the money control the system. The two ideals are one and the same.

What ever book you read, it was nothing but propaganda. Look at the reality of our economy.

You have been fooled into supporting turning over all the power to the bankers.

We need to do what we did in the fifties, tax the super rich out the wazoo, and go on a massive infrastructure rebuilding plan.

Forget foolish idealism, and stick with what works.

Hatch is a wannabe aristocrat. He would rather bow to a king, and has no respect for liberty.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

We need to do what we did in the fifties, tax the super rich out the wazoo, and go on a massive infrastructure rebuilding plan.

Forget foolish idealism, and stick with what works.

Hatch is a wannabe aristocrat. He would rather bow to a king, and has no respect for liberty.

This is exactly what has led us to the largest entitlement system in the world, it will not be much longer till we make the wiermark republic like like grade school. Please tell me one example of a "free market"

reply to post by NuroSlam

This is exactly what has led us to the largest entitlement system in the world,

If you are referring to corporate welfare, which is what all the politicians preaching free market economics support at every opportunity, as in pork barrel spending, all on borrowed money, of course, then you are completely right.

If you are talking about welfare recipients, it is a tiny percentage of the budget. Nixon created the welfare mess, setting up crime ridden ghettos in the seventies with the assistance of the banks. Take the time to read some history, you will find this is the truth.

it will not be much longer till we make the wiermark republic like like grade school.

It is the free market pols who have consistently increased national debt to near historical levels.

Please tell me one example of a "free market"

Can't, there is no such thing. As I pointed out, it is an unrealistic ideology. Might was well ask for an example of Never Never Land. Oh yeah, at least then you can point to Disney.

reply to post by poet1b

Your absolute ignorance on the subjects of history and of economics theories oozes from you like an infested wound. Even the most ardent supporter of Keynesian economics wouldn't attempt to present the "arguments" that you have.
First you say that all attempts at free market economics has failed but you can't actually give an example of a free market. Second you tell me to read some history, assuming that I'm some idiot off the street. Let me give you a bit of history then scholar, there was a man named Lysander Spooner, who prior to the civil war understood the concepts of what today is called Austrian economics, that is, since you obviously don't have a clue as to what you are talking about requires for one a sound monetary system and two freedom from government intervention. Ideas that men like Fredric Bastiat wrote about. Mr Spooner decided to implement a free market solution to a government program. He succeeded in this until the government shut him down. Now my dear history professor do you even have a clue what that was? Yea, didn't think so.

To be honest, I must correct myself it was Hazlitt who wrote Economics in one lesson. Yes, I can admit my mistakes and own up to them

reply to post by poet1b


You're completely brainwashed. If you never read the book, how would you know "it's propaganda"? The arguments given are rock-solid, and only one who is not intellectually honest can argue the reasoning. Economics has been reduced to mere statistics, but that doesn't mean how they practice it now is correct. It's Keynesianism that lead to this catastrophe, and Keynesianism that will lead to the crash of the world economy.

reply to post by NuroSlam


I can't give an example of a free market economy, because no such critter exist, nor has such a critter ever existed.

Yours is he exact same argument communists claim about communism.

If you had a clue as to what you are talking about, you would know that a market free of government interference is in fact Marx's communist ideal. You are embracing communism, and you don't even recognize it.

How foolish is that?

reply to post by 547000


So in essence, then that would make Reagan, both Bush presidents and most of the people who worked in their admins, along with Newt and his fellow repubs in congress, all Keynesian economists.

In some ways, yes, this is true.

Poet1b, its no use to argue with these people. They have no capability to learn.....they are just regurgitators, puking out whatever crap they heard from their their favorite brainwasher.

You guys want the "free market"? Go back to the early 1900s - the generation of "robber barons" (you have heard about those guys, right?) that worked in the free market....in fact, they so successfully manipulated the free market, that we made laws so they could never do it again.

People like you want kids working in factories for 16 hours with no shoes on, and no lunch breaks, forced 75 hour weeks, and the other horrors that brave Americans fought and sometimes died for. You fools have been brainwashed into believing some fairy tale that never existed, so that you will argue to give corporations and banks more power to pay less taxes. At this point, there is no other word for people like you besides ignorant and incapable of learning.

As poet1b said, in our most successful time, we were taxing the super rich at 90%. Now, at arguably our worst time, the richest among us usually pay no taxes at all.....how can you ignore those facts and blame it on "entitlement programs"? on 9/10/01, Rumsfeld said we were "missing" 3.2 trillion dollars. I can hear your reply "The entitlement programs must have lost that money!". Well, no. It was the Pentagon. You should be far more angry at how much we have spent on war, but they have you scared and brainwashed about that too. You people are ******* morons.

All of these “free market” fanatics can't point to one real world system of government in the world that has this mythical wonderful free market paradise they talk about.
They might as well go along with Dorothy and seek out the Wizard of OZ.


Folks here are right in pointing out the only “ free market” that ever existed was when the robber barons directly ran the commerce of this country and we had no rights and worked 16 hours a day.

All countries in the world understand that they have to guide their economies and protect to a degree the internal trade policy of their country.

Now India, China, and the Brazilian economies are thriving because they have protectionism in place to protect their labor market, something the US has abandoned.

The US abandoned this after the 80’s and ever since our economy has been gutted by outsourcing. And that is why the unemployment won't go down; THE JOBS ARENT THERE ANYMORE! www.infowars.com...

www.economyincrisis.org...

Originally posted by bono435
I'm sick of everyone yelling "Tax the rich..Tax the rich!!! They need to help close our debt deficit!"

WRONG!!!!

While the middle and upper class is being taxed to the max...part of the reason we are in a DEFICIT is because well..is it not obvious? the poor do not even pay their taxes!!! LEAVE THE HARD WORKING MIDDLE AND UPPER CLASS ALONE!!!

edit on 10-7-2011 by bono435 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-7-2011 by bono435 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-7-2011 by bono435 because: (no reason given)

Where is my multibillion dollar refund like hard working GE got? Oh, right. I actually paid my fair share in taxes because I am too poor to get around that. What do you people get in return for repeating this utter BS?

The Free Market concept is the scourge of our times, convincing people to support the rights of the super rich over their own rights, and the rights of their families, and their children, and the future of their children.

It is sad that so many people can be so easily brainwashed.

The poor in general can barely take care of themselves, how are they supposed to pay back debts, where the money loaned primarily went to the super rich.

Talk about twisted logic.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
You guys want the "free market"? Go back to the early 1900s - the generation of "robber barons" (you have heard about those guys, right?) that worked in the free market....in fact, they so successfully manipulated the free market, that we made laws so they could never do it again.

So i'm going to assume that you are speaking of people like Leland Stanford, former gov of california who used his connections to get a anti-competition law passed for his Central Pacific railroad, or perhaps the Union Pacific which along with CPR received huge land grants and per mile subsidies from the Federal Government?

People like you want kids working in factories for 16 hours with no shoes on, and no lunch breaks, forced 75 hour weeks, and the other horrors that brave Americans fought and sometimes died for. You fools have been brainwashed into believing some fairy tale that never existed, so that you will argue to give corporations and banks more power to pay less taxes. At this point, there is no other word for people like you besides ignorant and incapable of learning.

How exactly do you know what "these" people want? I can point to free markets at work every weekend, all get along quit nicely without government intervention, subsidies or grants.

As poet1b said, in our most successful time, we were taxing the super rich at 90%. Now, at arguably our worst time, the richest among us usually pay no taxes at all.....how can you ignore those facts and blame it on "entitlement programs"? on 9/10/01, Rumsfeld said we were "missing" 3.2 trillion dollars. I can hear your reply "The entitlement programs must have lost that money!". Well, no. It was the Pentagon. You should be far more angry at how much we have spent on war, but they have you scared and brainwashed about that too. You people are ******* morons.

Really stop misleading people by obfuscating the facts of history.
I think I make it perfectly clear that Government itself is one huge polluting entitlement program. And since you cant seem to have a reasonable conversation without name calling im done

Originally posted by poet1b

The Free Market concept is the scourge of our times, convincing people to support the rights of the super rich over their own rights, and the rights of their families, and their children, and the future of their children.

It is sad that so many people can be so easily brainwashed.

The poor in general can barely take care of themselves, how are they supposed to pay back debts, where the money loaned primarily went to the super rich.

Talk about twisted logic.

I support the right to do business with who I want and work were I want, all of these issue you bring up are the result of the government intervention, subsidies and monopolies.

Why wont you address Spooner? Is it because you don't know who he is? Do not know what he did? I have presented facts and all you seem to do is attempt to berate and show aggression because you can't seem to actually debate the issue.

reply to post by NuroSlam


You never address the reality of the issues these people are brining up about how the government had to intervene and stop child labor, corporate racism, forced overtime, no vacations, no days off , horrible work conditions, and much more that unionism brought about and at one point the government enforced.

These capitalist you love so much would have never done those things on their own.

Now your children can go to work in this country and enjoy the fact that they wont be working under in-human conditions

If you want to live under a system without the kind of government intervention that you hate so much then move to China or Mexico and have your children work 16 hours a day

reply to post by NuroSlam


Please do point to these free market systems working so well. I have yet to see someone on your side backing up that claim.

You have presented nothing to back up your claims, just opinions based foolishly on nothing but propaganda nonsense, without any basis in reality at all.