God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

The prince of this world is Satan. My comments are directed on behalf of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Ephesians 2:2 (ESV)
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

2 Corinthians 4:4

4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You know there are rules of civility on this forum so I can not say all that I feel towards you but the word, "Madd" comes to mind. I would say you follow the god of my enemy.
You are exactly what I am aiming at with my little metaphors.
There you go with the exact sort of language, my god is better than your god.
So one country goes up in a radioactive cloud. Oh, well, wrong god. Tisk tisk.
I side with Job when he says, you may be the god of this world, and you may be able to make me suffer or kill me but you yourself will face a higher judge and I will be vindicated.
You, serve the god of this world.

You do know the bible cautions you not to argue with atheists right?

reply to post by SuperiorEd

The prince of this world is Satan.

And . . ?
A convenient name to apply to the other person's god, which you do, exactly, as you continue on in your post.
Now if I was those people you were deriding, to me, your god would be Satan.
Do you get that?
How is your god doing? I think there is a problem here. The world is not looking very good to me. To you, it may be fine. There is my problem with you. Like a democrat who thinks everything is great because there is a democratic administration, even tough everything is exactly as it was when the republican administration was in power. At some point you have to say, the democrats and the republicans are messed up and let's vote for someone else. You say it right in your post, I mean the god of. . . The exact same god who was in power before. And you are ok with that? I'm not. I protest. Can we ask a higher authority to give us a new god, since the one we have is killing us and destroying the planet? You are happy with the one you have. You give some little token nod to say there is a new administration but in practical terms, you still follow the old god. You say, oh its those bad people who follow the old god, not us, because we are good. Well look at it from their perspective. They live good lives and work hard and care for their families, while you desire their goods and send navies and armies to take it from them. You are the bad people that they see following the god of this world. You do not see it because you are under a delusion.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT THEN HE KNOWS EVERYTHING..AS IN THE ALPHA AND OMEGA SCRIPTURE. HE THEREFORE KNEW WHAT SATAN WOULD BE BEFORE HE CREATED HIM, THUS GOD IS AN ADVOCATE OF CHAOS OR HE IS EVIL.

How could God display His love without hate to contrast Himself against? How could God display His goodness without evil to contrast Himself with? How could God display His greatest passion, (redemption), without condemnation that was real?

If you were the only person on Earth and had the capability of creating billions of robots who all were made to love you you'd be really sick of them in a short period of time. In order to have beings that loved you because they chose to and not because they were made to. You run the risk that some of your creation would not choose to love you in return.

this is something you wouldn't do even as a human with limited knowledge and the lack of the ability to see in the future, I'd assume if we as humans wouldn't want people who were forced to love us then God wouldn't either. That's the catch-22 with creating beings that had the free will to love you, some would exercise that free will to spit in your face.

Originally posted by RightInTwo
You do know the bible cautions you not to argue with atheists right?

Chapter and verse por favor?

seeing how satan and his gang turned out i would have to come to the conclusion that god is a rather bad parent.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by CaDreamer
IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT THEN HE KNOWS EVERYTHING..AS IN THE ALPHA AND OMEGA SCRIPTURE. HE THEREFORE KNEW WHAT SATAN WOULD BE BEFORE HE CREATED HIM, THUS GOD IS AN ADVOCATE OF CHAOS OR HE IS EVIL.

How could God display His love without hate to contrast Himself against? How could God display His goodness without evil to contrast Himself with? How could God display His greatest passion, (redemption), without condemnation that was real?

If you were the only person on Earth and had the capability of creating billions of robots who all were made to love you you'd be really sick of them in a short period of time. In order to have beings that loved you because they chose to and not because they were made to. You run the risk that some of your creation would not choose to love you in return.

this is something you wouldn't do even as a human with limited knowledge and the lack of the ability to see in the future, I'd assume if we as humans wouldn't want people who were forced to love us then God wouldn't either. That's the catch-22 with creating beings that had the free will to love you, some would exercise that free will to spit in your face.

so you say that god created evil so we would know he is good? that is the most uneducated and backwards thought out example i have seen yet on ats...and that includes the chemtrail threads

"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him to the elders of his city at the gatesway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of the city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard (oops that just kinda' appeared out of nowhere).' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Isreal shall hear of it and fear." (Parenthesis and underlining added). Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

yup great god...disobedient kid? just kill em and start over...sounds rather loving and zen and stuff

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by CaDreamer
IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT THEN HE KNOWS EVERYTHING..AS IN THE ALPHA AND OMEGA SCRIPTURE. HE THEREFORE KNEW WHAT SATAN WOULD BE BEFORE HE CREATED HIM, THUS GOD IS AN ADVOCATE OF CHAOS OR HE IS EVIL.

How could God display His love without hate to contrast Himself against? How could God display His goodness without evil to contrast Himself with? How could God display His greatest passion, (redemption), without condemnation that was real?

If you were the only person on Earth and had the capability of creating billions of robots who all were made to love you you'd be really sick of them in a short period of time. In order to have beings that loved you because they chose to and not because they were made to. You run the risk that some of your creation would not choose to love you in return.

this is something you wouldn't do even as a human with limited knowledge and the lack of the ability to see in the future, I'd assume if we as humans wouldn't want people who were forced to love us then God wouldn't either. That's the catch-22 with creating beings that had the free will to love you, some would exercise that free will to spit in your face.

sooo funny that the "prize you all get is the thing you think would be tantamount to torture...bored to death..

if you think a world full of bible thumpers would be any better you haven't studied your history...or the first half of your lovely book of fairy tales

Hmmm... You issue a "Challenge to Atheists" and then tell us that your argument is based on the premise that god exists??? Really??? I'm sorry but this is dumb. Christians continually claim that their religion is under constant attack by atheists, but the fact of the matter is that arrogant Christians need to stop making these types of "challenges". I don't care if you believe in god, allah, flying spaghetti monster, whatever. Just stop trying to change people's beliefs. It's rude.

Originally posted by Cantmakedisup
Hmmm... You issue a "Challenge to Atheists" and then tell us that your argument is based on the premise that god exists??? Really??? I'm sorry but this is dumb. Christians continually claim that their religion is under constant attack by atheists, but the fact of the matter is that arrogant Christians need to stop making these types of "challenges". I don't care if you believe in god, allah, flying spaghetti monster, whatever. Just stop trying to change people's beliefs. It's rude.

Look, it's simple to accept something for the sake of argument. That's all the OP asked.

Don't worry, you don't need to get baptized now.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Cantmakedisup
Hmmm... You issue a "Challenge to Atheists" and then tell us that your argument is based on the premise that god exists??? Really??? I'm sorry but this is dumb. Christians continually claim that their religion is under constant attack by atheists, but the fact of the matter is that arrogant Christians need to stop making these types of "challenges". I don't care if you believe in god, allah, flying spaghetti monster, whatever. Just stop trying to change people's beliefs. It's rude.

Look, it's simple to accept something for the sake of argument. That's all the OP asked.

Don't worry, you don't need to get baptized now.

edit on 3-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

And it's just as simple to NOT accept something for the sake of argument.

The proper way to be 'neutral', would be to try BOTH pro- and contra-assumptions and see what 'answers' that would lead to in each case.

And in any case the author piles assumptions on top of assumptions on top of assumptions through his posts.
No argument would need any rational or logic reasoning this way. Every tight spot can be filled with a new assumption.

Similar to when theism in general fill rational/logical gaps with 'magic' (=unsupported metaphysical claims).

as it is impossible to proof the existence of your god
it's even more impossible to proof that your imaginary friend has qualities to attribute to

this, of course, doesn't imply any statement on my behalf on the value of your personal experiences... if we could restrict the god-thing to this personal realm, i have no issue whatsoever... we're all entitled to our delusions.
for me the issue starts when that god is used/abused to allow certain people to impose their beliefs on the public functioning of others.

No person can possibly understand God. Its beyond human comprehension, it is a mystery- the meaning of life, the beginning and end, etc.... Your Bible is not the word of God, its just a morality pamphlet for a world long dead. The best you can get from it is a couple stories telling you to love and treat everyone with kindness and respect. Its awful we live in a world where people don't do that, even those Christians "spreading the good news". To take these words literally would never be a wise thing to do. All you need is love, you can chuck the specifics into the garbage- all that "God hate" crap drives people insane and turns man against man. We will never prosper with so many stupid dogmas and religions hindering spiritual growth.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts
God is both good and bad, and a jealous god to boot and also a contradictory god, giving us freewill but then saying-

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. 5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. 6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

-If we behaved thus would we be not labelled bad, i rest my case. Point proven.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["The answer is as true for us as it is for God. Love is the right thing to do. We survive by choosing what is best for our future sons and daughters. We protect and provide. We nurture and defend. This is love."]

That can be done better without having any 'gods' involved.

Quote: ["Assuming that I do not need to prove the existence of God, as we have assumed He exists for the sake of this thread, I can give you the following perspective, apart from ancient documents:"]

No...YOU have assumed...not WE.

Quote: ["I'll need you to reflect on a few rhetorical questions."]

Why don't you try logic and rational reasoning instead of rhetoric?

Quote: ["Do you make the cones and rods in your eyes activate to see? Do you cause the chemical and biological process in your gut work to digest food? Do you make your hair grow? Do you choose the speed at which it grows? Do you make the heavenly bodies transit the galaxy in synchronized movement? Do you do the calculations necessary to produce athletic movement on the basketball court? Do you cool and heat the body by your circularity system?

The answer to these and many more are no. You have little to do with any of these functions of a well designed bio-mechanical suit. The 'YOU' I refer to is not the body that you use to sense the world. You do not make the world work so that you can sense it. As a matter of fact, you have nothing to do with anything that your intellect (Nous) participates in.

The question then becomes obvious. Who does this for me?"]

The 'god of the knowledge gaps' postulate. It's meaningless non-sense.


Quote: ["In quantum physics, the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability. Light is both a particle and wave. The observer that is housed in your body creates the world around you, not the other way around. The world can have no part of creating function and design as it is only raw energy and elements. This should be obvious to anyone who has observed matter apart from conscious choice and intelligence."]

You have simply hijacked and twisted standard scientific knowledge. Your conclusions have NOTHING to do with science.

Quote: ["This is proof that God is good."]

No, it proves, that you either know practically nothing about real science, or cynically misuses it.

Quote: ["Apart from God, we do none of this. Our free will can only make choices that are then answered by nature by the laws of physics. All of the universe is comprised of action and reaction. God's perfect laws answer anything we throw at them. We cannot choose to break the laws of nature without reaping what we sow. Our only act of free will is how hard or easy our path will be through this life by our choices. God loves us enough to ensure that He follows the same rules. They are fixed and our sense of right and wrong have little to do with what God knows is best for us. This is His ultimate love to us that He provides this amazing automated world for us to experience through the senses of our automated body."]

A sermon, with assumption on assumption.

proof !!!! 1 + 1 + 2 !!!!!!!!! omg ! !!!!!

if god existed why didn't he just write the bible himself ?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Incredulity would be this: If I say to you, "You are wrong because God is amazing." This is incredulity. I have, however, provided sound reasoning, science and a litany of evidence for the nature and character of God. Anything I say can be verified by living life well or living life apart from the love of God. The fruit you bear will tell the story.

Originally posted by megabytz
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I'll need you to reflect on a few rhetorical questions. Do you make the cones and rods in your eyes activate to see? Do you cause the chemical and biological process in your gut work to digest food? Do you make your hair grow? Do you choose the speed at which it grows? Do you make the heavenly bodies transit the galaxy in synchronized movement? Do you do the calculations necessary to produce athletic movement on the basketball court? Do you cool and heat the body by your circularity system?

You are correct. We have no part in these things, natural laws do. We have a good understanding of all of these things and none of it requires a deity. No more prime mover arguments please.

Essentially you are using an argument from incredulity. You personally cannot understand how these things happen so it must be an invisible supreme being controlling it all.

Maybe you should attempt the ontological argument next.

edit on 3-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-7-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

You have provided absolutely NOTHING in the area of science, logic and rational reasoning. You only claim you have, which doesn't make it true.

Being your own referee isn't enough, and there are some of us here, who can see your pseudo-science for what it is.

double