Freemasons - I have a few questions.

I wonder if the day ever dawned where people decided that religion had to be banned because it was causing far too much trouble and conflict world wide, would freemasonry survive and adapt? Could masonry continue without the need to believe in a god or would it be driven underground?

Originally posted by RufusDriftwood
I wonder if the day ever dawned where people decided that religion had to be banned because it was causing far too much trouble and conflict world wide, would freemasonry survive and adapt? Could masonry continue without the need to believe in a god or would it be driven underground?

Why would it need to adapt? Freemasonry has nothing to do with religion. Indeed, one does not need a "religion" to have a belief in God.

I'd be the first to say that organized religion has probably done more bad than good. But my relationship with God is mine alone, and is neither mediated nor prescribed by any priest or potentate.

Originally posted by RufusDriftwood
I wonder if the day ever dawned where people decided that religion had to be banned because it was causing far too much trouble and conflict world wide, would freemasonry survive and adapt? Could masonry continue without the need to believe in a god or would it be driven underground?

You seem to be combining "need to believe in god" with "religion." They are not the same thing. Banning organized religion would not be a good thing, because the majority of the churches in any town are full of good people trying to do their best. Still, if they did ban all the churches, it would not stop anyone from believing in their particular God, and Masonry would not be affected.

Now, if the day ever dawned where it was illegal to believe in a God of some sort, then the world would degrade into chaos, and people would live by the laws of the jungle. Masonry would not need to adapt, it would need to step up and serve as a shining example of a good system of morality, and it would be necessary to bring order and civility back to the world.

I partially agree with Josh, far too many wars have been waged in the name of religions, but I don't think banning them is the solution. Masonry would be fine without religion, but none of us would be fine without God.

Freemasonry has nothing to do with religion . Link.

From where masonic all seeing eye came from ?

Actually, it probably originated in ancient India as the Eye of Shiva. From there, the symbol was adopted by ancient Egyptians as the eye of Horus. In the early middle ages, it was then adopted by Christians as the symbol of God's omnipresence, and from there found its way into Freemasonry. Link.

Who is Shiva ?

Shiva is a major Hindu deity, and the Destroyer or transformer among the Trimurti, the Hindu Trinity of the primary aspects of the divine.[2] In the Shaiva tradition of Hinduism, Shiva is seen as the Supreme God. Link.

Who is Horus ?

Horus is one of the oldest and most significant deities in the Ancient Egyptian religion, who was worshipped from at least the late Predynastic period through to Greco-Roman times. Link.

Masonic all seeing eye came from christian religion who adopted it from ancient Egyptian religion and Egyptians took it from Hinduism.

"Freemasonry has nothing to do with religion."

Thought I'd respond to some of the questions posited in this forum topic. I shall attempt to add my contributions to a bunch of different posts in this one post.

I am a Mason. Like the other Masons who answered the Q&A, I too joined to become a better man, learn from my betters, and learn leadership skills so I can make my lodge and my community better. Additionally, I was interested in the brotherhood aspect where good, moral men support and guide each other... to be better.

I've never gotten a job because I am a Mason, nor have I made any financial gain from my membership. It is much better for a man to join the Rotary Club, Chamber of Commerce, Lion's Club, or other local groups to make money. Masonry is not a money-making or power-building platform... and anyone interested in it for that are sure to discover that brotherhood with men you can depend on and that giving to charities and the community are much more gratifying than the pursuit of material wealth.

Like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. As individuals, we all live within the confines of our socio-cultural experiences. Anyone with their own world view (which is everyone) can interpret something different from symbols and parables. The organization and faithful history of Masonry seems to help guide brothers to see the ideal meaning of such symbols and parables; but of course, the individual always has the freedom to choose on his own. Some have entered with their own agenda and have used the limitless opportunities of symbols and parables for their own ends. These are not necessarily the meanings attributed to them by the organization.

There are anti-Masonic organizations and movements that flood the marketplace with disinformation via books and websites. Certainly, they may borrow, re-write, exaggerate, and such from whatever interpretation of symbology and legend that benefits them most. Their aims are to bring down that which they don't understand (given the scary name of 'secret society') simply because they don't understand... and are typically not open to trying. Personally, I find it a disservice that such seemingly legitimate disinformation is so rampantly out there. But then again, a man seeking to better himself and to better understand the world will see past all the muck and mire.

I am a 32nd degree Mason. The degree "level" is nothing more than a notation that I've gone through those experiences (to borrow the word experiences from an early forum contributor). I have absolutely no more power or prestige or higher value over another Mason of any other degree. A 3rd degree brother has the same as a 32nd. Masonry is an extremely democratic fraternity with its own checks and balances... and many different lodges and grand lodges working together to reach harmonious agreement... which takes a lot of hard work.

I laugh at the NWO-conspiracies that claim that the Freemasonry is behind global takeover. It's preposterous. In fact, the democracy structure of Freemasonry gave birth to the democracy of the free world. If only more people understood how to keep democracy alive and well (with constant participation and nurturing), we (as Americans) would be in a better society today... and so would the entire free world.

Unfortunately, there are hoards of people who do not advocate freedom and tolerance. Such people have a vendetta against the fraternity.

As for David Icke, I do read his books and watch his videos. He is dangerous because he presents everything as fact. But I enjoy his work by viewing them all as the parables they really are. He attacks masonry as being this evil empire run by reptilian aliens... but really, I know he's wrong but can see that in a parable form... there is evil out there in the world. He just picks and chooses his boogey man based on his world view and the disinformation he has absorbed. I view all of his Reptilian references as an angry eptithet against whatever it is that's out there that leads to corruption and decay. At the end of the day, MY Christian beliefs kick in and correlate the shapeshifting reptilian allegories to the utter depravity of humans (a result of original sin) and our need for a personal relationship with our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ.

(That's my point of view. Masonry is not a religion. There are certainly brothers of different faiths who have their own interpretations and views. I brought in my personal relationship with Jesus because that's my worldview that explains reptilians... and under Icke's paradigm, there are plenty of Reptilians within the profitable business that is organized mega-church Christianity. But that's another discussion.)

So why do I read/watch David Icke from time to time? Because the real world stuff of how the Fed works and corporations... seems to come from a more paper trail type of place. I enjoy the mental exercise of analyzing the worthiness of his claim and evaluating it based on evidences I can see. About 10% of his stuff leads to something interesting that's worth evaluating for one's self... if nothing else than a mental exercise... to test what I know as Truth and keep that Truth true. Apart from him using the popular boogey men in his mythos, it's a whole lot of fun.

As for a high number of Masons in ATS, I think you'll find us on all sorts of conspiracy sites. I think there are a portion of authentic masons who get an intellectual kick from seeing what ideas are out there and digging deeper into the facts and myths (most importantly to know which are facts and which are myths). Speaking for myself, that is true!

You can find all the secrets of this "Secret Society" in books and websites; however, you'll have to have the insight to distinguish from the real stuff and the made-up stuff... all presented as unquestionable authority. If you're looking for an authentic lodge near you, please consult your state's Grand Lodge. Otherwise, you may find a group operating as masons who are neither real masons nor doing real masonry. Grand Lodges keep an active directory of official lodges.

Originally posted by illuminazislayer
From where masonic all seeing eye came from ?

From God. But why do you have to belong to a religion to believe in God?

I too dismiss the idea that the freemasons are involved with some NWO plot to enslave mankind. For me it doesn't make sense. However, a freemason supporting the fraternity and dismissing some of the theories put forward by the anti-masons doesn't cut any mustard either. After all if you were involved and guilty as charged it's extremely unlikely that you would own up to it is there? That's why these threads accussing the masons of being everything from devil worshippers to NWO never take us any further forward in discovering the truth. Those who hate the masons will always see them as elitists, and freemasons will always, naturally, stand up and support their brotherhood.

Originally posted by RufusDriftwood
After all if you were involved and guilty as charged it's extremely unlikely that you would own up to it is there?

Why? Is it easier to assume that each and every one of us would be dishonest men?

Originally posted by JoshNorton
No, there are no concepts or teachings taught in Masonry that cannot be revealed to others. Sometimes the exact wording we're told to keep secret, but the lessons themselves are the same as you'd find in most religions and many philosophies.

can you please tell me about secrets in most religions , please ? please count them for me.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by JoshNorton
No, there are no concepts or teachings taught in Masonry that cannot be revealed to others. Sometimes the exact wording we're told to keep secret, but the lessons themselves are the same as you'd find in most religions and many philosophies.

can you please tell me about secrets in most religions , please ? please count them for me.

I didn't say there were secrets in religions. I'm saying there aren't secrets in Masonry other than the way the lessons are taught, but that the lessons are the same as you'd find in most religions. Treat each other fairly; don't cheat or defraud someone else; don't take advantage of a friend's wife or daughter; don't gossip a friend's personal business to someone else; divide your time wisely; take responsibility for your actions. These are the things taught in Masonry. They're taught in Christianity and Judaism too. That's what I'm saying.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by JoshNorton
No, there are no concepts or teachings taught in Masonry that cannot be revealed to others. Sometimes the exact wording we're told to keep secret, but the lessons themselves are the same as you'd find in most religions and many philosophies.

can you please tell me about secrets in most religions , please ? please count them for me.

He does not need to tell you any secrets in religion, because they can easily be found if you read the holy book of your choice. They can not be counted.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by RufusDriftwood
After all if you were involved and guilty as charged it's extremely unlikely that you would own up to it is there?

Why? Is it easier to assume that each and every one of us would be dishonest men?

I'm not, just as I'm not assuming you are all whiter than white and honest pillars of the community. I guess what I'm saying is that self praise or self assessment is not worth anything just like the empty accusations and nonsensical rubbish which the anti masons spout Isn't worth anything.
The anti masons would say you protest too much and therefore its a sign of your guilt, while the outraged masons would say they don't protest enough. Unfortunately it's an argument that the masons can't win. Seems to me we live in very strange times where people are willing to believe anything as long as it's told to them in a trendy way...
Me!? I prefer to use my own common sense and draw on my own experiences. I also tend to use that saying, "Live and let live", quite a lot when discussing the masons. If you feel you're getting something beneficial out of being a mason and you aren't hurting anyone I don't see what harm the brotherhood is doing...

reply to post by RufusDriftwood


But here's where the truth is on our side...

IF there were something corrupt in Masonry, even if there were some percentage of mindless sheep willing to go along with it, there would still be a SIGNIFICANT number of members who would, upon its discovery, blow the whistle on it. I'm not talking the one or two kooks who've published "tell all" books. I mean an actual movement of defectors.

I can't argue that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but if there IS something yet to be discovered, still after 300-500 years of Masonry, you can bet that when it is uncovered, the world will know about it from those on the inside.

reply to post by JoshNorton


I agree with you wholeheartedly. There's far too many masons, all from differing countries, cultures, religions, with far too many personal ideals and problems, to get everyone to comply to a cover up. The conspiracy theorists idea rests solely on all masons being brainwashed to conform... Ridiculous!

Religion is not JUST Christian. Satanism is also a cause of many war's. By looking at the shear number of masonic hall's, lodges. ect. in the US alone, it would be hard pressed that all are pure. Just like the churches, they are run by man. And we are not without fail. Faith. Religion is the politics of faith. I've been invited to check out a couple of local halls. It should be interesting. Do any of your halls have open house? Full access? Non meeting night's of course.

Originally posted by jrstock
Religion is not JUST Christian. Satanism is also a cause of many war's. By looking at the shear number of masonic hall's, lodges. ect. in the US alone, it would be hard pressed that all are pure. Just like the churches, they are run by man. And we are not without fail. Faith. Religion is the politics of faith. I've been invited to check out a couple of local halls. It should be interesting. Do any of your halls have open house? Full access? Non meeting night's of course.

I would think that most would be willing to give you a tour. Some have specific open houses, but it's really a case-by-case basis.

Nobody here is saying that every single Mason is a saint. But the structure of Masonry is such that corruption generally can't get very far.

Let's say there's a corrupt lodge somewhere. Because that lodge is member of a Grand Lodge, any other Mason in the same state under that same Grand Lodge is welcome to attend meetings at any other lodge under that jurisdiction. So if you've got a corrupt lodge, any other Mason in that state can attend their meetings without any prior notification necessary. Likewise, that lodge would be visited occasionally by the District Deputy Grand Master, who reports directly to the Grand Lodge. Again, the Grand Lodge system is such that its officers are elected and serve one year terms in their office. So it would be difficult or impossible to game the system from the top for very long.

Basically there are a bunch of checks & balances to keep bad lodges from happening. And, if a lodge doesn't live up to expectations, or is caught violating rules, their charter will be revoked by the Grand Lodge. It happens from time to time...

Originally posted by jrstock
Do any of your halls have open house? Full access? Non meeting night's of course.

Yes, New Jersey holds one every October.

reply to post by raiders247


Ditto... The lower ranking ones are usually really good people while the higher leveled ones up to level 33 know more and more, and the whole freemason idea is acctually a watered down worship of Lucifer. Most of them deny that, they deny being a religion at all and some even claim to be Christians, and lower ranking freemasons aren't particularly devil worshippers or anything, but the higher ones are strictly Lucifer worshippers.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Freemasons argue that they aren't a religion though the upper levels of the 33 are involved with Lucifer

Honestly, I believe freemasonry is nothing but brainwashing good hearted people into joining an organisation that appears to be made up of good but they blindly follow a much darker cause... controlling the good nature that any good human will adopt will lead everyone under the thumb of the Illuminati who decides to follow their fake light in ignorance. Point being--NEVER join a group unless you know EVERYTHING they stand for, and if you're a lower ranking Mason, you won't know because they won't tell you.