God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

reply to post by SuperiorEd


i really have a hard time staying away from topics like this, althougheach time i get near one i cant help but cringe because it always breaks down. in order to objectively think through any topic you must be willing to either grant the opposite side an allowance of expertise, or have in hand a set of undeniable observable and reproducable facts.

well in the realm of faith there are no such facts. (keep your stones in your pockets, im no heathen...) it is difficult for true christians to swallow that statement, and i can understand why. when a human, and more specifically an adult, frames his whole life existance around a set of beliefs, it can be shaky ground to allow for them not to be true. scientists do this every day, and believe me it can turn catty very quickly, because even in the realm of science there are theories more than fact.

this being a theological debate that is void of fact, in order to regain objectiveness, one or the other has to allow for an opposite oppinion to hold weight. (i said that poorly...) that is, well... lemme explain.

thee question is god = good or god = bad. right out, in order to participate in the debate, i must allow that god exists, otherwise without god the question has no merit, and the only argument i have is "you idiot there is no god" which is not really an answer at all.

wether or not i believe there is a god is really irrelevent. perhaps a more unbiased question would be:

"Is the god described in christian text inheritantl good or is he evil"

there, now it is no longer about whether he is real, it is about is the characture described as a god like being in the bible.

in the end, i am saddened by the inability of some to simply put away thier belief or the lack thereof and debate healthily on an interesting subject. because even if god is man made, we can still learn a great deal by understanding what man's concept of deism was simply by allowing ourselves to be in thier shoes and granting god his existance, even f only long enough to delve into the deeper meaning of the psychology of early jewish culture.

what makes it harder here, on an other note, is the fact that the translation of the oldest documents to modern language leaves much to the individual. we have many different words in modern language that describe a single idea, while it was common then to have many different ideas that could be described by a single word.

imagine if i simply removed a large portion of your personal vocabulary then asked you to describe in great detail a very significant and incredible event in your life? even if you used english with a very limited vocabulary, i would likely misunderstand at least some part of your story.

we find this in the bible alot, and a line divides those who believe that each word is meant to be literally accepted, and those who feel the bible has more symbolism than literalism.

(the rest typed here is most certainly OPPINION, my own personal oppinion...)

I find that the bible has lost its allure once i was old enough to understand that a great vast magority of modern christians use bits and peices of the bible to validate thier own moral coding and beliefs. i dont mean that you use the bible as reason to believe in god. that is what it was intended to do... i am describing those o you who use the bible to say that things such as abortion and stem cell research are wrong. or that i am going to live in hell for eternity because im am not lutheran, or morman, or baptist, etc;. and i particularly have a distaste for those who choose to be bible pickers. they keep the parts that fit thier wants and choose to ignore the rest.

case in point; in nature it is very common to see species of animals performing homosexual acts. but many christians choose to use the bible as grounds to hate homosexuals. the bible only condemns homosexuality in one spot, leviticus. ironically, this is the same book that says your not supposed to buy clothes at any modern store. because after all, in Lev 19 it says that you cant wear cloth of wool and linen mix....

i personally am not christian. it has nothing to do with wanting to rebel against an oppressive god, nor am i some satan worshiping idoloter. i had the blessing of not being raised in a church which allowed for me to come about my beliefs based on what i... well.... beleived? in highschool, i was confronted by a group of kids at a football game who told me about my inevitable eternity of suffering if i didnt get saved. i was saved that night in the paringlot hinched behind a pickup truck with 5 people holding me and crying. i thought man, this stuff must be real! look how much they feel it! and for several years after that i was christian. then i got to see the world outside of what we see on tv and what we hear from our clergy.

my first deployment was 9 months. i didnt do much of anything but read... alot... mostly religious texts. i had a buddy named herrera from utah. we got into debate and he enlightened me to his mormon beliefs. so i began reading. another friend of mine introduced me to eastern theology and from there i began reading every book i could find in the chaplins library.

long story short, and many years later, and much more reading under my belt, i have this current (and i say current because i am very fluid with beliefs, its important to be so) i believe that there is truth in all religions, and our creators were mortal, just not from this earth. aint that a kick in the pants!!

Keep in mind that you are fallen here to earth. You lost your first estate in Heaven, just like Satan. Love is the law. Honestly, just think about the absurdity of your contention that love is not necessary. We are not left with anything in this life worth anything if we do not love. You love a car. You love a good book. This type of love is not the same. Divine love is a humble respect for others as equal to you. No pride. Pride can only say that you are better than others. Love equalizes us all as brothers; as neighbors.

You are here because you are fallen from God's law of love. The earth is a place for you to regain love. Nothing you do here will work well apart form love. Try if you want, you will only gain your own pride. Pride cannot raise a family that will then love their own kids. Only love does that. Love is passed on and paid forward. Anything else is not giving, it is taking.

Originally posted by ATS1Calum
Seriously, I keep hearing that we HAVE to LOVE... Why?? Because a 'God' tells us he likes it?? The more I hear and read things like that the more it makes me believe the Bible and similar Holy books were written in order to keep the mass population in a state of fear and docile so we don't rise up and figure out the real truth behind the world and universe, I believe Religion holds us all back.

Just who is 'God' ? Or what is he/her/it? How did 'God' come into being? Is 'God' from a previous advanced Earth civilization which slowly died or just left us to it?

These are the questions I don't see your average Catholics trying to answer, Why??

Until a lot more questions like those are answered I'l remain open minded.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Go back a few posts and read my view on gaining union with the spirit. This is the simple idea that our mothers womb is only one womb we enter. The earth is another. Since we fell in heaven, as did Satan, we must be born again and do it all over again. This ties your ideas together so they make sense.

Let me know what you think of my perspective. What you have said so far has been very thought provoking.

i really like the idea that we are some spiritual entity caught in a cycle of existance in order to tune our souls so that they are capable of being in gods presence. why not? i am a huge fan that there are many truths in the bible, many things that are described i believe happened. i know from my science background that energy cannot be created or destroyed and the idea of reincarnation is a comfortable one for me to accept even from a scientific vantage.

my real problem with it lies in the existance of an omnicient ever lasting infinite creator god who to this day keeps an eye on each of us and knows us all. if you trade that for way advanced civilization as described by humans without the vocabulary to express the experience, and im all aboard.

i would be curious to see how an average 6 year old would describe witnessing a kennedy space launch. it would probably be a valid comparison, but again, thats just my oppinion

Not at all. The odds are good that you raise your family from the same moral values found in the Bible. This is mostly due to the love and example of others who do follow the biblical concept of love. The Bible has influenced everyone. When Luther nailed His thesis to the door of the churches in Europe, the world was forever changed. This brought the printing press and the Bible into the hands of the masses. As a result, the masses, by WWI, became literate. We do not even match this literacy rate today. Before the printing of the Bible, the masses could not read. This benefit then caused the scientific and industrial revolution. This is all a direct result of the Church using the printing press to print indulgences. Luther stood up for truth and the rest is history. 70 million people fled Europe for freedom of expression as they learned the truths in the Bible. You raise your family based on the results of this. Deny it if you like. You will be incorrect. We are all products of the thoughts of men throughout history. These thoughts are shaped by the morals in the Bible and the truth that this book has revealed to the mind of man.

Originally posted by racasan

If you are trying to imply that people who have the same god concept as you are somehow better than me or my family then you and I are going to have a falling out

reply to post by SuperiorEd


A God who has the power to intervene but not the will, is menevolent. A God who has the will but not the power, is not a god. You are aware that nowhere in the bible does it mention dinosaurs right? Or evolution, or anything scientific, tangible, and real. I feel so bad that you are sucked into the brainwashed mentality Christianity. I truly wish you luck..

reply to post by SuperiorEd


A God who has the power to intervene but not the will, is menevolent. A God who has the will but not the power, is not a god. You are aware that nowhere in the bible does it mention dinosaurs right? Or evolution, or anything scientific, tangible, and real. I feel so bad that you are sucked into the brainwashed mentality Christianity. I truly wish you luck..

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Give it a rest..all you are doing is letting the antis have a place to rant against God....try something else

I had a similar thought once. I tried to image what man would do one day when he figured out how to manipulate time. If it is possible that we advance to the point of coming back and speaking to ourselves in the past through prophecy, then we may be our own God. In this perspective, we are the advanced beings we see as God. There are any number of scifi examples we can dream up. However, if we are willing to understand the God of the Bible as trustworthy, we can then see Him as trusted with His word. Whatever we imagine to be true must fit with what He says. Anything else makes Him a liar and not worth following.

Is He Good? This is the question. So far, there are no examples from the Bible that indicate that He is anything but just and righteous. Trustworthy is all we can say about Him. Our lives tell a witness to what is stated in the Bible. Like it our not, He is a father like no other. We would do the same for our kids if given the same degree of wisdom and understanding. A father is an apt metaphor for God. Fatherly love requires strength of character and demanding no less than this from our kids.

Originally posted by wx4caster

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Go back a few posts and read my view on gaining union with the spirit. This is the simple idea that our mothers womb is only one womb we enter. The earth is another. Since we fell in heaven, as did Satan, we must be born again and do it all over again. This ties your ideas together so they make sense.

Let me know what you think of my perspective. What you have said so far has been very thought provoking.

i really like the idea that we are some spiritual entity caught in a cycle of existance in order to tune our souls so that they are capable of being in gods presence. why not? i am a huge fan that there are many truths in the bible, many things that are described i believe happened. i know from my science background that energy cannot be created or destroyed and the idea of reincarnation is a comfortable one for me to accept even from a scientific vantage.

my real problem with it lies in the existance of an omnicient ever lasting infinite creator god who to this day keeps an eye on each of us and knows us all. if you trade that for way advanced civilization as described by humans without the vocabulary to express the experience, and im all aboard.

i would be curious to see how an average 6 year old would describe witnessing a kennedy space launch. it would probably be a valid comparison, but again, thats just my oppinion

God has been around for many ages. We are young as creations go. There is no reason that the Bible doesn't start with man when man starts in creation. Dinosaurs are a creation as well. Apparently they did not love each other or they would still be here. I say that in a humorous way, but the truth is that God does not need our reasoning to be good. He does not need us to be God. He does, however, love us enough to give us a process to save us from ourselves.

What did God do before man? I assume He spent His time perfecting our bio-mechanical suit. This took some lab work, no doubt. Until His creation was ready to receive a spirit, the soulish animal nature was perfected. The Bible states that all of nature is a witness of His love to us. The animals and plants are there for our benefit. We have used them as such, have we not?

We are the only animal we know that possess a spirit. This gives us the ability to reason and create in a unique manner. We are in the image of God. It stands to reason we would be given a place to learn before we gain an eternal vehicle to roam the universe. Are there people you know who would not be trusted to roam the universe forever? Are there people you know who would be worthy of a perfected universe? The new Heaven and the new earth will be for those who can love God and their fellow man. This is the defining factor for every news story you read on Drudge.

Originally posted by tciottoni
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

A God who has the power to intervene but not the will, is menevolent. A God who has the will but not the power, is not a god. You are aware that nowhere in the bible does it mention dinosaurs right? Or evolution, or anything scientific, tangible, and real. I feel so bad that you are sucked into the brainwashed mentality Christianity. I truly wish you luck..

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["I (object) can do no pushing unless I have a firm foundation to push from."]

Most theist pushing is done from a starting-point of fantasies, myths or homecooked 'methodologies'. Whether this is a question for rhetorical analysis or not, doesn't interest me so much, that such theist pushing observably takes place.

Quote: ["The subject is what bothers you."]

Before I can relate to if anything bothers me and how, I would need to know, what this 'subject' is, you refer to.

Quote: ["Anything that reflects truth is a mirror that we see ourselves by."]

Undoubtly a very true platitude.

Quote: ["The reflection can be pleasing or cause us pain."]

Amongst many other not so black/white exclusive options, where only these two are picked for demagogic reasons.

Quote: ["This has nothing to do with the object holding the mirror."]

It has something to do with the quality of the mirror, and the 'object' (as you call it) has options of different mirror-qualities.

Quote: ["If my subject is false, then you should be able to see yourself as a better reflection than the one I present."]

I hope, I don't sound rude saying this, but evening-class philosophy for beginners isn't something I'll use time on here. Basically you have still not arrived to the understanding, that this intricate situation you describe (which most of us call 'perspectives'), isn't only a question of 'answers', but also of how you find answers. That includes the validity of any 'perspective' per se, as a step in any reasoning-chain.

Quote: ["Truth is written in all of our hearts equally."]

Assumption. Giving you a hint on how to get out of your assumption-treadmill: My answer just above on 'perspectives' should give you some inspiration to 'promote' an assumption to a valid perspective.

Quote: ["It is not always easy to face."]

Ignorance, stupidity, incompetence and other typical human shortcomings are equally difficult to face. We all have our individual hurdles to pass; don't make yourself the norm for everybody.

Quote: ["What does it mean to face something?"]

Is that a question to me, or just rhetoric?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Not at all. The odds are good that you raise your family from the same moral values found in the Bible.

moral values found in the Bible such as

killing
Exodus 32:27
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
Numbers 15:35
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones.
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and
suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

hating
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Incest
Genesis 20:12
And yet indeed, she [Sarah] is my [Abraham's] sister; she is the daughter of my father.
Genesis 17:16
And I will bless her [Sarah], and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Slavery
Leviticus 25:44-46
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Exodus 21:7-11
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you are looking to defend your disbelief in God, save it for another thread. The question here is God's goodness, not his existence.

Surely if "a.n.anybody" is arguably good or bad then that "a.n.anybody" has to exist. Otherwise the analysis is pointless! A non existant thing is neither good nor bad.

So anybody engaging in the debate must, by definition, agree to the existance of god. Since atheists do not believe god exists no true atheist can debate the point of goodness. Your thread is dead to all but those who like to write for the sake of writing. Or antagonise for the sake if it.......there are plenty !!!!!!

That was a great post. This sounds just like my thoughts a few years ago. One of the documents that helped me is, of all thing, Hermetic philosophy. Give this a read. Notice the description of the paradoxical nature of truth. For every truth, there is an equal untruth. Why? Truth is a reflection. There is a mirror reflection that seems as true, but is in fact, only a degree of difference from the same. Read these and let me know what you think when you examine these principles:

This is a quote from my blog, so there are ideas from the original article within.

I THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM

According to the Corpus Hermeticum, the universe is a construct within the mind of God. We are part of that mind in relation to the axiom, “As above, so below,” which is the second principle of Correspondence. For Hermes, God was the source of all. Nothing exists outside of God for materials, so a mental projection is the best metaphor we are able to understand. Our consciousness is an autonomous image of this projection possessing free will.

II THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE

As above, so below. As below, so above.

III THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION

According to Hermes, all you know is in a state of vibration and movement. Do you remember when I mentioned string theory before? Hermes said it all along. As long as we are mentioning vibration, do you realize that in the time you have read this article, you have traveled thousands of miles in space? The Earth is moving; the sun is moving; the galaxy is moving, and all of it floating in Dark Matter and Dark Energy that cannot be observed, making up a full 90% of what “Science” claims to understand. Like two people playing ping-pong on a train, you move in relative motion to the world around you. I say two people playing because two is an accurate metaphor for the duality of mind and body that makes the one 'you'.

IV THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY

"Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled." All opposites are only a degree of the same, like temperature is to degrees on the thermometer. This explains the paradoxical nature of truth. Yours may be higher than mine, but neither as high as God's ultimate understanding. Contradiction in the Bible can be explained within this understanding. Differences in religion can be seen as differing degrees of the same.

V THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM

"Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum-swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates."

VI THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT

"Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law."

VII THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER

"Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles; Gender manifests on all planes."

Originally posted by wx4caster
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

i really have a hard time staying away from topics like this, althougheach time i get near one i cant help but cringe because it always breaks down. in order to objectively think through any topic you must be willing to either grant the opposite side an allowance of expertise, or have in hand a set of undeniable observable and reproducable facts.

well in the realm of faith there are no such facts. (keep your stones in your pockets, im no heathen...) it is difficult for true christians to swallow that statement, and i can understand why. when a human, and more specifically an adult, frames his whole life existance around a set of beliefs, it can be shaky ground to allow for them not to be true. scientists do this every day, and believe me it can turn catty very quickly, because even in the realm of science there are theories more than fact.

this being a theological debate that is void of fact, in order to regain objectiveness, one or the other has to allow for an opposite oppinion to hold weight. (i said that poorly...) that is, well... lemme explain.

thee question is god = good or god = bad. right out, in order to participate in the debate, i must allow that god exists, otherwise without god the question has no merit, and the only argument i have is "you idiot there is no god" which is not really an answer at all.

wether or not i believe there is a god is really irrelevent. perhaps a more unbiased question would be:

"Is the god described in christian text inheritantl good or is he evil"

there, now it is no longer about whether he is real, it is about is the characture described as a god like being in the bible.

in the end, i am saddened by the inability of some to simply put away thier belief or the lack thereof and debate healthily on an interesting subject. because even if god is man made, we can still learn a great deal by understanding what man's concept of deism was simply by allowing ourselves to be in thier shoes and granting god his existance, even f only long enough to delve into the deeper meaning of the psychology of early jewish culture.

what makes it harder here, on an other note, is the fact that the translation of the oldest documents to modern language leaves much to the individual. we have many different words in modern language that describe a single idea, while it was common then to have many different ideas that could be described by a single word.

imagine if i simply removed a large portion of your personal vocabulary then asked you to describe in great detail a very significant and incredible event in your life? even if you used english with a very limited vocabulary, i would likely misunderstand at least some part of your story.

we find this in the bible alot, and a line divides those who believe that each word is meant to be literally accepted, and those who feel the bible has more symbolism than literalism.

(the rest typed here is most certainly OPPINION, my own personal oppinion...)

I find that the bible has lost its allure once i was old enough to understand that a great vast magority of modern christians use bits and peices of the bible to validate thier own moral coding and beliefs. i dont mean that you use the bible as reason to believe in god. that is what it was intended to do... i am describing those o you who use the bible to say that things such as abortion and stem cell research are wrong. or that i am going to live in hell for eternity because im am not lutheran, or morman, or baptist, etc;. and i particularly have a distaste for those who choose to be bible pickers. they keep the parts that fit thier wants and choose to ignore the rest.

case in point; in nature it is very common to see species of animals performing homosexual acts. but many christians choose to use the bible as grounds to hate homosexuals. the bible only condemns homosexuality in one spot, leviticus. ironically, this is the same book that says your not supposed to buy clothes at any modern store. because after all, in Lev 19 it says that you cant wear cloth of wool and linen mix....

i personally am not christian. it has nothing to do with wanting to rebel against an oppressive god, nor am i some satan worshiping idoloter. i had the blessing of not being raised in a church which allowed for me to come about my beliefs based on what i... well.... beleived? in highschool, i was confronted by a group of kids at a football game who told me about my inevitable eternity of suffering if i didnt get saved. i was saved that night in the paringlot hinched behind a pickup truck with 5 people holding me and crying. i thought man, this stuff must be real! look how much they feel it! and for several years after that i was christian. then i got to see the world outside of what we see on tv and what we hear from our clergy.

my first deployment was 9 months. i didnt do much of anything but read... alot... mostly religious texts. i had a buddy named herrera from utah. we got into debate and he enlightened me to his mormon beliefs. so i began reading. another friend of mine introduced me to eastern theology and from there i began reading every book i could find in the chaplins library.

long story short, and many years later, and much more reading under my belt, i have this current (and i say current because i am very fluid with beliefs, its important to be so) i believe that there is truth in all religions, and our creators were mortal, just not from this earth.

aint that a kick in the pants!!

Read the OP. This was discussed there.

Originally posted by malcr

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you are looking to defend your disbelief in God, save it for another thread. The question here is God's goodness, not his existence.

Surely if "a.n.anybody" is arguably good or bad then that "a.n.anybody" has to exist. Otherwise the analysis is pointless! A non existant thing is neither good nor bad.

So anybody engaging in the debate must, by definition, agree to the existance of god. Since atheists do not believe god exists no true atheist can debate the point of goodness. Your thread is dead to all but those who like to write for the sake of writing. Or antagonise for the sake if it.......there are plenty !!!!!!

Originally posted by malcr

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
If you are looking to defend your disbelief in God, save it for another thread. The question here is God's goodness, not his existence.

Surely if "a.n.anybody" is arguably good or bad then that "a.n.anybody" has to exist. Otherwise the analysis is pointless! A non existant thing is neither good nor bad.

So anybody engaging in the debate must, by definition, agree to the existance of god. Since atheists do not believe god exists no true atheist can debate the point of goodness. Your thread is dead to all but those who like to write for the sake of writing. Or antagonise for the sake if it.......there are plenty !!!!!!

not true, i am an atheist, yet i can debate his goodness.

i know othello was a shakspearian creation, whom never had life, yet i could debate that iago was an obvious turd...

Different day and age. I am actually surprised that someone did not use this before now. I can only say that God defends, protects and honors those who love Him. This is a short answer and the best we can define from the words of the Bible. This was a different day and age. We think people were evil today? If you lived in any other age, you would looking to God for help too. Today is band enough. Try a day and age where chaos reigned supreme. Keep in mind, God was working in the land around Israel. We need to study other religions to know how He was working in other lands. The Bible is specific to the region of Israel. Look at how the surrounding nations act today and multiply this. I trust God that His actions protected those who loved Him. There was a reason that He choose the people of Israel.

Also, keep in mind the possibility of transmigration of the soul. If you die, you come back into another skin. How does a snake shed His skin and then take on a new skin? Satan said this very thing to God after destroying Job's children. He told God, "skin for skin." He meant, to my reasoning, that they would be back in another skin anyway. God knew what he was talking about.

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Not at all. The odds are good that you raise your family from the same moral values found in the Bible.

moral values found in the Bible such as

killing
Exodus 32:27
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
Numbers 15:35
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones.
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and
suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

hating
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Incest
Genesis 20:12
And yet indeed, she [Sarah] is my [Abraham's] sister; she is the daughter of my father.
Genesis 17:16
And I will bless her [Sarah], and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Slavery
Leviticus 25:44-46
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Exodus 21:7-11
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Read these and let me know what you think when you examine these principles:

now your getting close to where i am at. yet we have vast differences between us.

my latest delve into books (although recently it has been more online reading, paper is going away eventually) has been into physics. i have loved math and science since i was small, but here recently i have been trying to reconcile what i hold to be true for my view of how we came to be and what i have learned in science.

when you get into QED and when dealing with physcs at extremed (extremely small fast hot cold and so on) things get blurred.

here is something to think about. ou feel like you have mass, that is that you wear clothes and if you hit a brick wall with much velocity you inact a large and unfortunately painful for you force on the wall. BUT, in the grand scheme of things, all matter is comprised of alot of empty space. a hydrogen atom can be described as a golf ball orbiting a base ball with miles in between. thats alot of empty space! not to mention, electrons dont orbit the nucleus the way that planets orbit the sun, its more of a probability that the electron is at some point at some time, or as it has been noted, two places at once!

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

And it's just as simple to NOT accept something for the sake of argument.

Sure, but it's kinda pointless for those people to address other people in the thread who ARE entering into the hypotheticals of the OP.

So what's the purpose of starting a thread on ATS at all. To turn the forum into a pulpit or the soap-box of a streetcorner orator? This half-hidden theist agenda of trying to establish censor-like restrictions reflects back on you. You want privileges.

(Example)


OP: For the sake of argument lets assume there is intelligent life on Mars, but these extra-terrestrials are inter-dimensional and they can appear in our four dimensions or disappear at will. Let's assume they've been here on Earth watching us, interacting with us, and manipulating events for thousands of years....

Poster 1: Well, maybe these aliens from Mars are friendly?

Poster 2: Well, maybe these entities from Mars are superior and know the best for us..

Poster 3: Well, maybe these entities destroyed their world and they see us traveling down the same path...

Poster 4: Aliens don't exist on Mars!!!!!

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Different day and age. I am actually surprised that someone did not use this before now. I can only say that God defends, protects and honors those who love Him. This is a short answer and the best we can define from the words of the Bible. This was a different day and age. We think people were evil today? If you lived in any other age, you would looking to God for help too. Today is band enough. Try a day and age where chaos reigned supreme. Keep in mind, God was working in the land around Israel. We need to study other religions to know how He was working in other lands. The Bible is specific to the region of Israel. Look at how the surrounding nations act today and multiply this. I trust God that His actions protected those who loved Him. There was a reason that He choose the people of Israel.

Also, keep in mind the possibility of transmigration of the soul. If you die, you come back into another skin. How does a snake shed His skin and then take on a new skin? Satan said this very thing to God after destroying Job's children. He told God, "skin for skin." He meant, to my reasoning, that they would be back in another skin anyway. God knew what he was talking about.

u gotta be careful here. it is important that when debating the goodness of god that you maintain some sense of foundation for your debate.

its ok to allow that god exists and examin his works and actions as described in the bible, but you cannot pick and choose which parts of the bible apply to our debate, it must either all apply or... none of it can.

if you begin to isolate the material, the debate loses validity very quickly

Originally posted by goldentorch
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The inherent sadism in this reply beggars belief and destroys the notion of goodness in either God or his adherents perhaps more totally than any Atheist could.
I'll make you suffer till people see I'm not getting attention then give me their sympathies encapsulates, even if simplistically, the basis of Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy.
This attitude of belief has broken countless millions in dungeons, torture chambers and concentration camps throughout history. Communist regimes also break the notion of 'self' in just such a manner and modern psychologists may say that your cruel and sadistic Old Testament figure ensures such torture to facillitate the reinforcement of Stockholm Syndrome in order to comlete the takeover of the mind and subjucation of the will.

I'll be sure not to ground my children when they are in rebellion in the future in an effort to get their attention. I don't want someone accusing me of using tactics that foster 'Stockholm Syndrome' in my children. Thanks for the insight.