French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

I believe all countries should provide country integration laws and classes. Basically telling people, "hey, you can have your culture and religion. However, you go by these rules(that means you can't burn or chop the heads off your wifes even if you say the quoran allows it), respect everyone else that lives in the country(which means you can have your own house and backyard but you dont own the public roads. And no raping the women walking down your street just cause they don't have a veil on), learn the main language and use it in the workplace (meaning no mo spanish in the McD's kitchen), you will at least minimum stand for the flag if an event requires it, etc.

That is if we want to actually have the people in our countries. Personally I say that if anyone of them has three strikes of causing trouble, deportation(this is logical to me). Just fly over the border and boot them all off the plane without a parachute(this is what I know wont happen but how I feel about it).

Originally posted by mr-lizard
How is it oppression.

You're asking me how it is oppression to tell a woman what she can and cannot wear? What about the women who WANT to wear them? They are being disallowed. They are being oppressed. It's just another form of oppression.

And no... I quite like short skirts, although i hasten to add, your wife would probably be jailed in Saudi for wearing short skirts.

It's worthless to argue with you. As I said earlier, more and more, if people disagree with something (abortion, gay marriage, burqa wearing), they have no problem supporting laws that ban it. But if they agree with something (prayer in school, recreational drug use), they rebel against government encroachment. You support government oppression of the people. There's no other way around it.

I don't have a wife. What happens in Saudi is none of my business. I'm an American. I go by OUR laws and OUR Constitution.

Or does your logic only work one way?

My logic works.

People should be allowed to wear what they want where they want when they want.
But then Again this is France so who knows.

reply to post by mr-lizard


It's not about political correctness in fact I am probably the least politically correct person on the planet.

It's about individual freedom, freedom to make choices of preference that no aren't necessities but make life more enjoyable for the individual.

I don't want to be told how to live.

I don't want to be integrated into a society.

In fact I was kicked out of school permanently at the age of 14 because I resolutely rejected the process of being integrated into a society.

As a result I have arguably developed into one of the more formidible independent thinkers.

If I haven't hurt you then you should have no beef with me.

In reality all this is about beefs with people who haven't hurt anyone but just the vague notion that they might based on the the notion that they are different, and because they are different they aren't as predictable, and because of the fear that because you fear those who are different and would like them not to be, that they too must be wanting to keep you from being different than them.

Live and let live people, stop worrying about what the other guy is doing and wearing and worry about being yourselves and finding a quality life that you can enjoy.

If you really believe that a woman wearing a burka down your street is preventing you from enjoying life, then you are simply looking for a scapegoat to transfer the problems that are really causing you from enjoying life which are in reality...

1. Too many laws and too much government control
2. Too many big corporations and corporate control and policies
3. Lack of Economic Opportunities because of too much government control and corporate monopolies
4. Too much agitiation by ALL the religious
5. Lack of personal responsibility and not wanting to step up to the plate to challenge the government and corporations.

People aren't focused on the real problem they are focused on the symptoms and it's your inability to focus on and effectively deal with the real problems that have led to you believing that the vissible symptoms of a problem are the problem.

All you are arguing for is slapping an other band aide on a symptom to keep from seeing it, the problem that caused it sill remains though and still effects you in countless other ways vissible and not vissible.

Sure I will grant you, it is easier and you are likely to have better success picking on a woman wearing a burka than picking on the shadow government and the corrupt politicians of your own and corporate titans, but at the end of the day in a world without burkas you are still going to be just as screwed and angry and frightened as you were in a world with them.

Enjoy the sugar pill!

Remember to brush your teeth!

I suppose this is a hard core logical position for practical reasons.

In this day and age - - - I can not support face covering of anyone (except outside weather wear).

Religious/Cultural or otherwise.

You're asking me how it is oppression to tell a woman what she can and cannot wear? What about the women who WANT to wear them? They are being disallowed. They are being oppressed. It's just another form of oppression.

So where do you draw the line then? I think you have no real understanding of this issue at all, you've obviously read none of the links i've posted and you have probably never even looked at the issues of feminism, sexism and oppression in the Islamic culture. Please do some research, as you're not making a good issue here. Go and read some books, better yet go to France and see it first hand, get some experience on the issue and come back and we'll debate.

This is an issue that reaches beyond the issues of a minority, which have no problem abandoning the burqa in primarily muslim counties, yet seem incessant and demanding when they arrive in a western culture. You seem to have no real knowledge of the issue though, so you instead parrot and repeat what others say and pretend its your own opinion.

If you're so concerned about liberalism and the oppression of minorities then I suggest you research the feminist aspect of Islam and the 21st century movement of progressive liberalism in European culture.

It's worthless to argue with you.

I disagree. If you take a step back from your own concrete rooted 'opinions' and actually listened to what i'm trying to say, I think you'll find the culture and knowledge to be a very refreshing, interesting and unique spin on the situation.

As I said earlier, more and more, if people disagree with something (abortion, gay marriage, burqa wearing), they have no problem supporting laws that ban it. But if they agree with something (prayer in school, recreational drug use), they rebel against government encroachment. You support government oppression of the people. There's no other way around it.

And by your logic, you're a sexist, oppressive, intolerant, uneducated, ignorant person who has no desire to actually learn anything, but instead insult those who try and teach you a few things that exist outside your Americanised way of thinking.

I don't have a wife. What happens in Saudi is none of my business. I'm an American. I go by OUR laws and OUR Constitution.

Your constitution isn't worth anything in this debate. This is a French issue. Did you see me bringing English politics into this debate? No you didn't...

Try harder next time and do some reading, you might just learn something.

My logic works.

Apparently not.

I've said all I can really say on this topic that springs up from time to time.

But I will never consider the 'right' to wear the burqua as some sort of righteous crusade for individual clothing liberties. It's like fighting for the freedom to be a slave.

Discard the burqua and make the men wear blindfolds if the purpose of the burqua is to not have women tempt men with their evil, sexual physical form.

You're the horndog with the personal hang-ups. You deal with it, IMHO.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

What happens in Saudi is none of my business. I'm an American. I go by OUR laws and OUR Constitution.

And I guess in this case, France is going by their laws. Problem solved.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

It's about individual freedom, freedom to make choices of preference that no aren't necessities but make life more enjoyable for the individual.

Like the French people FREELY made the decision to not alienate women in their society.

I don't want to be told how to live.

Neither do the women who get told to cover up by their husbands.

In reality all this is about beefs with people who haven't hurt anyone but just the vague notion that they might based on the the notion that they are different, and because they are different they aren't as predictable, and because of the fear that because you fear those who are different and would like them not to be, that they too must be wanting to keep you from being different than them.

Did you read any of those links i posted? What about the gang-rapes or beatings?

Originally posted by AshleyD
I've said all I can really say on this topic that springs up from time to time.

But I will never consider the 'right' to wear the burqua as some sort of righteous crusade for individual clothing liberties. It's like fighting for the freedom to be a slave.

Discard the burqua and make the men wear blindfolds if the purpose of the burqua is to not have women tempt men with their evil, sexual physical form.

You're the horndog with the personal hang-ups. You deal with it, IMHO.

The truth is Ashley D half the people arguing against this are arguing for the right to be a slave...

"If they become fully integrated into our society"

Which is a nice way of saying learn to think and do as we do to be slaves to it like we are, even though you have lived your whole life thinking and living differently!

It is saying in essence, you are free only if you are exactly like us!

I will let you in on a little secret that probably is not so secret, there is no one exactly like proto, so there is no 'us' that I feel better about people being incorporated into in a process where they are 'free' to be just like me or else.

A rose is a rose by any other name.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

What happens in Saudi is none of my business. I'm an American. I go by OUR laws and OUR Constitution.

And I guess in this case, France is going by their laws. Problem solved.

Looking at past examples of the same issue i.e banning of burqa ; one would say that French has just opened a can of worms and France can expect burqa wearers to increase in numbers in oncoming years .

How is the problem solved ?

Laws against Islam sounds pretty good.
Do Judaism next

Originally posted by Annee
I suppose this is a hard core logical position for practical reasons.

In this day and age - - - I can not support face covering of anyone (except outside weather wear).

Religious/Cultural or otherwise.

That'll be the fear factor making you think like that, we've managed to survive over a thousand years of the Burqa but now it's waay too scary, even though a nudist could pack a kilo of c4 up their kiester, I hope I haven't just started a campaigne for government seals on our arses, may be the TSA could be on hand for the opening of seals when a visit to the lav is called for.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by AshleyD
I've said all I can really say on this topic that springs up from time to time.

But I will never consider the 'right' to wear the burqua as some sort of righteous crusade for individual clothing liberties. It's like fighting for the freedom to be a slave.

Discard the burqua and make the men wear blindfolds if the purpose of the burqua is to not have women tempt men with their evil, sexual physical form.

You're the horndog with the personal hang-ups. You deal with it, IMHO.

The truth is Ashley D half the people arguing against this are arguing for the right to be a slave...

"If they become fully integrated into our society"

Which is a nice way of saying learn to think and do as we do to be slaves to it like we are, even though you have lived your whole life thinking and living differently!

It is saying in essence, you are free only if you are exactly like us!

I will let you in on a little secret that probably is not so secret, there is no one exactly like proto, so there is no 'us' that I feel better about people being incorporated into in a process where they are 'free' to be just like me or else.

A rose is a rose by any other name.

What a load of rubbish. Do you see any other cultures disputing French law?

Or have they all been assimilated into this 'slave way of thinking' - have all the chinese suddenly lost their culture because they choose to live in France? No... they haven't...

I think you're running out of arguements.

reply to post by mr-lizard



Mr Lizard


Issue is with those women who CHOOSE to wear this garment .

what really cracks me up are the people who are upset by this......

Most of them are people in the US who have issues with anything religious and want to change it......

IE. It cant be Christmas , it has to be Happy Holidays.........

We cant have a cross up, because it might infringe on peoples rights not to look at a cross.....

LoL yet a country has decided to make it illegal to wear a this headress and they are outraged......

Why is it any expression of religion HERE is offensive to you, but when you feel someone elses right in another country to express their religious freedom is infringed on you are upset?

Lots of pandering.........

Its amazing that people cant see their own hypocrisy

Originally posted by SpaceFoetus
Laws against Islam sounds pretty good.
Do Judaism next

What law against Islam?

This is an issue with an item of clothing that has no connection to Islam, besides cultural association.

Get your facts straight.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This simply opens the door to the government regulating one more thing, how you can dress.

So out of fear, and jealousy, and prejudice, so called freedom loving people, support an assault on one more freedom, simply because in this particular case it's a freedom that they have no need for themselves.

What extremist nonsense. Western countries have a public culture where we can see each others faces it is an important part of inter personnel communication. That includes the hoodie brigade by the way. If anyone wearing a hoodie goes into a shop they will be asked to remove the hood or leave the shop. However, go in with a burkha and be asked to leave there will screams of racism!!!!

This is to do with respect for western cultural values. The Burkha is a symbol of male oppression of women. And please don't dig up quotes by Burkha wearing women saying its "their choice". I can find just as many quotes by battered wives expressing support for their husband....before they escaped the control.

Muslim men have been caught wearing Burkhas to escape the police so it is clealry a security risk that is not respected by those muslim men.....How Ironic!!!!

Originally posted by 23432
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

Mr Lizard


Issue is with those women who CHOOSE to wear this garment .

Do you actually believe they choose to be 100% covered from head to toe? Have you ever been to an Islamic country? I have... I've been to a few. Guess how many burkas I saw in India? None... Yet it's second highest religion is Islam.

What about Turkey? None...

Egypt. None.

UK... I won't even go there, as observations are now considered racist. Seriously some people need to get from behind their computers and actually go and see the world, you might just learn something.

reply to post by mr-lizard

Like the French people FREELY made the decision to not alienate women in their society.

So how is telling specific women specifically what they can't wear not alienating them?

Neither do the women who get told to cover up by their husbands.

Maybe they shouldn't have married that husband, but the truth is if there is a husband alive who doesn't tell his wife to do somethings I will show you a cuckhold.

Did you read any of those links i posted? What about the gang-rapes or beatings?

Isolated random occurences do not make for sound logic.

There are child molestors in Miami where I live so should every male in Miami be castrated.

There are drug addicts in Miami where I live so should every one who lives here be given daily drug tests?

I gaurantee you what ever isolated occurences are in those links that no I did not read you will find similiar occurences in society after society, religion after religion.

What you are arguing for is collective guilt by association.

You don't like it when someone implies you are guilty of something through association, so why would you want to hold everyone else in a another culture guilty of something only a very small percentage of it does.

The truth is if Islam was as scary and horrible as some try to make it out to be they would have beheaded you all by now and their women would have all committed suicide.