God is GOOD and I will defend Him. A Challenge for Atheists

God created Satan. God loved satan as he would anyone else. Satan walked away from loving God and placed Himself above God. You make the case that God should have killed Satan and his angels that fell. I have my own theology on this. We are the fallen angels. It's us.

My belief is that Satan is prince of this earth because we followed him here. God made man, yes. He made man as a vehicle for the fallen realm to regain their place in Heaven.

For me, this is the most plausible answer.

So, if we are the fallen angels, why do we not know who we are?

We are here under a veil. Some call it the veil of forgetfulness. The Bible calls it the veil of the temple. Our bodies are the temple of God. The veil allows us to live in this new estate by faith to prove ourselves worth of love. We are a soul that is housed in a body (bio-mechanical suit) so that we can experience the story nature tells us. Romans 1

How do we not know this? We cannot know if we are to live by faith only. If we know God as fact, it would not be faith. Love and hope requires faith.

Again, this is my view. Most of the Christian world will not hold this view. I am only using my intuition to figure it out. Genesis 6 tells of the Divine Beings having their way with the women of earth. The women of earth ate of the fruit. Man fell. It seems logical to me that we are the incarnation of fallen creations of God. Angels if you like. We are still created by God either way.

If I am wrong, then God is still obligated to deal with Satan in love, not hate. He abides by His own law. Satan still has the free will to deceive us to His own ultimate destruction. We have the choice to follow him there or follow God again to salvation.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT THEN HE KNOWS EVERYTHING..AS IN THE ALPHA AND OMEGA SCRIPTURE. HE THEREFORE KNEW WHAT SATAN WOULD BE BEFORE HE CREATED HIM, THUS GOD IS AN ADVOCATE OF CHAOS OR HE IS EVIL.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["As a Christian, I often hear the Atheist accuse God of not being Good."]

Atheists often use the premises of science/logic. Theists use premises of circle-argumentation with a pre-determined answer. Naturally the two groups arrive at different conclusions.

Quote: ["Despite the fact that He is not considered to be real, they vigorously defend their position that He is also not good."]

You can analyse a fictive character also. And what principles that fictive character is an expression of.

Quote: ["I simply say, prove it against my logic below."]

I didn't find any logic.

Quote: ["Keep answers short."]

Why? .....this OP is relatively long. Are you claiming any privileges?

Quote: ["One more thing, please do not resort to saying that I make assumptions. All of what will be said will require an assumption of one form or another. Rather than blast me, build your own logical answer."]

In that case, it would have been better if you had avoided assumptions and relied on logic yourself.

Quote: ["Answer the challenge below with a short answer and not a novel."]

You don't have a very good grip on forum debate, do you? You DON'T dictate the conditions of other peoples' comments.

Quote: ["I assume my answer is correct."]

But no-one is expected to point out, that it's an assumption.

Quote: ["We will all assume God is real in this exercise for the sake of the argument."]

NO, 'WE' will not assume this. YOU can assume it to your heart's desire though.

Quote: ["If you are looking to defend your disbelief in God, save it for another thread."]

You are not in a position of censoring a thread.

Quote: ["Since God can be considered others in relation to us, then also assume that God considers us others as well."]

Which is an assumption, and a base for your later very peculiar mathematical 'equations' (which from any logical perspective are non-sense).

Quote: ["Give me your logic and reasoning for God’s ability to hate anyone enough to send them to hell."]

Such a question is called a double-bind, and is meant to corner people into pre-determined answers. If this question instead had been asked: "Does Jahveh behave like like a megalomaniac psychopath?" (which is another way of referring to 'good/bad'), the optional answers would be more extensive.

Please avoid to much semantic gymnastics, and try to stay with the 'logic' you mentioned earlier.

Quote: ["God demands that we love Him and others."]

Welll, this character is known for his obsession with control, so it's not so strange, that he 'demands' something which only can be given freely.

Quote: ["Since we are others to God and God is others to us, we must love both God and others, including ourselves. God must love Himself as well as others with the ultimate love possible."]

This is on the ASSUMPTION, that your scholastic 'mathematical equations' have any meaning (which they don't).

Quote: ["Even those of us who do not merit this favor and grace can make the choice to love all others as ourselves--God's golden rule."]

You mean, that we shall be grateful for 'god' forgiving US for the incompetence with which HE has messed up things (that is, according to the myth). Why don't you just talk for yourself instead of pushing this on that part of mankind, who neither want nor believe your myth.

Quote: [" Restrict your answers to those you can rightly attach to God and assume the Christian religion only. Islam should not be considered since they do not adhere to the Bible directly. We will assume the God of the Bible only."]

I have no comments. This attitude speaks for itself.

You may want to read Genesis again and read my post about us being fallen beings with Satan. My view is that we came here with Him in the fall. God placed us here to redeem ourselves. I choose God because He is Good and the Bible is the example of this without exception. Satan is clearly at work in our world, there is no doubt. His aim is to steal, kill and destroy us and keep us from God.

I make the choice for God by His nature of love and example of compassion on us. I would want no less than this goodness for my own kids. By not choosing God, you choose what is left.

Originally posted by RickyVelveeta
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

of course this is possible, how is it different to someone asking; say, somebody's opinion of darth vader's character in the star wars movies, or harry potter etc? there's enough in the bible to get an idea of god's character, if anything NOT believing allows for a more impartial view on the subject.

i do not believe in the god from the bible, but i would not want to be on his side even if he was real; i'm really not cool with the stuff already mentioned in this thread and most of the old testament, too much sadistic power tripping for my liking; i'm doing just fine by myself and especially don't need the ambiguous threat of hell hanging over me to be a good person.

The thing about a god, is religious people have told me if I don’t believe then I will not go to heaven.
I like to see things for myself. If god is watching then he, it, or her, will judge me on what I have done not on how much I worship him. I refuse to fear a god, if he’s there then I hope to meet him, if I get to the pearly gates and he says you can’t come in because I didn’t worship him then I will say see ya later, I would rather spend my time in entirety with like minded people than in front of a slave master who insists an blind faith and unquestioning devotion.
We are all god. Thus we will be judged by all. That is if there is anything after we die.

I will refer you to my answer on John 3 and transmigration of the soul. As I read John 3, we must be born again. The reason for this is so that we can experience all 7 continents and all perspectives. I read John 3 as saying that we must be born of water (Material World) until we are ready to be born again into the spirit. My understanding of hell is the material world after entropy and the works of mans unrighteousness are finished with it. Can you imagine being unable to escape this world in 1000 years, after war and plagues are gone; after God removes His Holy Spirit? The Bible says clearly that the Holy Spirit is restraining us right now from what we are capable of. Hell will be right here after we are finished.

John 3 also says that we escape the water by being born of the water and spirit. Our baptism here into the water of the mater world is followed by being born of the spirit when we find love for God and our neighbor. The golden rule must be found by man or God will not allow us back into the Kingdom of God. The Bible is very clear on this.

If I am wrong on John 3 and transmigration, then you have one life to get it right. I do not agree with this. Divine justice, it seems to me, would require more than one life.

You decide. I already have.

Originally posted by mb2591
What do you have to say for all those who pray to a different god..? Isn't your god going to send them to hell for that?

I can give you a better way. Simply ask God to prove Himself to you. Seek Him in humility and He is faithful. Most people do not understand that it is just that easy. You need only ask and He will not let you alone. Just remember to remain humble as he shows you. Pride is what separates. God works with you in love and truth. You must reciprocate. Only joy and understanding follows your request. You are going to face trials no matter what you believe. God shows you through your trials if you trust. Ask. That's it.

Originally posted by Paul47
The thing about a god, is religious people have told me if I don’t believe then I will not go to heaven.
I like to see things for myself. If god is watching then he, it, or her, will judge me on what I have done not on how much I worship him. I refuse to fear a god, if he’s there then I hope to meet him, if I get to the pearly gates and he says you can’t come in because I didn’t worship him then I will say see ya later, I would rather spend my time in entirety with like minded people than in front of a slave master who insists an blind faith and unquestioning devotion.
We are all god. Thus we will be judged by all. That is if there is anything after we die.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


My best friend is a mechanical engineer who makes tins cans that stores food so Britain may store food and eat to live, his wife is a nurse and has dedicated her life to making people better or helping the terminal cope better and talking to their families to ease the pain. Last week I went to the funeral of their 10 day old baby. WHERE THE FCUK WAS YOUR GOD THEN?

If "god" is "all powerful" (or even cares about being perceived as such) then why does it need YOU to defend it? You are probably the least qualified mass of moving matter in the universe to be defending such a thing.

reply to post by Gallifreyschild
I am sorry to hear of the loss to you friend's family.
I feel bad that these things happen and it makes me cry to find out about them.
I'm not being on topic, I know.

Of what use are human emotions like love and hate to an infinite being?

You may as well ask this question of humans. The answer is as true for us as it is for God. Love is the right thing to do. We survive by choosing what is best for our future sons and daughters. We protect and provide. We nurture and defend. This is love. Apart from love, you have steal, kill and destroy. God called it from the beginning. Pride is one side. Humility and reverence for life is the other side. God is at the top of what can be achieved for the good of all.

Like I said in an earlier post, we fell. From where were are not informed. Satan fell along with His angels. We are free to assume that we are both here on earth to regain what was lost. Faith, Hope and Love is the obvious answer. If you examine our situation apart from the Bible, you get the same answer.

Here is the same answer without the Bible:

We find ourselves on a planet and we are not sure how we got here. We must learn to live with love for our fellow man or we will destroy ourselves. Love is the key to making the world a better place.

The Bible and our situation match. The Bible is a mirror with no flaw in the reflection. This is the truth we can hang a hat on at the end of the day. God is faithful and able to show us how to read the reflection. If you only look at the surface and the waves, you miss the ocean that is there to be explored.

Originally posted by ZeroReady
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Of what use are human emotions like love and hate to an infinite being? Love, hate, fear, these are chemical reactions taking place inside your brain. They serve a biological purpose specific to our way of life. Does a god really need to love? Or hate? In trying to understand an infinite being with our finite, human way of looking at the outside world, and constructs such as language and emotion, we'll never understand something infinite.

God is "ALL".
No such thing as good or bad, just different perspectives of experience.
God loves all, as God is the creator of all.
God does not adhere to any one religion and is not found inside a church.
To find God, you don't have to go anywhere, as he is in ALL of our hearts waiting to be found.

I am sorry to hear of her loss. I have faced many similar situations myself. I attended a funeral of a coach I loved yesterday. It is never easy, no matter the age or circumstance. Hope is what God offers. I cannot speak for His reasoning behind the laws of entropy and decay. I cannot tell you why He allows evil except that we can only know love if it exists.

God was there with you. He is never anywhere else. You are asking why He didn't stop the loss in the first place. I cannot answer why the child died but I do know where the child is right now. Anyone can love others here on earth. We all love someone no matter who we are. Believers and nonbelievers experience the same pains in life.

Apart from faith, there is no hope beyond this life. Why did God set it up this way? That is a question He will need to answer for Himself. The best answer I can give is that this life is temporary for our benefit. We all understand that we will eventually die but we may never know until tomorrow what benefit our lives served today. God offers us a place to live forever. Forever is without end. What else can He do besides require our love in return? We can all give endless answers to that question, but God is sovereign and I expect He is greater than me in reasoning.

We cannot take anything out of this life with us except those we love. That's His requirement. I will always give Him the benefit of the doubt. He demonstrates His love. That's all we need. Again, sorry for the loss.

Faith leads to hope by God's love. 1 Corinthians 13

Originally posted by Gallifreyschild
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

My best friend is a mechanical engineer who makes tins cans that stores food so Britain may store food and eat to live, his wife is a nurse and has dedicated her life to making people better or helping the terminal cope better and talking to their families to ease the pain. Last week I went to the funeral of their 10 day old baby. WHERE THE FCUK WAS YOUR GOD THEN?

reply to post by Paul47

If you do not worship Jesus then God will surely send you to Hell because you can not earn you're way in Heaven which is exactly why Jesus came to be a Savior to those that would believe. God above all things is Just and Holy. There is no law God has to follow but his ways are set by his character, which is completely righteous. As for your pride that you could stand up to God fearlessly? Well it says all nations and tongues shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. And trust me all people WILL bow wether willingly by the grace God has given us or the knee caps will be broken of those that oppose. God is righteous no matter how horrible things are on Earth because HE created it and there is nothing you can claim as your own, giving you absolutely no room to complain. It's all a gift from God and he chose to send us a savior when he didn't have to. Satan and the angels that rebelled can not be redeemed. Romans says that God created both objects of wrath as well as grace. Meaning anyone who has faith and worships God is forgiven and receives eternal life showing his Great mercy, while the disobedient and unfaithful are the objects of wrath storing judgement upon themselves their entire lives, and on judgement day when he condemns those people it is a an example of his Great justice. So if you think you are a "good" person you are deceived as its written our greatest acts are as filthy rags before God. If you oppose God the absolute truth is you are proud and unwillingly to turn from your sinful and self worshipping ways. If you have a different notion of God, it certainly isn't the fundamental and biblical God of both the New and Old Testaments, rather just a mere creation of your own mind.

Jesus delivered the message in Luke 10. He said love God and love your fellow man. That's it.

Well it says all nations and tongues shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. And trust me all people WILL bow wether willingly by the grace God has given us or the knee caps will be broken of those that oppose.

You say that God will force you to love Him. Not true. You have free will. The choice is yours. Love for your fellow man and love for God comes with experience in life. There are no humans that do not recognize love.

1 Peter 4:8

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

The determining factor in faith is finding the love within ourselves. Many places in the Bible shows that God is only after helping us reveal our own love. If we refuse to show it, we make that choice. Each person can know themselves how much love they possess.

Originally posted by hxc408
reply to post by Paul47

 

If you do not worship Jesus then God will surely send you to Hell because you can not earn you're way in Heaven which is exactly why Jesus came to be a Savior to those that would believe. God above all things is Just and Holy. There is no law God has to follow but his ways are set by his character, which is completely righteous. As for your pride that you could stand up to God fearlessly? Well it says all nations and tongues shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. And trust me all people WILL bow wether willingly by the grace God has given us or the knee caps will be broken of those that oppose. God is righteous no matter how horrible things are on Earth because HE created it and there is nothing you can claim as your own, giving you absolutely no room to complain. It's all a gift from God and he chose to send us a savior when he didn't have to. Satan and the angels that rebelled can not be redeemed. Romans says that God created both objects of wrath as well as grace. Meaning anyone who has faith and worships God is forgiven and receives eternal life showing his Great mercy, while the disobedient and unfaithful are the objects of wrath storing judgement upon themselves their entire lives, and on judgement day when he condemns those people it is a an example of his Great justice. So if you think you are a "good" person you are deceived as its written our greatest acts are as filthy rags before God. If you oppose God the absolute truth is you are proud and unwillingly to turn from your sinful and self worshipping ways. If you have a different notion of God, it certainly isn't the fundamental and biblical God of both the New and Old Testaments, rather just a mere creation of your own mind.

delete mods

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
The Problem of Evil is a good one and that goes with that story I was telling the other day about the Baptist church I went to and asked a volunteer about why there is a Satan.
I told her to look up "problem of evil" on Wikipedia. I doubt she ever did.
So, you don't like the solution I gave to it, earlier on this thread?

reply to post by SuperiorEd

God demands that we love Him and others. Since we are others to God and God is others to us, we must love both God and others, including ourselves. God must love Himself as well as others with the ultimate love possible.

No, you don't know this. Where's your evidence that God demands this?

You can't extract human emotions from a deity that you can't prove exists; it's just conjuring - That's all it is.

Now what about the the problem of evil. And perhaps a more refined epicurean paradox:-

God exists.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
Evil exists (logical contradiction).

en.wikipedia.org...

Now you may think the OP was a great challenge but there have been many Apologetics (e.g. Christian apologetics) posing arguments for the existence of God; and even providing reasons to believe:

Take "Pascal's Wager" - en.wikipedia.org...

Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician, and physicist Blaise Pascal that even if the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a rational person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

Compare that wager to the "Atheist's Wager" - en.wikipedia.org...

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

Nice challenge but my criticisms, in conclusion, would be this:

To claim a deity exists is one one extraordinary claim; to claim to understand the deitys mind is an entirely separate claim.

What basis do i have but your word of a "loving" deity? Yyou cannot prove the deity exists; And you would be defending a deity who created suffering; death; astronomical destruction, parasites, cot death, exstinction.

So back to the original paradox:-

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Epicurus

Another dilema, and perhap a favourite of mine is the: Euthyphro dilemma

The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro: "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)

The dilemma has had a major effect on the philosophical theism of the monotheistic religions, but in a modified form: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Ever since Plato's original discussion, this question has presented a problem for some theists, though others have thought it a false dilemma, and it continues to be an object of theological and philosophical discussion today.

Peace.

reply to post by jmdewey60


What's your solution to it?

This is my criticism of the "Problem of Evil" We foolishly assume that the Christian (or any other abrahamic) deity is benevolent; and scripture shows them to be otherwise; Hellfire anyone? Eternal damnation?

I am a theist, not an atheist.

I can't imagine anyone can sail beneath the stars a thousand miles from any man-made light and not feel a greater power exists.

But I do not believe in your version of a god as portrayed in your bible.

As another poster pointed out, you make so many assumptions and unsupported fiat statements that we respondents should feel free to ignore your guidelines and post as we will; we are the followers of the fallen, et cetera.

Your bible was written by men, and rewritten hundreds of times over, and then cherry-picked by the powers that be to convey their agenda to the common serfs and slaves in their era, and affirm the God-King concept that said the pope of the church of Rome, and later, that royalty were the chosen spokesmen of God.

God did not make man in his or HER own image; another preconception that ascribes the male sex to God, when women are the bringers of life in to this world as they alone bear the children of our species and even the phrase "Mother" Earth has survived from our wiser pagan past.

Man made God in his own image, reflecting all the faults and prejudices of mankind at that point in our development.

In your bible, God behaves like a spoiled psychotic child or a crackhead parent:

Love me and me only, or I will see you burn in a lake of fire forever. Show your love of me by killing your child. See these two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah? Because there are some freaky people there, I will kill everyone there the good and the evil alike.

Et cetera.

Then there is this greatest hit from the Old Testament: Adam and Eve and the Tree of Knowledge. It is like a parent pointing out the one cabinet with the drain cleaner in it to a toddler, and telling them not to investigate or drink it.

A responsible parent would have child-proofed that cabinet. A responsible God would never have placed it there in the first place.

My biggest laugh is "Jesus died for our sins"

Pray tell what sins were they? And how did we commit them before we left the womb? I believe in reincarnation too, so do not try to flash back to a past life infraction: How did I commit a "sin" before my origin birth>?

You actually have a point with your followers of the fallen angels idea.

Lucifer actually mean lux fair; bringer of light.

Human mythology is full of Gods who were punished by their peers for imparting knowledge to humans. Prometheus et cetera.

If there was a singular omnipotent God; why would SHE be upset when her creations exercised their minds as she made them?

The answer is: the bible is toilet paper and no path to God at all.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


none of that statement changes the fact that this supposed omnipotent being allegedly created everything along with Satan and his willful spirit. he knew it would happen and he therefore did it intentionally. however this is just a philosophical debate for myself i outgrew those old parables and fairy tails when i outgrew Santa and the Easter bunny.
all this means is that when this imaginary event happened at the hands of this unsubstantiated super being, that it was just so..and made exactly to his design, perfectly. and the world we have today is because he intended it to be as it is. thus god approves of all the pain and suffering done in his name throughout history by all "god based" religions.