Qur'an burning free speech in America?

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
I own a copy of the Qur'an. I have read it. I find it to be holy in no way, shape or form whatsoever. I consider it to be a complete work of fiction and treat it the same that I would a Sunday newspaper. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities. Sorry if my freedom is too much for you to handle. It looks like the fundamentalist Muslims are going to have to adapt to MY freedoms, not me adapting to theirs.

I would hate to burn my Qur'an or ANY of my various copies of religious books or ANY of my books for that matter but I will not let anyone try and bully and intimidate me with threats of violence or death if I do not treat this work of fiction as holy. I will intentionally burn it to ashes and post it on youtube just to show these men of will what will is.

All holy documents including the Qur'an and the Bible are fictional. It's ancient mythology.

Just too bad someone's willing to kill in the name of fiction. That's religion for you.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by The_Seeker
Lets burn the Pastors bible and see how he likes it.
There is no excuse for anyone to burn another cultures sacred documents!!! No matter how much you disagree with it.

I bet you eat burgers...

to think of all the hindu's you are offending by burning and eating their most sacred and holy animal...for shame...for shaaaame...

there is no excuse for you to ever eat beef, as its another cultures sacred animal..no matter how tasty it is!

So, explain yourself and your beef eating ways then...explain why you would eat a cow when you know of its religious significance in india!!!

No I dont. I am vegetarian. I dont buy any products that are animal related or tested.

Originally posted by TheAmused

Originally posted by The_Seeker
Lets burn the Pastors bible and see how he likes it.
There is no excuse for anyone to burn another cultures sacred documents!!! No matter how much you disagree with it.

They do it every day man..
Do you realize how many black muslim's there are in America?
ALOT
and 90% smoke weed.
and 90% use the bible for rolling paper.

In prison that is how you roll a joint ....
Numbers are purely bs of course..but you know dang fool and well the numbers of black muslims in america is high.
and the number of blacks in America who smoke weed is ever higher.
So common sense would tell you muslims burn the bible every day to smoke weed in america lol

That I didnt know

What?
Is there only one copy of these books? There are plenty to go around.
They are paper and ink. It's the arrangement of the ink that has meaning. We can make more of any of them.

This guy made a stupid, yet calculated decision to piss off people.
He'd pass around jars of tarantulas at an arachnophobia convention.

He knows the results of his actions. Crazy people went crazier. and lashed out.
Send him there to apologize in person. But first, a big PR blitz. sell tickets, pay for the war.

Is it just me or do the religious extremists in Christianity and Islam just want to fight each other to death? I see widely read articles on CNN that just breed ignorance and hatred of other cultures and ways of life.

The book burning is protected free speech, but the guy is only doing it to raise tensions. I have to shake my head and roll my eyes. It is highly immature. Why not simply accept you have differences from Islam and leave it at that. Nope, he goes extremist and so the other side is also extremist.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is true with most human behavior. Seriously, sociology has equations that can predict people's behavior that are accurate. The powers that want to cause war are playing these extremists like instruments. You just tweak people one way and they are sure to respond.

See, actually sitting and talking to other people (which is do-able) does not cause the unrest needed for massive war and conflict.

Inciting hatred is not protected by free speech, contrary to popular belief. ALL the fundamental religious nutballs are dangerous, ignorant jerks regardless of whether they are Christian, Muslim or pagan.

Before this jackoff preacher has a chance to "Put Muhamed on trial" and put more innocent people's lives at risk, I hope his god sends someone to 'call him home' and make Florida a better place.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Yes

Originally posted by Ironclad
reply to post by SpeachM1litant

 

I feel people should have the right to do anything under the freedom of speach act..

what a truely stupid thing to say.

anything?

Hell, lets go murder some innocent children and laugh at cancer patients... to proove a point and make a statement ala freedom of speech.

anything??? .... hell, people would be doing alot worse... and what you actualy propose amounts to complete anarchy!

reply to post by DavinciThales


I dont know about the mentalist pastor and his ilk, but in terms of the average Christian, just trying to get through life and help where he can, we do not want war. I fully believe that the large majority of Muslims feel this way as well, but there are different social and political influences on the daily lives of Muslims in the arab world, than there are on Christians in the west.
There is nothing that the media, or any other group or individual can say, or show me, which would make me believe that the majority of Muslims , or Christians, want to fight eachother to death. Personaly speaking, I would rather find every extremist Christian, and beat them to death with a kerbstone for tarnishing the name of a faith that is meant to be based on peace and fellowship, not war and bloodthirst. Xenophobia, hate based on creed or colour, these are not things that a Christian should allow into his life, or within a football pitches distance of his faith.

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant


I apologise beforehand if this has been previously posted, a search has yielded no results. As many of you are aware from the thread posted on ATS, it appears that already, people are advocating limitations to the rights protected in America by the first amendment. To put it blatantly, it makes me feel sick. Yes, burning the Qur'an and any other religous text held in high regard by persons is wrong, but it is protected in the constitution and with good reason. You are already aware the constitution was drafted to protect people from tyrany and safeguard freedom and democracy. It is vital, if you hold democratic principles in a high regard, that we do not allow limitation to free speach now, as it could lead to censorship in the future.

rt.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

i support bible/quran burning, and the racist words too. you know why i support it? not because i am some anti religious anti racial hating bigot, because i support the freedom to say what you want and have freedom of expression in my country. sometimes it's not always in the best taste, but i would die for my countrymen to have that freedom, and im thankful for those who died (in the revolutionary war...) in support of my freedom for this. as far as the killings go because of this? that is out of control of the person who exercised their freedom of expression.

p.s. to those that believe in a powerful god, don't you think that he can defend himself rather than have you act as his hand, such as these killings over the quran burning?

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

There are leaps and bounds of difference between allowing someone to suffer the natural consequences for his actions, and adding additional unnatural consequences.

Since its expected a Muslim may react with violence if you burn their Koran in front of them, making it illegal simply adds fuel to the fire and would make a Muslim even more likely to feel justified in any retribution. If I say for example "Bob, you're mom is a dirty whore." and Bob then punches me in the face. Well, I had it coming, I had to deal with the natural consequences. Making such a thing illegal would only add salt on the wound. People here seem to be saying we should add *additional* (unnatural) consequences in making burning a Koran. Well, as has been pointed out two wrongs never make a right. So you can punish someone for saying something that offends another person.

What is the difference between punching a guy in the face and burning his holy book, when both will be perceived as harm by the victim? Punching a guy in the face is *universally* regarded as harm. Burning their book other hand is entirely *opinion* on whether it is harmful. Not everyone agrees burning paper can be particularly harmful all by itself. So, making laws based on opinions that vary all over the map turns out to be a messy process that spectacularly fails to make much of anybody happy and results in a violation of our rights... a violation of our freedom of speech.

Furthermore, once you set a precedent that offensive words may be illegal, then the government could consider any criticism at all offensive, and therefore illegal. (as has been mentioned by several people already on this thread)

The fact of the matter is unless someone specifically tells you what their motives are in burning a holy book, you are just guessing their motives! Well, our justice system should be based on something more substantial than guesswork!

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant

Qur'an burning free speech in America?

rt.com

The incident has pushed many to question just how far free speech goes in America. If what you say or do causes the death of others, are you free to say or do it? Issues surrounding the US First amendment are becoming more debated. Some feel, the principle trumps the outcome, while others contend free speech must be limited.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Ok let's face it this guy who burned the book is a Di

reply to post by GeechQuestInfo


I would love to see your source that states that North American has 30% percent more murders than in the Middle East. There isn't a chance that's an accurate statement. Maybe If you didn't account for difference in populations. Even then your comment is suspect. I was there in Iraq when Shiites and Sunni's were murdering each other. And firing mortar round into children's school yards. Their "Cleric's are a bunch of warped murdering twisted lunatics.

I also was in Afghanistan and it's even worse. Tribes warring and murdering each other. Making lies against their neighbors so they are detained and their compounds are searched. The Taliban which the people hide and protect. Going around spilling acid on school girls that simply want to learn how to read the Koran. They are a bunch of Cowards that refuse to wear any type of uniform to ensure the people they are trying to in slave will occasionally get shot because they shield themselves with them..

Now that Idiot "Pastor in Flordia has stooped down to their "clerics" level and he's no better than any of them. I'd also like to add notice they decided to protest where the UN was being protected by Afghan soldiers. They would have all got planted if they had tried to disarm a US soldier.

reply to post by Leonidas


?? Christian extremists as violent?

Christian extremists are the ones who follow when Christ says to turn your other cheek when someone beats you on your face.

Christian extremists also take the shirt off their bare backs to help a less fortunate person keep warm.

Oh, there's many more examples i could give of a Christian extremist.

the thing about what's going on here, is you have the New Testament Vs. a people who reject Him as the Son of God.

they know who Jesus is, but they don't believe Him to be the highest authority.
because of this they don't believe Jesus as the New Testament or highest authority of commandments Today.

So while Christians have a high authority where love rules All.. muslims continue to follow the old laws.. which is why you hear all of the stories of muslims pouring acid on wives for suspected adultury and the likes.

Originally posted by SeventhSeal

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
I own a copy of the Qur'an. I have read it. I find it to be holy in no way, shape or form whatsoever. I consider it to be a complete work of fiction and treat it the same that I would a Sunday newspaper. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities. Sorry if my freedom is too much for you to handle. It looks like the fundamentalist Muslims are going to have to adapt to MY freedoms, not me adapting to theirs.

I would hate to burn my Qur'an or ANY of my various copies of religious books or ANY of my books for that matter but I will not let anyone try and bully and intimidate me with threats of violence or death if I do not treat this work of fiction as holy. I will intentionally burn it to ashes and post it on youtube just to show these men of will what will is.

All holy documents including the Qur'an and the Bible are fictional. It's ancient mythology.

Just too bad someone's willing to kill in the name of fiction. That's religion for you.

edit on 6-4-2011 by SeventhSeal because: (no reason given)

The Bible is not fictional, nor is it an ancient mythology, just because you say it is. The prophecies alone in the bible can attest to it's authenticity. As ignorant as the world is today, adding more ignorance doesn't make a statement more accurate. Anyone who says that the Bible is a "storybook for children" either hasn't read the real bible or they are just choose not to believe in truth. The bible's prophecies are thus far, 100% accurate and the rest of the prophecies are coming to pass as we speak. I know you will refute anything i have said her, they always do, but I assure you, it will not matter......my faith coupled with the fact of 100% accuracy of God's word weighs far more than idle antichrist rhetoric. As for the Quran........I'm not muslim, I don't know nor have I formed an opinion. I can feel inside of me....my GOD.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Christians murdering people?? I know an occasional nut will kill an abortion dr. but I would love to see a source in the last 50 years that has a group of so called Christians murdering people because of their religious beliefs. It's possibly but I haven't heard of this happening in modern day society. And the Bible is burnt by all groups of people all the time.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

Do as you wish so long as you don't harm others. That principle is what all law should be based upon. But the tricky part of the law is that some people are harmed for basically no reason whatsoever. For example, in a recent thread the word "ghetto" was used and someone was offended. Their feelings were *hurt*. So in one theory it should be illegal to use the word "ghetto" as a person was hurt by its usage. But there is a problem. Most people are actually not hurt when the word "ghetto" is used. Therefore you are making one rule just to suit a small selection of people at the expense of other people's freedom of speech.

So what do we do in real life? Well, we have made it so that you actually have to do something that is universally regarded as harm before you can be stopped by law. In this way, instead of protecting one man's freedom at the expense of another man's rights (or vice versa), you are attempting to grant the rights that everyone agrees with. Something like murder is illegal in all countries as we universally agree it is harmful, while other things like hateful speech are legal in some countries but illegal in others. Then there are even more controversial subjects than that such as abortion, gun ownership, and burning of the Koran.

So, you could say "since some people believe Koran burning is wrong while others don't, it cannot be made into a law." But there is one more important factor at play which is motivation. If you are aware that someone's feelings are hurt by specific speech, and then you use that specific speech to hurt the person, you are attempting harm. That is clearly a violation of the core principle that you may not harm others!

If someone is using speech specifically for the purpose of harming someone else, then it is fair to use whatever force necessary to stop that harm from taking place. And furthermore after the harm is complete, the verbal attacker should have to compensate the victim for the damage done.

But the big deal of all of this is motivation! If you are trying to tell someone you disagree with their holy book simply to express your own dissatisfaction and not specifically hurt them but you unintentionally hurt them in the process, that is entirely accidental. So now you are back to the opinion issue where in one person's opinion you are doing something harmful and in another person's opinion it is not harmful. So unless they come out and specifically admit to trying to hurt someone through burning their favorite book, the person should no longer be stopped from their expressions.

So, if both the accused person and the alleged victim agree to the definition of harm, then justice is easy. If there is disagreement then justice is a highly complex matter. If I say "your mom is a dirty whore" for what I admit is the express purpose of inciting you to violence, then I deserve what I have coming (to a certain degree only!). In that case if I end up with a black eye or broken jaw then I should lose the right to compensation in court. But if on the other hand I end up near death with ten broken bones, I should have the right to compensation in court because the retribution didn't match the level of provocation which both parties could have reasonably both expected.

But in a case where you have opinion vs. opinion, then only universal principles should apply. A person burning a Koran is not universally accepted as harm. So what should happen when the person burning the Koran does not mean to incite violence? A person who has injured someone for burning a Koran must be responsible for compensations for the damages done in that case. The provocation was completely unintentional and therefore any retribution would be unfair.

So in summary, when people say "inciteful speech should be illegal" I agree but only if the actual motivation of the speaker can be proven (by admission) that the speech is designed to hurt feelings! Only then do you have a proven motivation for harm, whereas otherwise you are just laying down punishments based on guesswork and pitting one person's opinion against another and making an arbitrary decision to enforce on of the person's opinions!

Originally posted by JerryB08
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Christians murdering people?? I know an occasional nut will kill an abortion dr. but I would love to see a source in the last 50 years that has a group of so called Christians murdering people because of their religious beliefs. It's possibly but I haven't heard of this happening in modern day society. And the Bible is burnt by all groups of people all the time.

Are you dense? This is going on in Northern Ireland to this very day. Just because you choose to ignore it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. No religion is more civilised than another when you all reject science.

they burned a COPY of the koran, right?

as opposed to 2 giant buddah 1000yo statues the taliban blew up?

originals, i might add.

karma will be a biatch!



god bless afghanistan, coz allah ain't gonna do it.

Why not. American flag buring in free speech in every Arab country.