French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

For possibly the only time in my life I will say this with the greatest amount of sincerity, good will and admiration.

Vive La France!

I only hope that we follow your lead very shortly, but unfortunately I doubt any of our self-serving and spineless politicians, of all political persuasions, would have the strength of conviction or public spiriitness to pursue the implementation of such a policy here.

Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Dear Proto,

You have no clue what you are saying or writing about. You talk about repression when you don't even know the facts or truths about it. I have met and talked to many Muslim women who, behind closed doors, discuss the repression they suffer on a daily basis. You write your opinions eloquently, you please with your prose, yet behind it all, you miss the point, you go off half cocked on a subject you have no idea about.

I have nothing more to say to you.

Regards,
T

Doesn't matter whether you have or haven't, religious freedom is religious freedom.

They are free to seek a divorce, Islamic Law is quite liberal when it comes to women seeking divorce.

What about all the women in abusive marraiges that are married to non-muslims, who aren't even religious who stay in bad marraiges for one reason or another?

What should we do to liberate them?

Where does the ball you want to start rolling end?

More importantly where does the power of the government you are giving to roll the ball end rolling the ball.

Open the door to the Government becoming the decider of all things and pretty soon it will be deciding all things and with over 600,000 codes here in the United States it already is.

Doesn't matter how many childesh insults you throw in or face palms I see an inherent danger in giving government such powers and while you might not agree with my opinion I for one feel it needs to be stated.

The attempt at insult only goes to show that someone is thinking emotionally and not rationally and that's how the Government gets people to assign it additional powers it will no doubt abuse in time like every other power it is given.

Winning a battle that leads directly to losing a war is not winning anything.

Originally posted by torqpoc
reply to post by 23432

 

Dear 23432,
Thank you for your response, you raise an interesting point. The reason I state France will "always" be a Catholic country is simply that the French will, I believe, not allow the Islamisation of the country. It isn't fact, as I can't really make that kind of statement as fact, call it a personal opinion.

Why worry you ask? I kind of explained why in my post, but simply put if a country continues to allow the wearing of the Burqua and Sharia law, eventually people will have to start worrying because then it will become a huge cultural problem, let's put religion aside there for the moment.

As I stated in my earlier post, the ban on the burqua is, from my understanding, more about it's reason, it's implication. It isn't required in the Qu'ran, it is only a secular interpretation of the Qu'ran which demands the wearing of the burqua of it's women. It is all about the subjugation of the female gender, nothing else. Sadly a lot of women who wear it are so brain washed and under control they believe, steadfastly, that it's their "right" to wear it. Ultimately at some stage someone needs to stand up and say no, for their sake even if they don't realise it is for their sake. Do we continue to allow something which symbolises the oppression of women? That is the real question here and the real point.

Regards,
T

Dear Torqpoc

I understand that the ' Arabisation ' of the French Culture is not desireable to natives .

I have muslim friends in France and if you looking at them ; you wouldn't know that they are not native French .
In other words they are succesfully entegrated into a main stream French culture .

Both of my muslim friends are also worried about the rise of so called ' Islamisation ' too .

What I am trying to say is this ; France is a secular and laicist country and this ' Law ' actually makes a mockery of the central tenet of the Republic .

Life , Liberty , Justice for all by all means ; unless one is a muslim and wearing a burqa .



See the contradiction ?

The issue of burqa being a cultural problem , well , yes it actually is a problem but by creating a law to outlaw such a cultural practice is not the way to go forward imho .

Burqa is a cultural tradition rather then a religious one .

I know girls who were as hot as a girl can get and yet decided to wear the burqa out of their own choosing .

When I asked them why would they wear such a garment then they would reply by saying it is religioun that ordered to cover themselves .

As long as there are girls out there wanting to wear the burqa , I am afraid it is not going to be an oppression of females issue .


That is the point where society at large is forcing an individual to change the way they are dressed .

Can you imagine , retrospectively , what the future fashion makers will think ?

A garment was outlawed in France .

An outlawed garment in France is an oxymoron in action at it's best I am afraid .

Of course there are women who are forced to wear the burqa but a point is in need of being made here .

Those women who are forced to wear this garment against their will are actually oppressed and there is no argument about that at all .

The argument is that there are women out there who will wear a burqa willingly and they will do so under the principle of life , liberty and justice for all .

That is where the issue is at .
It is a female garment choice and if it is treated as such , it looses all it's political power .

And out of 600 million muslim females I wonder how many actually wears it day to day ?

It is a choice , treat it as such and there will be hardly any political problems .

Cultural problems yes but that is inevitable due to historical French connections to North Africans .

Banning only makes it more popular is the lesson I have learned .


Kind Regards

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
As a female I cannot and do not accept that a woman should have to hide her feminity due to male insecurity and dominance.

I agree. But if someone else wants to do it, it's none of my business. It seems more and more, if people disagree with something (abortion, gay marriage, burqa wearing), they have no problem supporting laws that ban it. But if they agree with something (prayer in school, recreational drug use), they rebel against government encroachment.

Our personal feelings about women wearing a burqa are one thing. But the government dictating what a person can and cannot wear is quite another. I'm always disappointed when I read about support of this law, even though I used to support it myself.

I used to support it because of banks, etc. If people are moving in public, other people and the authorities should be able to tell who they are, right? Because if a crime is committed, then people can ID the perpetrator. That's a reasonable stance. But then I realized that this law is like gun control laws. How many bank robbers and other people out to cause trouble or commit a crime are going to obey this law? They aren't. Just as criminals aren't going to obey gun laws.

The only reason to support this law, as far as I can see, is a desire to oppress Muslim people in France. If there is another good reason, I'd love to hear it. But I don't agree with a government oppressing anyone. So I cannot support this law. It's contrary to freedom. I don't know how much personal freedom means in France, but it means a hell of a lot to me.

Enough with the apologetics trying to defend Islam under the cover of individual freedom!!!

You can use all the vocabulary and quote all the rhetoric you want, when the rubber meets the road Islam is a control device that is being used to overrun the moderate Western world under the veil of 'tolerance.'


They will be very tolerant of you as long as you believe exactly as they do, pray exactly as they do, and live exactly as they do. If you do not, they will tolerate your death.

Islam, and in fact, all prosetilyzing religions, must be slowed down. Just look at how big of a hell hole this world is becoming due in large part to religious extremism on various fronts.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!

Bravo France! Thank you for having the courage to stand up to these savages and start to reclaim your national identity. I can only hope that America and Britain follow your lead in this.

P.S.... feel free to call me a racist or intolerant, I'm used to it by now. But I will not allow my freedom to be taken from me by politcal correctness.

Originally posted by fooks
i suppose it is religious?

i was under the impression it was cultural.

are you saying the arab/islamic culture and religion are the same?

good on france, i say.

I don't think there's anything in the Koran about wearing a burka. There are plenty of Muslims who don't wear burkas.

Some people don't realize this but New York has had an anti-mask law on the books for a long time. In 1999 the KKK complained about the law when they wanted to hold a rally wearing their masks and the law wouldn't allow them to do that. It just so happens this law also prevents the wearing of other masks in public like the burka. I don't see how this New York law can be seen as an attack on any one religion, especially since the KKK were the ones complaining about it, not the Muslims.

I haven't read the France law in detail, but if it bans burkas specifically rather than masks of any type in general, that would be my only suggestion to other countries considering adopting similar laws: don't make the law prohibit just the burka. Make the law prohibit masks in general. That way it can't or at least shouldn't be seen as an attack on any one culture. The KKK won't like it either, but, to hell with them, let them demonstrate without masks I say. That's what they're forced to do in New York:

Appeals court allows N.Y. anti-mask law: KKK's free-speech rights are not violated, court rules

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


ProtoplasmicTraveler and 2432

I get what you are saying, ie.. this is a thin end of the wedge to 'control' the general public BUT one thing you appear to both be missing is the Intimidation that wearing a Viel in public brings to those who are not part of that faith or , dare I say want to understand it......

In public, like wearing a crash helmet (not allowed in a bank foir obvious reasons) or a Hoodie (anti social for many reasons) or a scarf around one's face (aka recent protests in London et al) they are all intimidating to the vast number of those law abiding citizens who want to be peaceful and safe.........

You both seem to be looking for excuses to help the minority cause to the detriment of the majority .......

In public, why not have rules...... In private in your own space, home or whatever (where you don't affect others) then do what you want to .....simples..

PDUK

Dear 23432,

Thank you for the well thought out response. I'll take the time to respond to yours.

I don't think the "Arabisation" of France is the issue. Having lived there many years I think it is ingrained in the culture now. The Islamisation is another story, one which I won't even attempt to discuss here, however for the record I have read the Qu'ran.

On to the Burqua issue again and your comments about Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. You're right about the terminology, but when it was "thought" about is another era. The social, political and cultural issues we have today were not around, so .. it's a tangible link to use, but ok let's discuss it.

The liberals will be in uproar at the fact any government dares to oppress a "people" and dictate to them what they can and cannot wear. I don't doubt they will be, they will spout their rhetoric about "it is the beginning of the end" etc.. however sadly I don't think they really are thinking about their emotionally driven desire to defend their "freedoms". Let's make a simple link here for those reading. The wearing of the swastika will end you up in prison in Germany. Are the Germans in uproar at the fact they can't wear the Swastika? I don't think so, yet.. the government dictated to them it was illegal. Similarly in the UK you cannot wear a bike helmet when entering a bank, in case you are intending to rob it. Are all the bike riders in the UK in uproar?

There are Muslim women who wear the Burqua out of choice, you are right. However if you actually find and read the verse in the Qu'ran which discussed this issue, there is nothing within it which states they should be covered from head to foot in a garment which only allows for the eyes to be seen. The practice was born out of a male driven oppressive society. Should we decide to not allow that women to wear the Burqua even if she wishes to? That is the question, and the government of France decided yes.

They chose to because of the far greater number of women who wear the Burqua because they are told to, forced to, by their husbands. Husbands who hide behind a misinterpretation of the Qu'ran to subject their women to abuse, in France. It is entirely within the rights of the French government and French people to make that decision. They did so and with the applause of many people.. and yes indeed our rights will be taken away to rapturous applause, one day, not this day.

If a majority of Muslim women do not want to wear the Burqua but their husbands beat them until they do, who should stand up to defend their rights? Do we continue to hide behind our daily newspapers as women and children are battered, or do we.. as a nation say stop. Today France decided to say stop. I don't think it's quite the same as deciding to invade Iraq or Libia under false pretenses though.. one could argue that where the ball should stop rolling is when something illegal is being done.. I don't think the French government deciding what can and cannot be worn within it's boundaries can be thought of as illegal, yet I am sure many Muslims will try to say it is.

Regards,
T

Well on the brighter side..

Now we get a better look at all those hot Arabic women!

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


One thing that people don't get about the War on Terror is it can't be won, because Terror is an emotion you feel.

So you are scared of women who wear burkas!

Maybe get yourself a gun, or some holy water, I don't know, but they don't scare me.

Terror is an emotion based on fear, and fears are almost always imagined and seldom if ever work out as people imagine.

Postal workers went on a spate of violent post office shootings back in the 1980's leading to the term "Going Postal"

Do you get scared when you see someone in a Postal Uniform?

By your thinking you should.

It is insane to imagine that the Government can keep you from fearing things you chose to fear, in reality the government plays on your fears and is constantly telling us we should be afraid that the threat has never been so grave blah blah blah.

So are we all going to start living our lives by one set of rules that some imaginary person who sets the imaginary standard of what is scary and what isn't decides for us?

What happens then when someone is still scared?

The reality is most people are so safe and so secure and live such boring and dull lives that they have to invent fear for dramas sake.

In this case fear of women dressing differently from a different cluture and race.

Oh boy.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


PT

You raise a good point, FEAR is a manifestation and creation for the purposes of control by those Whom seek TO control.....

My fear is not so much to be scared of a lady with some material over her face BUT more to do with the fact that as a human being, a sentient life form (debatable by some i guess) I personally RELY upon being able to read people, not just from what they say but also from their body language too....

Facial features and signals play a HUGE part in non-verbal communication and as a socialble species my point was that many will find those with face coverings intimidating for that reason................... not because they have a bomb strapped to their chin........

If we, as a race of intelligent humans cannot even try to communicate with each other and put up barriers of all kinds then what hope do we have ????

I support a removal of face apparel in public because it levels the field for all of us to at least
TRY and get along.....

Regards

PDUK

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Of course women in masks and robes don't scare us.

Until they have explosives under those robes. Worst case scenario, but it does happen.

Fearmongering is a very effective tool to use when you want to overrun a country. And as we have seen time and time again, when Muslims don't get what they want, things get destroyed. People get hurt. And the west once again pulls it's best Neville Chamberlain-appeasement impression.

There is no moral high road. There is simply the here and now. And that here and now is a militant Islam theocratic mindset that detests the West and it's idealogies and will stop at nothing until we all 'submit' and convert, or pay the jizya.

Either we stand against the coming tide, or we drown in it.

Originally posted by Freeborn
For possibly the only time in my life I will say this with the greatest amount of sincerity, good will and admiration.

Vive La France!

I only hope that we follow your lead very shortly, but unfortunately I doubt any of our self-serving and spineless politicians, of all political persuasions, would have the strength of conviction or public spiriitness to pursue the implementation of such a policy here.

That is my own thoughts too

But I couldnt possibly say the vi vi vi la la fra fran..... Nahhh... My finger were about to be sick just trying to type that!

reply to post by PurpleDog UK


OK and you need to read a woman's facial expressions wearing a burka why?

Because she might be the one you want to take home to Mom?

Because you need a Muslim model to pitch a product you are selling?

Because you fear that she has nothing better to do that day than blow you up?

Me I like reading bodies, it's one of my favorite passtimes at the legally nude beach here in Miami, can we make everyone run around naked so I can further work on my cellulite crater theories?

The truth is even if you could 'read' everyone walking down the street, how many of them does it even matter that you read?

Like two ships passing in the night your brief chance encounters ends your relationship right there, so what does it matter how you read them?

So you understand where all this stems from the word Virgin originally simply meant not a woman who was chaste but a woman who was not conquered or who had a paramour or signifigant other.

In earths original religions before the Abrahamic rise of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam the Earth Goddess figure and the sexual component of sexuality was heavily empasized.

Sexuality and sex was part of religion and religious ceremonies where a woman enjoyed being a person, a sexual creature, and a mother and was admired and respected for all theree.

Abrahamic religions took out the sex and many who follow ancient esoteric teachings would say that all three religions of Judiasm, Christianity and Islam are false and incomplete religions because of the repression of the sexual/spiritual component.

The Burka is simply designed to prevent men from seeing the wearer as a sexual creature, because in reality though the religions remove the sexual component from the religion you can't remove nature from the human being.

The Burka is a sign of modesty, and that's about it.

Your inability to understand and accept that is a sign of your own individual fears and or prejudices and or bias, and that's about it.

Giving the government the power to regulate dress is not a wise idea.

Ironically the Nude Beach at Haulover is the most peaceful and safest in the Miami-Dade County Beach and Park System which is quite extensive, with the fewest police and emergency calls, fights and disorderly conduct of any beach in the system.

Conclusion people fight over clothes.

What are you upset and fighting over?

Clothes.

Want a real solution step up to the plate and demand all clothing be outlawed!

The emperor and his clothes!

I often wonder why it takes people so long to learn simple lessons.

Drama for dramas sake.

Actors and their costumes.

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Of course women in masks and robes don't scare us.

Until they have explosives under those robes. Worst case scenario, but it does happen.

Fearmongering is a very effective tool to use when you want to overrun a country. And as we have seen time and time again, when Muslims don't get what they want, things get destroyed. People get hurt. And the west once again pulls it's best Neville Chamberlain-appeasement impression.

There is no moral high road. There is simply the here and now. And that here and now is a militant Islam theocratic mindset that detests the West and it's idealogies and will stop at nothing until we all 'submit' and convert, or pay the jizya.

Either we stand against the coming tide, or we drown in it.

School children have been known to shoot up schools, should we outlaw children?

Blacks have been know to shoot whites, should we outlaw blacks?

Whites have been known to shoot blacks, should we outlaw whites?

Cars have been used to deliberately run people over and break through store walls and windows to rob? Should we outlaw cars?

Postal Workers have been known to shoot up post offices, should we outlaw the postal service?

Factory workers have been known to shoot up factories, should we outlaw factories?

Anti-abotrion activists have been known to shoot up clinics, should we imprison everyone against abortion?

All these things happen at a as frequent if not more frequent rate than your fear of women wearing burkas.

These are but a few examples too.

As I said your fear based desire to justify the government intrustion of regulating clothing because you are afraid of certain people you are prejudiced against based on your own fears are prone to sometimes wear that kind of clothing is just going to open the door to the government legislating everything based on fears of people and acquiring unlimited power.

Should you be afraid, well the truth is you know and I know we are all going to die so your fear of your own obvious mortality is very easily manipulated.

Proto on the other hand, not easily manipulated at all.

I hope for your sake some little school girl doesn't take your lunch money today, you should stay home, and lock the doors and hide under the bed, one might you know!

Originally posted by torqpoc

On a security level it is undeniably a good point

So security concerns override all human rights or just those of Muslims, I have more chance of dying when a painter falls off his ladder onto me than from a terrorist attack and want the freedom to cover my face from oppressive cctv cameras if I want to exercise my right to protest, this is a dumb law that will have terrible repercussions.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Proto, I usually agree with a lot of your posts. But i think France are 100% correct in making this decision. If it only affects (at the most) 2000 muslim women out of the 5 million muslim inhabitants, and only THREE people protested and this protects the security and attitudes of the French nation - then i'm all for it.

Unless of course countries like Saudi Arabia start allowing us a little freedom in their countries. Then muslims should adhere to French law.

I would like to respond to several comments, but am a newb and haven't gotten down yet all the tools here and grabbing various quotes.

One thing I'd like to comment on is what I percieve is the split is the difference between the political reason for the law and the reason many citizens back it. I do think that the political tactic is mor elinked to trying to integrate the arab population with the french. The french people, however, do have a certain amount of fear and resentment driving them (and I'll get to that) and also value women probably higher than the Americans do, so are greatly repulsed by the sexism in the arab population. So the people individually will cite the sexist issue... but I think the politicians speak of another issue in private.

As cited, the biggest problems come not from the first generation of immigrants, but the second and third, from whom a new generation of more extremist Islamists has risen. They didn't pass through Immigration, and they drive back to Algeria once a year to buy a new 14 year old wife and bring her here (I know personally men who do this).
Ironically, these new Muslims use their religion as excuse to do many things like that... but they come into my store drunk off their butt to buy beer on the weekend, so they are not strict in all disciplines of Islam.

Though the amazing growth of reproduction does risk taking over the country through numbers alone, it is not the biggest problem. Frankly, I think the french would even, with time, adapt to the religion eventually. My own kid had a moment of considering becoming Muslim.

The problems lies within this refuse to integrate. I do not mean act like everyone and dress the same- I mean we are under violent suppression here! We moved up into a rural area, high in the mountains, because in an urban area, the word got aroudn that I was american. So my children were beaten up by gangs of arabs, our property vandalized repeatedly, my husband and I were harrassed and had stones thrown at us, and our home was bombed twice with homemade bombs. The police told us clearly that they couldn't do anything. The instigators lived in an area of arab population that they do do nto go into, because of the danger. And if an arab kid is arerrested for breaking any law, the rest of their population goes berzerk and takes to the streets and burns cars, so they don't dare arrest any.

I have a small commerce, and live in fear, because the other ones around have been held up by these hoodlums many times! Last year a man was killed in a hold up, then one week later, they hit another and this time the man defended himself and hit one of the criminals with something when they held a gun to his face. The criminal was wounded. The following days, the muslim population hit the streets to protest that the store owner was not arrested for harming the man (either was the man, for armed robbery....). The store owner was eventually facing charges for his defensive action.

My kids watch arab kids tell their teachers what to do in class, and threaten to have their whole neighborhood come get them if they do not comply. And they do.

The french have a socialized medical system and many government aids. The french pay a LOT of taxes, but don't mind because it comes back to them in this form. One of the aids is money given to families with children regardless of their income. It was originally a way to motivate the french to repopulate after the losses of WWII.

So... the arabs live off of that. They have many wives and can make many children each year, recieve money each month per child, and get all medical free, without working!!! They are driving Mercedes and BMW's, without having a job, and living in state- subsidized housing!

The french tax payers are paying for their high life, and taking spit and violence in their face as well. What is happening here has nothing at all to do with the nice polite Muslims in England I've heard described.

I used to be very liberal and when I first arrived here years ago was openly against any racism. I have Muslim friends as well, who are terrified by this movement of young muslims. And even they say that letting them continue this way WILL NOT solve the problem. They are insensitive to the subtilities of peer pressure and tradition that the french use, and only recognize a harsh authoritarian hand. That is why they do not respetc the frnech authority- their own parents were more scary than the french police. Problem is, now they are big adults and their parents are scared of them now too.

Sorry if I sound emotional. I am in the midst of this and it is hard to stay completley neutral in emotion.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


PT,

You are one of the more intelligent and thoughtful posters I've ran across on ATS, and I respect your opinions for the most part.

However, by trying to boil this conversation down into a simple matter of 'clothing' I think you are doing Purpledog and others on this thread a great disservice.

The burka is simply another form of the Islamic religion refusing to assimilate into foreign cultures and instead trying to take them over and institute their belief systems and sharia law in many cases.

We are not afraid of clothing.
We are not afraid of people being different as long as they do not try to make us conform.
We ARE afraid of being forced to assimilate to the beliefs of a minority group of immigrants who come into our already established cultures and try to make us submit to what they want via use or threat of use of force and fear.

The history is there. We see every day what happens when Islam is not obeyed.

Why do so many people feel compelled to call a wolf a sheep?

reply to post by Thepreye


Dear Thepreye,
Taking one sentence completely out of context there i'm afraid. Yes it is a security concern, much like wearing a bike helmet (closed) in a bank. The religious link, or even cultural isn't being discussed here. The authorities fear that the Burqua may be used to hide someone, man or woman wearing explosives, that's it and in that context it is a viable concern, that was as far as I went, so please don't misquote me.

Regards,
T