"Orrin Hatch: The 'Poor' Should Do More To Shrink Debt, Not The Rich"

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

You never address the reality of the issues these people are brining up about how the government had to intervene and stop child labor, corporate racism, forced overtime, no vacations, no days off , horrible work conditions, and much more that unionism brought about and at one point the government enforced.

These capitalist you love so much would have never done those things on their own.

Now your children can go to work in this country and enjoy the fact that they wont be working under in-human conditions

If you want to live under a system without the kind of government intervention that you hate so much then move to China or Mexico and have your children work 16 hours a day

Child labor was not stopped, hate to tell you that but children still work today on family farms. So I would assume you want to send the federal agents in to bust up the Amish. Corporate racism, a business should have the right to decide who its customer based should be, if it wants to deign itself the profits from serving everyone, that leaves room for a company more willing to accept everyone to grow and thrive. It was government endorsed racism that was the problem. Again hate to tell you this, but forced overtime, no vacations and no time off are pretty common. All you seem to do is advocate for the removal of choice and competition.

reply to post by NuroSlam


As long as you aren't engaging in criminal enterprise, in the U.S. you can engage in business with who or where you want, why would you think differently? You are just spouting off nonsense.

If you bothered to pay attention, you would find that corporations are far more likely to interfere in your business than government these days. That is what your free market principles have created.

Who cares about Spooner, he is an obscure character, who you have yet to demonstrate has anything to do with the subject matter at hand.

reply to post by NuroSlam


The Amish practice child labor because their kids do chores? What a bunch of wacko nonsense.

Well, sinse free market principles have been forced on us, yes, businesses are once again abusing employees at every opportunity, especially illegal immigrants, which is why your free market pols opened the flood gate to illegals, and essentially stopped enforcing labor laws.

I guess you think it is sweet for some 12 year old girl to work in a noxious dark room making tennis shoes 60 plus hours a week. After all, those Amish kids have to work.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

Please do point to these free market systems working so well. I have yet to see someone on your side backing up that claim.

You have presented nothing to back up your claims, just opinions based foolishly on nothing but propaganda nonsense, without any basis in reality at all.

Ok, one more time
-Example flea markets
-Example yard sales
-Example Lysander Spooner and the private mail service he started that came close to putting the USPS out of service till the Federal Government stepped in to remove the cometition.
-Example James J Hill who built his own transcontinental railroad, the Great Northern Railroad without government aide, purchasing all land needed privately and publicly with cash.
-Example Hong Kong until recently was a near complete free market.

Yet as state intervention grew elsewhere, especially after the second world war, Hong Kong remained free of controls on prices, wages and imports, of regulation of business and employment and, in Friedman’s words, of officials’ instinct “to spend other people’s money and meddle in other people’s affairs”. As The Economist put it in 1977: “A businessman setting up shop in Hong Kong finds low taxes, no foolish government interferences…a government leaning over to encourage him to make as much money as he can. He finds, blessed discovery, no politics.”

www.economist.com...

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

The Amish practice child labor because their kids do chores? What a bunch of wacko nonsense.

Do they not sell the goods grown on the farms and make a profit from the labor of the child?

Well, sinse free market principles have been forced on us, yes, businesses are once again abusing employees at every opportunity, especially illegal immigrants, which is why your free market pols opened the flood gate to illegals, and essentially stopped enforcing labor laws.

Could you please name these free market politicians I only know of two, with one running for the senate. And they are not my politicians since I do not consent to being governed nor do I vote for criminals

I guess you think it is sweet for some 12 year old girl to work in a noxious dark room making tennis shoes 60 plus hours a week. After all, those Amish kids have to work.

Stop buying the shoes.
Since American children have no respect for earning a living it, are worthless, lazy and a detriment to businesses that hire then while in or out of high school, it appears perhaps child labor is once again needed to instil some virtue and desire to achieve success. I know its a horrible idea to actually work for a living when big brother will give you all you need.

reply to post by NuroSlam


Sorry, flea markets are regulated, and even garage sales, in relation to their share of the market.

As far as your other two historical claims, they are greatly over exaggerated.

Hong Kong is communist, all you are demonstrating is what I have been pointing out all along, the free market system is just another form of communism. Congrats on proving my point.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

Sorry, flea markets are regulated, and even garage sales, in relation to their share of the market.

As far as your other two historical claims, they are greatly over exaggerated.

Hong Kong is communist, all you are demonstrating is what I have been pointing out all along, the free market system is just another form of communism. Congrats on proving my point.

Ok, you are right and I am wrong. We need more communism/socialism in america

reply to post by NuroSlam

Since American children have no respect for earning a living it, are worthless, lazy and a detriment to businesses that hire then while in or out of high school, it appears perhaps child labor is once again needed to instil some virtue and desire to achieve success. I know its a horrible idea to actually work for a living when big brother will give you all you need.

Ah, your true colors show, you actually support child labor.

The U.S. is the most productive labor force on the planet. If anything, today's kids are more responsible than those boomer slackers who have turned the great economy they inherited into a huge failure. Today's kids are not lazy, maybe your kids, but not the ones I know.

You really don't understand the concepts of liberty, nor freedom, nor opportunity. By your posts it seems that you are intellectually bankrupt.

reply to post by NuroSlam


Yepper, you are.

Maybe one day you will realize where you were lead astray.

reply to post by poet1b

Do you feel better knowing youre master of the universe?

reply to post by NuroSlam




I would feel a lot better when people wake up to the con of the whole free market scam.

While the idealism is fine, the results never get there, and what you wind up with is a system like communism, or aristocracy.

For a well functioning market system, you need and evenly enforced, fair set of rules to enable competition, and efficiency, just like the pro sports leagues.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

I would feel a lot better when people wake up to the con of the whole free market scam.

While the idealism is fine, the results never get there, and what you wind up with is a system like communism, or aristocracy.

For a well functioning market system, you need and evenly enforced, fair set of rules to enable competition, and efficiency, just like the pro sports leagues.

I never said a free market was unregulated, I said it was free of Government intervention. When you purchase an electronic piece of equipment, do you notice the UL tag? That is not a government agency, it is a private testing facility thats reputation is based upon ensuring the consumer is getting a safe piece of equipment, it is not required however to get one, just stupid not to.

UL is a global independent safety science company offering expertise across five key strategic businesses: Product Safety, Environment, Life & Health, University and Verification Services. Our breadth, established objectivity and proven history mean we are a symbol of trust and enable us to help provide peace of mind to all.

a "communist" solution to a problem

free market would require the big fish to inherit the risk that is related to their actions.....
bad actions produce failure. too risky means the doors are shut for good.
price your product high while paying your employees crap leads to failure.....

we haven't had a free market in a long time!! I find it humorous that so many would spend so much time trying to preserve something that has never existed!!!

reply to post by NuroSlam


What government intervention are you talking about?

Most of the market interventions I see taking place are being done by corporations, not government.

Who hasn't heard of UL? What is your point? Seems to me that UL is an example of how government does not interfere.

Originally posted by NuroSlam
Child labor was not stopped, hate to tell you that but children still work today on family farms. So I would assume you want to send the federal agents in to bust up the Amish.

What happens when a group of people like that Amish are given a free blind spot in which to treat children like property?
Rape Rampant in Amish Community

It seems like a bad thing when children or employees are treated like property. Bad things happen. The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire Trial

Capitalism, like anything good, is only fun to a point. Pure capitalism allows monopolies which is the end of competition and the antithesis of the free market. Some things just cannot be allowed to roam freely because of the damage they do their own cause.

Originally posted by NuroSlam

So i'm going to assume that you are speaking of people like Leland Stanford, former gov of california who used his connections to get a anti-competition law passed for his Central Pacific railroad, or perhaps the Union Pacific which along with CPR received huge land grants and per mile subsidies from the Federal Government?

What is your point? That corporations pay off government officials to get favorable legislation? No #!
We need to stop the corruption in business and government, not say "There is corruption, so therefore all government regulations are corrupt". See how you are making a fallacious leap in logic?

Here, let me construct an exercise your simple mind might be able to comprehend.

Corporations and rich people have all the money. All media is owned by people with money. The media seems to be trying to brainwash us into giving more rights and more money to the people that already have all the money. Are you getting this yet? Why would the media be trying to direct our opinion on government regulations at all, and seem to be adopting a position that would set us back 100 years. Who would this benefit, the super rich, or the common man?

Why would the media want to set labor relations back 100 years? BECAUSE THEY ARE PAID BY THE RICH TO SAY THAT. Come on, what do I have to do, put on a puppet show for you?

Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by NuroSlam
Child labor was not stopped, hate to tell you that but children still work today on family farms. So I would assume you want to send the federal agents in to bust up the Amish.

What happens when a group of people like that Amish are given a free blind spot in which to treat children like property?
Rape Rampant in Amish Community

It seems like a bad thing when children or employees are treated like property. Bad things happen. The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire Trial

Capitalism, like anything good, is only fun to a point. Pure capitalism allows monopolies which is the end of competition and the antithesis of the free market. Some things just cannot be allowed to roam freely because of the damage they do their own cause.

edit on 12-7-2011 by Kitilani because: (no reason given)

These people who argue against you obviously dont know # about history....im sure most of them never even heard of the triangle fire.

Originally posted by NuroSlam
I never said a free market was unregulated, I said it was free of Government intervention. When you purchase an electronic piece of equipment, do you notice the UL tag? That is not a government agency, it is a private testing facility thats reputation is based upon ensuring the consumer is getting a safe piece of equipment, it is not required however to get one, just stupid not to.

UL is a global independent safety science company offering expertise across five key strategic businesses: Product Safety, Environment, Life & Health, University and Verification Services. Our breadth, established objectivity and proven history mean we are a symbol of trust and enable us to help provide peace of mind to all.

a "communist" solution to a problem

edit on 11-7-2011 by NuroSlam because: (no reason given)

All the "free marketeers" always say "Well, if a corporation was doing bad, evil things, the people would just not buy their product, and they will go out of business! Problem solved!" In your example, if UL did a bad job testing, they would just go out of business. Well, I can disprove that idiotic theory in three words:

Wal-Mart and McDonalds. These two corporations make us fat, send our money to china, underpay their workers and illegally force them to work overtime without pay. By your example, these two corporations should just about be ready to bust, eh? All that raping of the american consumer will not be tolerated, im sure people will refuse to shop there ever again! But I just drove by my local wallyworld, and the lot is full.....can your theories and propaganda explain this?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by NuroSlam

 

Yeah, representative government is the solution, and always has been. The people who have convinced you that government can not work are lying to you. Undermining government is how the third world nations remain third world

Protecting individual liberty includes protecting people from white collar crime.

EDIT to ADD: The belief that government can not do its job of establishing order, regulating interstate commerce and looking after the general welfare of the people as written in the U.S. Constitution, is pure communism.

The whole free market concept, PURE COMMUNISM.

edit on 9-7-2011 by poet1b because: see above

What the hell? Brush up on your Communism then.

What you are describing is pure Neo-Liberalism.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of communism either.
By what you stated I think we are on the same centrist line of thought.
Of course, if i had it my way, the constitution AND all legislation
would be trashed to rewrite something more concrete that gives
people independence and ability to support themselves regardless
if government goes corrupt or not. With lines such as:
"When government does this, or that, it's a declaration of war against the common man
and a call to armed revolution"
I doubt there would be room to, ehum, reinterpret that to suit any kind
of consolidation of power from either corporations or government.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

I’m not sure where the hate for those who done well with their lives has come from, and I read a lot of it here on ATS too. But I need to ask what is a bigger drain on our system, the family who makes 200k a year, or the family that been on welfare for generations?

If the Government allowed for independence off the grid, living off the land in
segregated communities, and helped fund the beginning of these primitive cities,
we wouldn't have people living off welfare. You give them tools to support themselves,
if they're too dumb to farm their food on their own
after being given the tools then they deserve what comes to them.

Good governance relies on meeting everyone's needs, not just a select group in society.
Give man the ability to fish, don't give him the fish. Equal opportunity and choice
is very important in any Post-Modern nation.

It seems that everyone makes life choices and the ones who make bad life choices want to blame their woes and troubles on the ones that happen to make good life choices.

You seem to believe that everyone has the same lifestyle, might I remind you
that we live in a class society. The rich have more opportunity than the poor.

This is from page one and I find it striking…

I guess I need to shoulder my tax burden and yours a long with your four kids. The beemer guy has done nothing to you and most likely has even created jobs. Tax the rich more and they will just down size with the loss of jobs… that THEY created in the first place. Not hard to understand where jobs come from. The true “evil rich” is about .01% of the rich population with the other 99.9% providing jobs and paying the vast majority of income taxes already.

In total agreement here.

If we do need to tax the poor more to break even than maybe that is a good indicator we are spending too much and instead of taxing ANYONE more just lower our spending. If let’s say we taxed the rich another 50% more and that doesn’t work (which it wouldn’t) what do we do then? The middle class and poor is all that is left, so maybe the answer is not in “the evil rich” as much as in" the evil large foot print Fed Government" that needs to be downsized.

Downsizing certain sectors in government while nationalizing the Energy sector
and natural resources would in fact give enough revenue for government to pay
for things like free education for all, along with a public sector in health-care for
the less fortunate while still keeping the private sector to operate freely.
The money could also be used for R&D in alternative energy sources.

But then that would kind of piss off the Socialist and those who go through life living on Government life support….

The people just want equal opportunity to succeed, not your wallet.
Communists and Neo-Liberals want your wallet.
Possibly self proclaimed Socialists, but only because
they're under educated masses of disheartened individuals who
are steered by Liberalism and Neo-Liberalism, so they're not even conscious
of what they're doing, can you blame a skunk for being a stinker?
Another thing to keep in mind is that two types of people live off welfare,
people with mental/physical handicaps and/or people who gave up on life
and are comfortable with the bare minimum.