French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

reply to post by tom502


Plenty of people are against Muslim countries dictating what people wear. I definitely am. It's wrong that woman do not have the freedom to choose what they can wear in those countries.

Which is why it's also wrong if we do it here.

So are you justifying us dictating clothing because they do it in other countries? Or just that we should dictate what only Muslims wear because countries that some of these woman were never even born in do that? Or what? I'm missing your point as to why we are justified choosing what people can't wear when they are minding their own business walking down the street, not in banks or in a job interview.

This isn't about Muslim vs non-Muslim it's about people being allowed to choose what they put on their own bodies.

reply to post by Nammu


We have been dictating dress codes in the west for a long time. No shoes no shirt no service is a classic.

There are valid reasons for restricting extreme forms of dress.

What is wrong is telling people they don't have the right to be offended by the sexist nature of the way Islamic culture treats women.

reply to post by poet1b


Ah but no shirt no shoes no service allows us to not allow someone onto our places of business. I've got no problem if people want to do that with Burquas, that's their choice.

I'm talking about someone just walking down the street, minding their own business.

People have a right to be offended. I'm not saying they don't. But i don't see how them being offended = make it illegal. That's what i've got a problem with. I'm offended with the way lots of people dress but i wouldn't dare stop them from doing it. That's their choice. I'm offended by how women dress all the time. Doesn't mean i wanna ban them doing it.

It amazes me how culturally biased so many people are on this issue.

There are a number of people who operate under the base assumption that Western culture equates to the 'correct' culture.

A perfect example of this is when people argue along the lines of ''they force their women to cover their faces'', without considering the fact that we ( Western society ) force our women to cover up their naughty bits.

Some people in the West may think that the burqa and niqab symbolise female oppression, but then again, some bare-breasted Amazonian, African and Melanesian peoples would probably think that forcing a woman to cover up her breasts is a sign of female oppression.

It's also incredibly arrogant and patronising to assume that the small number of women who are culturally expected to cover their faces are doing so against their will.

If you grow up in an area where it's normal to have your face obscured by clothing, then many of them would feel uncomfortable without having their face covered, just as most of us in the West would probably feel uncomfortable living in a society where nudity was the cultural norm.


If we are to assume that some women are being forced to wear the burqa or niqab against their will, then surely this ban will be counterproductive in helping these women ?

A controlling and domineering husband is hardly going to instruct his wife to remove her face-veil because it's against the law; instead, he'd be far more likely to prohibit her from going out in public as a consequence of this ban, and she would effectively become a prisoner in her own home.


To me, there is a simple, straightforward solution to this issue:
allow people to wear a burqa or niqab if they want to, but prohibit them from wearing one in a setting where other people aren't permitted to cover their face.

That way, you are not restricting what a woman can wear, while at the same time, you aren't bending over backwards to accommodate someone's cultural preferences at the expense of everybody else.

reply to post by Nammu


Actually we do have laws that dictate how people dress. You can't walk around exposing your private parts. You can't wear shirts with obscenities, or hate speech.

There are valid reasons for banning the burqa besides it being culturally offensive. There are safety factors, increased potential for committing crimes, and then there are such considerations that it is a good way for a guy to hide the fact that is wife is 11 years old, or that he slaps her around regularly.

And we should probably write laws that make it quite clear that business owners can refuse service to people who wear clothes that allow them to easily shop lift, or hide their identities.

Originally posted by Tiste
This ban is rediculous. It affects a total of 232 women in France who wear it for religous purposes and is part of their culture...I will be very upset if it becomes an issue here. If it does, and if we are in the business of taking away freedom from people, then I am going to push for bans on sweaty obese people wearing tank tops or going shirtless in public, teenagers wearing their jeans below their butts and Lady Gaga wannabes...this is what is offensive to me.

and please don't equate the Burqa to Muslim women in general, it is only worn by a small sect of Islam from Afhganistan/Pakistan. Many Muslim women do wear the Hadith, which just covers the head but leaves the face uncovered.

edit on 12-4-2011 by Tiste because: (no reason given)

IF the French people want to ban it, it's none of my business (i'm not French). But I COMPLETELY agree that this is a non-issue being trumped up by those with an ax to grind with the entire arab/muslim world.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Nonsense, people have the right to expect their culture to be respected withing their own nations.

If you want to go where people can walk around naked, fine, then go there, but don't expect everyone to give in to your desire to walk around in their neighborhoods naked, or covered from head to toe.

It is ridiculous to claim that people don't have a right to establish norms for their own communities.

And any guy caught imprisoning his wife should go to prison for a long time.

Originally posted by poet1b
There are safety factors, increased potential for committing crimes

The same with scarves, sunglasses, hats, long-sleeved tops, excessive pockets on clothing and hooded tops. BAN SCARVES, SUNGLASSES, HATS, LONG-SLEEVED TOPS, EXCESSIVE POCKETS ON CLOTHING AND HOODED TOPS.

Originally posted by poet1b
and then there are such considerations that it is a good way for a guy to hide the fact that is wife is 11 years old

LOL.

People don't walk around with placards saying ''husband'' or ''wife'' to let everybody know what the relationship is between the man and the woman/girl walking together.

Suppose there is a Muslim paedophile with a burqa-clad 11-year-old wife in tow: how would that be any different to a paedophile walking along with his 11-year-old wife exposing her face ?

Originally posted by poet1bor that he slaps her around regularly.

Scarves, sunglasses and certain types of hats also can disguise signs of domestic abuse. BAN SCARVES, SUNGLASSES AND CERTAIN TYPES OF HATS.

What if a man hits his wife using body-blows ? Solution: BAN CLOTHES.

A matter of time before killings around the world are blamed on this. I am in favour of it, but am concerned how the Islamists will use it for further their agenda Why don't they go somewhere such garments are allowed. When I lived in Saudi, I didn't prance around in a vest and shorts because I was aware it was not allowed and would bring me #. I love a beer down by the lake, here in Kazakhstan, such things are illegal, so I don't do it. On the other hand, I am sick of Islamic bollocks running riot over everything and blaming other things.
These days it seems if you comment on a crack in the sidewalk in an Islamic country, there will be multiple be-headings for insulting the prophet.

Person A: 'Wow, look at the crack in the sidewalk here in sunny Islamabad'

Person B: Remains silent but unsheathes a dagger! Thousands around the world follow suit and the flags of the USA and Israel (even if the comment was made by a non-US citizen or non-Israeli) are burned in unison as a world-wide paranoid propaganda sweep is launched to show crusaders are verbally attacking Islam buy ways of criticizing infrastructure in an attempt to make a Zionist state world-wide as destroy Islam from within.......... Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!...................... (repeat to fade)
Allah uh akbar!!!!!!!!!

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Yeah, if a woman starts wearing a big pair of dark sunglasses on a cloudy day and keeps them on in the grocery store, that would be suspicious! There is a good chance someone will report such a thing. With the Burqa, all is concealed.

If someone's neighbor, who is a bachelor, goes on vacation, returns, and suddenly has a 11 year old girl living with him, might be suspicious. Chances are good that someone will call the police. Cover her up with a burqa, and nobody knows the difference.

Who do you think you are fooling?

A lot of good things have been said on both sides of this issue in this thread. I've read most of them, but admittedly not all.

The problem is that almost nothing is universal. It is true that governments at all levels have way too much power over us and probably 80% of the laws and regulations could and should be done away with. That is not to say there shouldn't be any laws. There is a legitimate need for some.

Invading other countries or deposing the leader of another country is frowned upon with good reason. On the other hand, doing nothing, and allowing a despot to murder and wreak mayhem upon his subjects is surely worse. Sometimes action is more than called for.

Freedom of speech, dress and religion is a very good thing. That does not mean that anything done in the name of religion should be allowed. I personally believe there needs to be more control, and not less, when it comes to religion. Some of the stuff out there is beyond ridiculous. The burka is one of them. The need for Sikhs to carry a small knife every where they go is another.

Opposites can both be true. In this case, there is good reason to disallow something that has a high association with potential for harm and next to nothing of virtue, choice or not. Just my 2 c.

I don't think it is unreasonable to pass a law requiring people to uncover their faces while out in public.

In this day and age where there is a very real and constant occurrance of street crime, child abductions, rapes, robberies, stabbings, shootings and murders, (not to mention terrorism), etc, in Europe, it is becoming essential to require citizens and foreign visitors uncover their faces in public. What is wrong with that?

How would we identify those who commit crimes if we all went round dressed in identical clothing with our faces covered?

If this law manages to achieve only one thing - to identify criminals - it will be for the benefit of law-abiding citizens and foreign visitors, and that alone is enough reason to make this law right and justified in my opinion

Wear your huge black clothing all you want - just leave the mask off while out in public

Originally posted by poet1b
Nonsense, people have the right to expect their culture to be respected withing their own nations.

Some intrinsic components of modern-day Western culture are tolerance, acceptance and furthering people's personal freedoms.

I'm sure that you'd be up in arms if your government was restricting personal freedoms that you enjoyed, yet you are not defending those that you do not approve of.

''Personal freedoms'' is an overused and misapplied term, but in its simplest form, I'd say that it is the freedom to do what you want as long as you do not harm anybody else.

I fail to see how wearing a burqa or niqab harms anybody else.

Originally posted by poet1b
If you want to go where people can walk around naked, fine, then go there, but don't expect everyone to give in to your desire to walk around in their neighborhoods naked, or covered from head to toe.

I have no wish to walk around naked in public ( I don't want to make the other guys jealous ), but the point is that Western society forces men and women to dress in a certain way, yet people in the West will criticise other cultures for ''forcing'' people to also dress in a certain way.

Originally posted by poet1b
It is ridiculous to claim that people don't have a right to establish norms for their own communities.

Communities do have the right to establish norms, but they should be based on logic and reason, rather than arbitrary cultural customs.

There is no genuine logical objection to somebody wearing a burqa or niqab, other than culturally biased prejudice.

For example, on very cold winter days, I wear a thick hooded jacket, zipped up to the top, and wrap a scarf around my face, with the uppermost part of the scarf covering my nose. The only part of my body that is exposed are my eyes.

Why then, should I be allowed to walk around covered from head to toe, but a woman wearing a burqa or niqab shouldn't ?

Originally posted by poet1b
And any guy caught imprisoning his wife should go to prison for a long time.

Yes, the same as any guy forcing his wife to wear a particular kind of clothing or forcing her to act in a certain manner.

These are all examples of domestic abuse and are already against the law, which means that the argument against the burqa, on the grounds of a man forcing a woman to wear it, doesn't hold any water.

reply to post by poet1b


It may be culturally offensive to you but not to me. I am not offended by someone minding their own business wearing a sheet.

You make too many assumptions. You assume all these women are beaten, that all their husbands are potential peadophiles, that they're all oppressed.

When is the last time someone committed a crime wearing a burka?

I did not know that you had personally spoken to every burka wearing woman to gather their opinion. Those woman protesting in France willing to get fined or even go to jail seem like pretty strong woman to me.

In fact, see Sherlock Holmes' reply above you cause he (she?) has put it perfectly.

I've been reading the multiple posts and ideas, thoughts, perogatives, ideologies...etc.

Here is my take. I'm a white, lower-income, Canadian Christian male. A W.A.S.P. if you will.

Now that thats out of the way and obviously will be used against me (As my kind TRUELY represent evil according to feminists, atheists, polytheists, vegans, and so on) Half of my heratige is French, half is English/Irish. My God, I hate the idea of all that I have come from, all of my heratige, my family past, dying at the hands of immagrants, who will not accept that they no longer live in a nation that will openly bend over backwards to change their cultural composition to fit the new life they have brought with them. Religious motives aside, yes, I believe the "When In Rome" speal. I argue this point many times. If say I were to move to Russia, Would I demand Russia to accept mine and fellow Canadian immagrants customs? Absolutley not! I have moved to that country in complete understanding that this isn't, in fact, Canada, but Russia, a completely developed nation with their own laws, cultures, and language; and God forgive my folly if forgo the knowladge of this! The same goes for Israel, India, Ethiopia, and so on, these nations were not developed by me, its not my family history, its not mine to manipulate and use against the citizens therin. The whole point of immigrating is to ESCAPE the culture and the problems that the culture that you were in has created! like marinesniper said, being proud of your heratige is one thing, to make others take your lifestyle as your own is rediculous. If you are so proud of it, so in love with what you have come from, then be you off to where you came from. This is exactly why me and my wife wish to move to England, (not that that will remain England much longer the way things are degresing) in order to live the way we are in love with, to be English.

As for the religous aspect, it in fact, does NOT state in the Qu'ran that your face must be covered, your body, yes, your head, yes, but not your face and hands, look for the preaching of the Prophet Muhammed. (I don't like the idea of Islam, and to be honest, it is completely against my beliefs, but they still deserve some respect to their Prophets/God (lest I be beheaded right?))

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Are there any female Mullah's? where are the woman who had a say if their gender are happy to be covered from head to foot in a shroud, There aren't any, it is male dictated.

Women in Saudi Arabia cannot go out unless covered up in black which absorbs heat, women were and still are in some areas of Afghanistan beaten for showing an inch on ankle.

There are many cultural traditions which are unexeptable in the West.

Young girls at Muslims schools have to cover up as part of the uniform, and have to adhere to this rule at all times. They have no choice.

Doesn't the burqa inhibit social interaction? we humans use facial expressions to communicate.

reply to post by Nammu


You make too many assumptions about what I believe. No, not all women are beaten, but far too many women are beaten by men who consider women to be inferior.

Last crime I read about a burqa associated with crime is someone using a burqa to hide a bomb, which they used to blow up lots of innocent people.

Yeah, sure I am going to speak with every burqa wearing woman.

How about you go to a Muslim country where you must dress that way, and then come back and tell us how wonderful it is.

I have bothered to watch a few videos on the subject, and you are wrong.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Nammu

 

You make too many assumptions about what I believe. No, not all women are beaten, but far too many women are beaten by men who consider women to be inferior.

Last crime I read about a burqa associated with crime is someone using a burqa to hide a bomb, which they used to blow up lots of innocent people.

Yeah, sure I am going to speak with every burqa wearing woman.

How about you go to a Muslim country where you must dress that way, and then come back and tell us how wonderful it is.

I have bothered to watch a few videos on the subject, and you are wrong.

I have lived in Saudi, Bahrain, Iraq and Lebanon as well as Yala Province in Thailand. Most women remove it whenever they can, but know that removing it in the wrong place causes #. To me that's oppressive and a signal that a culture should be changed. I also believe that is Saudi they should cover up as the men are too out of control due to huge living restrictions and that changing it over night would cause huge abuse of women country wide.

In France I say, obey the laws, or get fined. Simple. It isn't some draconian law causing untold misery, unless you count the poor lasses at home who get #/shot for disobeying their men, it's reasonable to see that when communities see happy faces, they become happier communities. When they see people in black tents, they lose a bit of that.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

For example, on very cold winter days, I wear a thick hooded jacket, zipped up to the top, and wrap a scarf around my face, with the uppermost part of the scarf covering my nose. The only part of my body that is exposed are my eyes.

Living in Canada I do the same on a cold winter's day. Upon entering any public building, the first thing I do is remove all the stuff from my face; lest they think I am there to rob the place.

What do you do? What does the burka wearing woman do? There is a difference. There are circumstances when/where completely covering the face is simply not appropriate.