God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

Finally. Someone with an answer. Thank you so much for providing this. I think that much of what you have said has been on my mind at one time or another. The one thing we can know for sure about God is that He is making us figure Him out. We are here on faith and not fact. When the Bible says, "Test all things", it is telling us our job. Sin and judgment are just as valuable as living a life of commitment to others.

Isn't this the point? Could God have killed Satan the moment He screwed up? Yes. Could He have killed us? Yes. In my view, God went one better. He put us in a material reality where energy cannot be made or destroyed. In other worlds, we are here to work out our salvation until we come back to truth. God says, "find it." Not only this, He gives us a book that must be examined on a spiritual level. Just like Confucius says, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."

Consider that we are all fallen from what God demands. Heaven is amazing and perfect. The Material world is not. It is a school. You quoted the verse Matthew 16:19. What we bind on earth will be bound in heaven. What we bind in heaven will be bound on earth. Consider another meaning based on the worldview of the day in which this was written.

Karma is similar to sin. It is a binding of actions to a person's soul. According to Karma and Dharma (law), we bind our actions according to how these actions affect others. We must mind the Dharma (law and responsibility) and Karma is the process for releasing or binding these choices. The Bible calls this sin and righteousness.

I am a believer in the fact that God gave truth to each continent. The idea of the Hindu avatar is our idea of body, soul and spirit. This is the incarnation of a divine being (us) in a body (bio-mechanical suit). The Eastern religions and many others hold to reincarnation, as do I. In John 3, Jesus tells Nicodemus that, "you must be born again." I take this literally. Baptism is a picture of our soul being baptized (cleansed) in the water. The water is the material world. The other world is the spiritual world. Jesus told Nicodemus that, to enter heaven, you must be born of the water and spirit. In other words, you must be baptized many times until you find the key to spirit. The key is love. If you bind sin on earth, you are bound here. If you loose sin on earth, you are free to enter Heaven.

Go back a few posts and read my view on gaining union with the spirit. This is the simple idea that our mothers womb is only one womb we enter. The earth is another. Since we fell in heaven, as did Satan, we must be born again and do it all over again. This ties your ideas together so they make sense.

Let me know what you think of my perspective. What you have said so far has been very thought provoking.

Originally posted by wx4caster
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Hopefully the OP will read this and hear it through, you ask for a short answer to a long question, that is not likely going to produce decent responses. Before i start, i am not here to be grammatically correct, i may mispell or choose not to capitolize things like i or god and such. be warned.

i have done much research and thinking into god, the bible, what it says what it means. not just the holy bible as in KJV or NIV or such, but also other books. pearl of great price and the book of mormon and so on. i feel that it is important to do so when trying to percieve the bible in an analytical mannor, not on the basis of faith.

if you react on faith alone, then there is no argument. when it comes to faith, we are all independantly correct no matter what we believe in simply because it is our faith. in mathews 16:19 we find

"and I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:"

the jewish equivalent or translation of the word bind was also found to be used in legal context to mean forbid. the next portion of this verse goes on to say

"and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

and we also find the equivelant translation here of loose to mean allow.

okay, so what does this mean? well it means that what we allow on earth will be allowed in heaven and visa versa. it is our faith, what we hold to be morally correct and incorrect on earth will be used as the model for heaven. further more, the basis of good vs evil really falls apart here when you individualize the reference of faith, and accept that each of us have our own beliefs.

so, how else can we think about this? well we can take the scriptures as evidence, and assume for a moment (if you arent already assuming this anyway) that the bible is full of nothing but historical fact and it is accurate description of gods acts towards mankind. THEN, we can list those acts each for morally acceptable or morrally inept and see which weighs more. hey! thats almost objective!

in an offhanded attempt to keep with the OP's request, lets leave the listings to you the reader and i would like to list a few obvious additions to our proposed lists...

god obviously, according to the bible, did the ultimate favor to us all, by bringing us into existance. point one for god being a nice guy. on that thought, make it 5 points, 1000, as many as you want, because other than destroying the universe there is no comparable act found in the bible that we could use to meet this one pound for pound in the middle... or is there? when god created... everything, one part of this everything was (according to the bible) (enter bad guy music) LUCIFER. who would through the entirety of the text plague mankind with deception and temptation, testing our faith at every step... so god created everything, and it was good... mostly. the fact that all powerful god would allow such a creature to exist (he made him) is definately points against. but it gets worse. when i try to bake (rarely) and i burn a cake, i get rid of it. (thats why i dont bake...) i care about those who would eat my cake and i dont want them to get sick. god is definately aware of satan/lucifer/ w/e u wanna call him/it (or her? jus sayin...) and continues, apparantly to today, to allow him to exist.

ok ok, we could tit for tat this all day long. god destroyed sodom and gomorrah, god helped joshua sack jericho, god flooded the world, BUUUT they were gods enemys and they were sinful... so was it a good act or at least justifyable?

in the end, when one looks at the true nature of god, when you combine the events from the old and new testament, i personally have found the god described there to be neither good nor evil. (oh no? what?!) its true.

god is wrathful towards the wicked. god has destroyed the whole lot of mankind to start fresh. he has started wars and ended civilizations over his anger and jealousy, yet he has also made the ultimate sacrifice to save us all. and i think (or hope) that if you really study the acts of good vs evil, there is no real good or evil act when it comes to the bible, just actions based on a condition. god is good or evil dependant on whose side you are on.

now, if you want a real thinker, how about this.

What is the extent of gods knowledge and capability if there is one? and how would you support your assertion

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The inherent sadism in this reply beggars belief and destroys the notion of goodness in either God or his adherents perhaps more totally than any Atheist could.
I'll make you suffer till people see I'm not getting attention then give me their sympathies encapsulates, even if simplistically, the basis of Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy.
This attitude of belief has broken countless millions in dungeons, torture chambers and concentration camps throughout history. Communist regimes also break the notion of 'self' in just such a manner and modern psychologists may say that your cruel and sadistic Old Testament figure ensures such torture to facillitate the reinforcement of Stockholm Syndrome in order to comlete the takeover of the mind and subjucation of the will.

We all recognize truth when we see it. It is already in you. Socrates said that we know all truth when we come to this world. The job is to rediscover what we already knew.

Those moments of insight that you have...you are only finding what was already there. This is the point of living a spiritual life. Apart from the spirit within you, you cannot have access to the deeper concepts of truth. You are essentially a man looking at the surface and waves of a vast ocean, afraid to dive in for what you might need to give up; afraid of what might be lost. The pearl is found in the depths.

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
The word of God is written on your heart. You already know truth. The person picking up the Bible would either recognize truth, or put it down. It all depends on the value you place on what is already there.

what on earth does this mean

(and in your own words please i will happily talk to you but i have no interest in talking to your book)

Have you read the book, The Lucifer Effect?

Consider that you do not know the process God operates under. For instance, as I have stated, transmigration of the soul answers divine justice. Knowing why you are here also answers divine justice. You are here to learn, not to enjoy your vacation from heaven. We are fallen. This means we are here to regain what was lost, not to own the soul from a platform of objectivism (what is in it for me while I am here).

Paradoxically, if we live according to God's law, we bring heaven to earth for ourselves. Does this guarantee that we will live the perfect, peaceful life. No. We may need a lesson that allows us to value something we take for granted. Love demands living and learning. To value what you take for granted from truth, truth demands that you learn to find the value. God will not give up on you until you prove you are his enemy. His love for others demands that He is impartial. His grace demands that you can receive what is unmerited.

Taken from this perspective, you owe it all back to Him. Life is short. You only take with you what you give on earth. When Christ said to sell all you have and give to the poor. He was not necessarily referring to goods and services. He was speaking of what holds you back. What you bind here will be bound in heaven. Loose it here and it is free in heaven.

Originally posted by goldentorch
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The inherent sadism in this reply beggars belief and destroys the notion of goodness in either God or his adherents perhaps more totally than any Atheist could. This attitude of belief has broken countless millions in dungeons, torture chambers and concentration camps throughout history. Communist regimes also break the notion of 'self' in just such a manner and modern psychologists may say that your cruel and sadistic Old Testament figure ensures such torture to facillitate the reinforcement of Stockholm Syndrome in order to comlete the takeover of the mind and subjucation of the will.

edit on 4/7/11 by goldentorch because: grammar

reply to post by SuperiorEd


WHOA! can we please back up - before we examine the attributes of your alleged god - can we have clear evidence of its existance

reply to post by SuperiorEd


try this
its called “selective attention test “ try it the result can be amusing








The test works because the participants are instructed to follow some complex activity and they become so absorbed in doing so that they miss most of the other things that are happening

Christianity works the same way, christians are instructed to believe in the bible, that the bible is good and so on and so christians become absorbed in believing in the bible and so tune out everything else

But those of us who don’t believe in the bible can easily see in reality its non-sense (we can see the man in the gorilla costume – no problem)

One person so far has answered the challenge. LINK The idea is to give testimony of God's goodness or the absence thereof. We each have the opportunity to make point and counterpoint. Let me know your counterpoints or answer the challenge with logic and reason. I'll continue to participate in the forum as I have. I am sticking to reason by the merits of my subject. You can do the same.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

And it's just as simple to NOT accept something for the sake of argument.

Sure, but it's kinda pointless for those people to address other people in the thread who ARE entering into the hypotheticals of the OP.

edit on 4-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

So what's the purpose of starting a thread on ATS at all. To turn the forum into a pulpit or the soap-box of a streetcorner orator? This half-hidden theist agenda of trying to establish censor-like restrictions reflects back on you. You want privileges.

Could the same be said for the detraction the world puts in our way? How many people live for their rewards? Booze, smokes, drugs.... They miss what is most important, like family, God, work.... We see evidence for both lives. The Godly life produces a family just like the ungodly life. Which bears the most pleasing fruit? Take a look at everyone you know. Compare their circumstances to their degree of faith. What do you see?

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

try this
its called “selective attention test “ try it the result can be amusing

The test works because the participants are instructed to follow some complex activity and they become so absorbed in doing so that they miss most of the other things that are happening

Christianity works the same way, christians are instructed to believe in the bible, that the bible is good and so on and so christians become absorbed in believing in the bible and so tune out everything else

But those of us who don’t believe in the bible can easily see in reality its non-sense (we can see the man in the gorilla costume – no problem)

edit on 4-7-2011 by racasan because: (no reason given)

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["We all recognize truth when we see it. It is already in you. Socrates said that we know all truth when we come to this world. The job is to rediscover what we already knew."]

It's an oversimplification, created to lead to your pre-determined answers of self-proclaimed 'absolutes'.

Quote: ["Those moments of insight that you have...you are only finding what was already there. This is the point of living a spiritual life. Apart from the spirit within you, you cannot have access to the deeper concepts of truth. You are essentially a man looking at the surface and waves of a vast ocean, afraid to dive in for what you might need to give up; afraid of what might be lost. The pearl is found in the depths."]

More assumptions. And while such assumptions probably fit the your specific mindset, they don't fit with others'.

That you manifest this need to evangelize your assumptions is part of the mindset deal. Some people feel best with safety in numbers, other are individualists. The only 'moral' implications are, how far some will go to evangelize. To learn the difference between pushing and offering.

Your choice and direction of argumentation indicates strongly, that you haven't learned that distinction yet. Something I may hasten to add, not necessarily is a character-deficiency.

Are you here by your own free will? If you find yourself in a place where you find no value, you will leave. We are all searching for something. I am searching for the same thing you are. My attempts here are to challenge my own faith. I have spent my entire life placing myself against this wall of questioning. I am looking for answers as much as anyone here. I will not end this process until I am gone from this earth.

On the other hand, I see the fruit of what the Spirit brings. So yes, I am here to share this with others. Love demands that we shine a light in a dark place. Love is the example and the purpose.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["We all recognize truth when we see it. It is already in you. Socrates said that we know all truth when we come to this world. The job is to rediscover what we already knew."]

It's an oversimplification, created to lead to your pre-determined answers of self-proclaimed 'absolutes'.

Quote: ["Those moments of insight that you have...you are only finding what was already there. This is the point of living a spiritual life. Apart from the spirit within you, you cannot have access to the deeper concepts of truth. You are essentially a man looking at the surface and waves of a vast ocean, afraid to dive in for what you might need to give up; afraid of what might be lost. The pearl is found in the depths."]

More assumptions. And while such assumptions probably fit the your specific mindset, they don't fit with others'.

That you manifest this need to evangelize your assumptions is part of the mindset deal. Some people feel best with safety in numbers, other are individualists. The only 'moral' implications are, how far some will go to evangelize. To learn the difference between pushing and offering.

Your choice and direction of argumentation indicates strongly, that you haven't learned that distinction yet. Something I may hasten to add, not necessarily is a character-deficiency.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

One person so far has answered the challenge. LINK The idea is to give testimony of God's goodness or the absence thereof. We each have the opportunity to make point and counterpoint. Let me know your counterpoints or answer the challenge with logic and reason. I'll continue to participate in the forum as I have. I am sticking to reason by the merits of my subject. You can do the same.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

And it's just as simple to NOT accept something for the sake of argument.

Sure, but it's kinda pointless for those people to address other people in the thread who ARE entering into the hypotheticals of the OP.

edit on 4-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

So what's the purpose of starting a thread on ATS at all. To turn the forum into a pulpit or the soap-box of a streetcorner orator? This half-hidden theist agenda of trying to establish censor-like restrictions reflects back on you. You want privileges.

You are ofcourse welcome to comment on it also, but just for the record: I do not hold you responsible for NuT's posts or opinions.

I believe by now, that your initial efforts of controlling the flow of the thread are diminshed. But in general you would probably have been better off, if you had chosen a 'protected' site to find 'yes-men' on, people accepting your basic assumptions without questions. Joining a public forum is more risky.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["Are you here by your own free will?"]

I hope not. Then I would be stark raving mad.

Quote: ["We are all searching for something."]

In one way or another most are.

Quote: ["I am searching for the same thing you are."]

I doubt that very much. You don't know enough about me to even guess.

Quote: ["My attempts here are to challenge my own faith. I have spent my entire life placing myself against this wall of questioning. I am looking for answers as much as anyone here. I will not end this process until I am gone from this earth."]

You have chosen to manifest this on ATS in a rather unsuitable way then. Your posts are brimming over with pre-determined answers.

Quote: ["On the other hand, I see the fruit of what the Spirit brings. So yes, I am here to share this with others. Love demands that we shine a light in a dark place. Love is the example and the purpose."]

Believers call it 'sharing'. Non-believers call it 'pushing'.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


"Consider you do not know the process God operates under." ,the words you open with kinda negates the rest of your assertions about 'God's' designs and purposes, amirite?

Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE."

I (object) can do no pushing unless I have a firm foundation to push from. The subject is what bothers you. Anything that reflects truth is a mirror that we see ourselves by. The reflection can be pleasing or cause us pain. This has nothing to do with the object holding the mirror. If my subject is false, then you should be able to see yourself as a better reflection than the one I present. Truth is written in all of our hearts equally. It is not always easy to face. What does it mean to face something?

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["Are you here by your own free will?"]

I hope not. Then I would be stark raving mad.

Quote: ["We are all searching for something."]

In one way or another most are.

Quote: ["I am searching for the same thing you are."]

I doubt that very much. You don't know enough about me to even guess.

Quote: ["My attempts here are to challenge my own faith. I have spent my entire life placing myself against this wall of questioning. I am looking for answers as much as anyone here. I will not end this process until I am gone from this earth."]

You have chosen to manifest this on ATS in a rather unsuitable way then. Your posts are brimming over with pre-determined answers.

Quote: ["On the other hand, I see the fruit of what the Spirit brings. So yes, I am here to share this with others. Love demands that we shine a light in a dark place. Love is the example and the purpose."]

Believers call it 'sharing'. Non-believers call it 'pushing'.

You must be willing to lose everything to gain it all. This does not mean a literal hatred. God's example explains this to you. You must love God first in order to love others. Loving others first does not reflect true love. God is others and He is the first other you must love. Jesus often spoke in opposites to make the converse argument. This is similar to a Cohen. Read the Gospel of Thomas if you really want to see this in action. What He means is veiled in how He says it. More meaning is brought out by this. This type of speech is a personification commonly used in allegory.

Originally posted by aero56
Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and HATE not his father, and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE."

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Why would "God" write a book that should not be interpreted literally?

Oh yes I remember you from your last thread – you came across as trying to force the flow of that discussion to follow some predetermined script in your own head

moving on

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Could the same be said for the detraction the world puts in our way?

Yes very likely

How many people live for their rewards? Booze, smokes, drugs....

So you see religion as been as bad for you and about as meaningful as “Booze, smokes, drugs” well there we can agree

They miss what is most important, like family, God, work....

I focus on and get great pleasure from my family and work I don’t however have anything to do with your god concept

We see evidence for both lives. The Godly life produces a family just like the ungodly life. Which bears the most pleasing fruit? Take a look at everyone you know. Compare their circumstances to their degree of faith. What do you see?

If you are trying to imply that people who have the same god concept as you are somehow better than me or my family then you and I are going to have a falling out

Seriously, I keep hearing that we HAVE to LOVE... Why?? Because a 'God' tells us he likes it?? The more I hear and read things like that the more it makes me believe the Bible and similar Holy books were written in order to keep the mass population in a state of fear and docile so we don't rise up and figure out the real truth behind the world and universe, I believe Religion holds us all back.

Just who is 'God' ? Or what is he/her/it? How did 'God' come into being? Is 'God' from a previous advanced Earth civilization which slowly died or just left us to it?

These are the questions I don't see your average Catholics trying to answer, Why??

Until a lot more questions like those are answered I'l remain open minded.

A calm sea does not a skilled sailor make.

When I say those words, most anyone can then write a distinct narrative from those words. Each narrative will be unique to the persons experience in life. If I say this:

God gave you computer problems to teach you how to react to struggles.

This statement is concrete and talks only to you. An abstract comment on wisdom tells the story for everyone.

If I ask you, "What is the sound of one hand clapping," what is your answer? This is a well known Koan meant to make you think. Many perspectives, all true, are possible. False perspectives are there as well. It is meant to make you derive the correct meaning.

The sound of one hand clapping, for me, is the sound of two clapping. I agree with the person in the link above. He says that everything is in uniform relation to everything else in life. One hand cannot clap without the other being there to clap against. This is the sound of one hand clapping. Two clapping together. God is there and we must recognize that we need Him to survive. He desires our love above all. For Him and to others.

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Why would "God" write a book that should not be interpreted literally?