Freemasons - I have a few questions.

reply to post by SecretSky


I am not a mod, but in my opinion they are pertinent questions to the thread as it is a precondition to membership to "regular" Freemasonry and it also highlights the differences between the English and the Continental Traditions.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by SecretSky

 

If God created the universe, how was God created? If God was not created but is infinite - why can't the universe also be infinite without a creator?

Again, there are surely more elegant thoughts than my own, but why do we keep attempting to personify God? Why does everything have to have a beginning and an end? Why can't the Universe be infinite, and have an infinite creator? Why can't they be one and the same?

You have already mentioned the idea that we have multiple dimensions beyond these 3 that we experience. Mathematics supports that notion. It is entirely impossible and beyond comprehension for a human to even imagine just one additional dimension. If there could be several dimensions beyond our own, it is futile to even try to imagine where or how those would exist.

Here is my post in another thread about trying to comprehend one additional dimension. It is impossible.

My point is this. "God" does not have to be an entity like a person. It could be that life thread, it could be the eternal consciousness, it could be the universe itself. It could be the "creator" of everything we experience and know, but it does not have to have a creator of its own. It is not limited by the things we are limited by.

If God is the universe itself, then I confess I'm no atheist - I definitely believe in the universe. hehe.

As far as being able to comprehend further dimensions than our 3 spacial dimensions and 1 dimension of time, well as a graphics programmer, I'd point out quaternions
They should be of interest to Freemasons, as they are of a geometric nature and are useful for performing smooth rotations of geometry. They are 4D in nature - and are definitely possible to comprehend, but rather more difficult to visualize. In fact, in order to visualize them it is only possible for us to project them into 2D or 3D....so we can't. You're right.

reply to post by SecretSky


I didn't mean to get you off topic SecretSky. I most certainly was not taking a dig at atheists either. Really, I just liked the post that I referred to and replied with what came to my mind. It is of course an opinion and I believe everyone is entitled to one of them. That doesn't make mine right and yours wrong nor does it make yours right and mine wrong. It's really just an opinion and nothing more. I didn't mean to offend or side track you, I only created a post and meant no harm. I could just as easily edit that out if you feel I've introduced a stumbling block.

Originally posted by SecretSky

This is my biggest issue:
If God created the universe, how was God created? If God was not created but is infinite - why can't the universe also be infinite without a creator?

According to most accepted modern theories, the universe is finite, but expanding. This led to the Big Bang Theory: the universe evidently had a beginning at some finite point in history.

We can think of God as that which was, before the Big Bang. The technicalities of such Being are expounded in the mysteries of the Kabalah, under the names Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur, which are called "negative existence".

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by SecretSky

 

I didn't mean to get you off topic SecretSky. I most certainly was not taking a dig at atheists either. Really, I just liked the post that I referred to and replied with what came to my mind. It is of course an opinion and I believe everyone is entitled to one of them. That doesn't make mine right and yours wrong nor does it make yours right and mine wrong. It's really just an opinion and nothing more. I didn't mean to offend or side track you, I only created a post and meant no harm. I could just as easily edit that out if you feel I've introduced a stumbling block.

Ahhh - no no, I apologise. You're right, everyones entitled to their opinions and beliefs. I didn't mean to sound offended either. I probably chose the wrong wording in my post.
I respect everyones opinions, and I believe debate like this leads us to greater understanding. Cheers for your comments friend!

reply to post by SecretSky

As far as being able to comprehend further dimensions than our 3 spacial dimensions and 1 dimension of time, well as a graphics programmer, I'd point out quaternions
They should be of interest to Freemasons, as they are of a geometric nature and are useful for performing smooth rotations of geometry. They are 4D in nature - and are definitely possible to comprehend, but rather more difficult to visualize. In fact, in order to visualize them it is only possible for us to project them into 2D or 3D....so we can't. You're right.

Exactly my point. So we can't "visualize" them, we can only see their shadow. We can only see the impression made by them. We experience them on a lower level. We are quite literally living in Plato's Cave. If math is correct and there are another 5 or 6 dimensions after that, imagine the complexity. We can't even comprehend the shadows of those additional planes.

The paradigm of our human thought process is flawed. We define things in terms we can experience, visualize, understand. Therefore, we see a Deity from that paradigm, and we seek to define its limitations. We have no idea what limitations a deity might have, or if any exist whatsoever.

For me, I do not blindly follow the doctrines of any religion. I try not to limit myself to those things that I can perceive with my 5 senses. I try to not make assumptions about what I do or do not know. I try to simply live by the several golden rules. I pray often, and I pray for my own peace of mind more than anything else. Many, many times I have just simply felt better after a prayer. Other times I have actually gotten an answer. I have instantly "known" something in my heart and mind (and not always the answer I want). Sometimes my prayers seem to go unanswered, and I am forced to battle through on my own. Regardless, I always start with the prayer, and it always leads me to a solution one way or another.

For me, I don't care if that answer is coming from inside my own psyche, from the tree outside my window, from a robed man on a cloud, or from some formless entity that I cannot begin to comprehend. For me, I just "know" that there is more than what I can comprehend, and I am ok with that.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
According to most accepted modern theories, the universe is finite, but expanding. This led to the Big Bang Theory: the universe evidently had a beginning at some finite point in history.

We can think of God as that which was, before the Big Bang. The technicalities of such Being are expounded in the mysteries of the Kabalah, under the names Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur, which are called "negative existence".

I know that the Big Bang is the 'accepted' model in scientific circles, however some of the evidence is slightly weak in my opinion.

Regarding cosmic background microwave radiation, this youngster has a new theory which can explain it mathematically - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also, regarding the size and expansion of our universe, I find it pretty amazing that every direction we look in, we experience the red-shift of stars expanding away from us. So we're pretty much in the dead center of the universe? I find it too much of a coincidence. I think that our telescopes are currently too weak to see far enough to make big claims about our origins.

Here is one scientific issue with the red-shift which was currently thought to be caused by the expansion of our universe from "Quantized Galaxy Redshifts" by William G. Tifft & W. John Cocke, University of Arizona:

As the turn of the next century approaches, we again find an established science in trouble trying to explain the behavior of the natural world. This time the problem is in cosmology, the study of the structure and "evolution" of the universe as revealed by its largest physical systems, galaxies and clusters of galaxies. A growing body of observations suggests that one of the most fundamental assumptions of cosmology is wrong. Most galaxies' spectral lines are shifted toward the red, or longer wavelength, end of the spectrum. Edwin Hubble showed in 1929 that the more distant the galaxy, the larger this "redshift". Astronomers traditionally have interpreted the redshift as a Doppler shift induced as the galaxies recede from us within an expanding universe. For that reason, the redshift is usually expressed as a velocity in kilometers per second. One of the first indications that there might be a problem with this picture came in the early 1970's. William G. Tifft, University of Arizona noticed a curious and unexpected relationship between a galaxy's morphological classification (Hubble type), brightness, and red shift. The galaxies in the Coma Cluster, for example, seemed to arrange themselves along sloping bands in a redshift vs. brightness diagram. Moreover, the spirals tended to have higher redshifts than elliptical galaxies. Clusters other than Coma exhibited the same strange relationships.

I am not sure if the Big Bang theory is correct or not, it has a lot of evidence, but it does not satisfy me, as it still appears to be created from nowhere, and therefore requires the same leap of faith that believing in a creator god requires.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
For me, I don't care if that answer is coming from inside my own psyche, from the tree outside my window, from a robed man on a cloud, or from some formless entity that I cannot begin to comprehend. For me, I just "know" that there is more than what I can comprehend, and I am ok with that.

I'm in complete agreement - I know there is more than I can comprehend too. From what I observe, our biggest differences in belief appear to be in the terminology we use - especially if we both concede the universe maybe infinite.

But doesn't believing the universe is infinite go against Freemasonry? If a universe has a 'Grand Architect', then at some point it must have been created, right?

Thanks for your answers getreadyalready They're always very humanistic, and make a lot of sense to me.

Originally posted by SecretSky
But doesn't believing the universe is infinite go against Freemasonry? If a universe has a 'Grand Architect', then at some point it must have been created, right?

Not necessarily. Several religions and denominations believe the universe was crafted by God from materials co-eternal ith Him.

Originally posted by SecretSky
I am not sure if the Big Bang theory is correct or not, it has a lot of evidence, but it does not satisfy me, as it still appears to be created from nowhere, and therefore requires the same leap of faith that believing in a creator god requires.

Interestingly, this is precisely why Einstein rejected the theory, even though his own equations pointed to it.

The Big Bang is supposed to have originated in a singularity. According to Einstein's general theory of relativity, there is also a singularity in the center of black holes, with singularities being defined as para-areas where the curvature of spacetime becomes infinite.

If this is true, it is possible that our own universe originated in a singularity within a black hole in another universe. In like manner, black holes in our own universe could be giving birth to new universes.

However interesting, regardless of how many billions of years it takes, it still seems as though its all ultimately finite. Thus the logical proposition of the First Cause, or what Plato called Demiurgos, or "Prime Mover".

reply to post by SecretSky


I am no deity, but I can construct something infinte. I can do it right here in this thread by attempting long division of 22/7. It is useful, important, infinite (as far as we know), and I just made it myself.

I can think of many reasons for an architect to construct something infinite that would also be beautiful and useful. If I can think of it, then the GAOTU probably has more grandiose plans than I do.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by SecretSky
I am not sure if the Big Bang theory is correct or not, it has a lot of evidence, but it does not satisfy me, as it still appears to be created from nowhere, and therefore requires the same leap of faith that believing in a creator god requires.

Interestingly, this is precisely why Einstein rejected the theory, even though his own equations pointed to it.

The Big Bang is supposed to have originated in a singularity. According to Einstein's general theory of relativity, there is also a singularity in the center of black holes, with singularities being defined as para-areas where the curvature of spacetime becomes infinite.

If this is true, it is possible that our own universe originated in a singularity within a black hole in another universe. In like manner, black holes in our own universe could be giving birth to new universes.

However interesting, regardless of how many billions of years it takes, it still seems as though its all ultimately finite. Thus the logical proposition of the First Cause, or what Plato called Demiurgos, or "Prime Mover".

I believe that the black hole singularity is argued against by Hawking's radiation (emitted from the centre in the form of Gamma rays) - but I maybe wrong. I haven't discussed this for a long time

I didn't know Einstein rejected the Big Bag theory for the same reason as myself, but it's nice to know I'm in good company. haha. I will now read up on Demiurgos. Thankyou

Originally posted by getreadyalready
...
For me, I do not blindly follow the doctrines of any religion. I try not to limit myself to those things that I can perceive with my 5 senses. I try to not make assumptions about what I do or do not know. I try to simply live by the several golden rules. I pray often, and I pray for my own peace of mind more than anything else. Many, many times I have just simply felt better after a prayer. Other times I have actually gotten an answer. I have instantly "known" something in my heart and mind (and not always the answer I want). Sometimes my prayers seem to go unanswered, and I am forced to battle through on my own. Regardless, I always start with the prayer, and it always leads me to a solution one way or another.

For me, I don't care if that answer is coming from inside my own psyche, from the tree outside my window, from a robed man on a cloud, or from some formless entity that I cannot begin to comprehend. For me, I just "know" that there is more than what I can comprehend, and I am ok with that.

edit on 5-4-2011 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

I have also had these moments, I guess most people have. I don't think you were implying that you were only having these experiences after becoming a mason?

Slightly off-topic: on prayer - is anyone familiar with Martinus (1890-1981), the danish "philosopher"?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by SecretSky

 

I am no deity, but I can construct something infinte. I can do it right here in this thread by attempting long division of 22/7. It is useful, important, infinite (as far as we know), and I just made it myself.

I can think of many reasons for an architect to construct something infinite that would also be beautiful and useful. If I can think of it, then the GAOTU probably has more grandiose plans than I do.

You remind me of these quotes:
"God invented the integers; all else is the work of man." - Kronecker
"Number is the within of all things." - Pythagoras

Darn - with my interest (and work) in geometry, and appreciation of Freemasons on this thread as well as the main aim of Freemasonry appealing to me, it is rather frustrating to find that my lack of belief in the creation of this universe, and the belief in it's infinite state as a stumbling block.

As I've stated previously, before I started this thread I had only a vague interest in Freemasonry, because of curiosity, but also, to get to know who the Freemasons are (on a human level). In being able to discuss many issues with many Freemasons in this thread, I have found that all of you are very humble and nice people.

Much as I know I could not change your belief, I know that you could not change mine. So, unfortunately, I concede it would be a waste of time, trying to take me and 'make a good man better'.

We are all men first though. Right?
I know I'd treat all of you as equals, whatever your beliefs. On the level, so to speak.

reply to post by pslind69


You are absolutely correct. I had these thoughts and experiences long before becoming a Mason. My beliefs were only reinforced by Masonry and vice versa.

Originally posted by SecretSky
As far as most definitions go, I'm an Atheist. I do not believe in a God...

That definition is pretty weak. I've tousled with some hard core atheists from time to time, perhaps none more hard core than Penn Jillette from Penn & Teller. But I have to admire his stance...

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy — you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.*

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by SecretSky
As far as most definitions go, I'm an Atheist. I do not believe in a God...

That definition is pretty weak. I've tousled with some hard core atheists from time to time, perhaps none more hard core than Penn Jillette from Penn & Teller. But I have to admire his stance...

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy — you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.*

A definition as clear and concise as that is not a weak definition. It does its job quite well I think.
Perhaps it does not define what you consider an atheist - however, it is the only umbrella definition which can be applied to all Atheists.

'You can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do'.
Does having more work to do defending ones beliefs somehow make it more admirable?
Besides, 'proving' a belief is impossible. All beliefs are based upon faith.

I have listed some of the issues I have believing in a God in previous posts. These are not my only reasons - but some of my bigger ones.

Peace

reply to post by SecretSky


I feel like the elephant in the room! If you are truly sincere in your wish to be a Freemason, there is a Tradition that will welcome you which has roots in historical Freemasonry and also will accept you regardless of your spiritual belief or gender. As you are in Europe you would find that Continental Masonry is much larger than it is in the USA and is the predominant form in southern Europe and many Latin American countries. There are Lodges worldwide, male-only, female-only or mixed with English speaking Lodges in most of those jurisdictions. They are chartered progressive institutions, aimed at the moral and intellectual improvement of person and society whether they are accepted by the UGLE or not.

It is interesting to me how the mainstream Masons in USA will twist and turn to get you to define your atheism in words that don't conflict with their Landmarks, which seems a bit hypocritical to me. The reason is clear, because you are an intelligent person, with a strong faculty of reason and capable of critical thought. They think that you would be a good Freemason except for that one little issue, your atheism. The difference between me and them is that I still think that you would.

euobserver.com...

An interesting article although the author is mistaken, we do not invite members, a prospective candidate must ask of their own will.

Best of luck to you, whatever your path in life!

reply to post by SecretSky


I won't be trying to convert you since that is one decision that only you can make and only you would know why you believe what you do. But I will leave you with this. I questioned my belief in God many times after the initial growing up and "believing" what you are supposed to believe, and I came up with a firm yes. I talk to God and he listens and sometimes talks back. Please don't ever give up searching for your truth. But none the less, as long as you are a good person, and help other when you can, you are doing what any man can in trying to leave this world better than you found it. Thanks again for such a nice thread.

Originally posted by no1smootha

It is interesting to me how the mainstream Masons in USA will twist and turn to get you to define your atheism in words that don't conflict with their Landmarks, which seems a bit hypocritical to me. The reason is clear, because you are an intelligent person, with a strong faculty of reason and capable of critical thought. They think that you would be a good Freemason except for that one little issue, your atheism.

I guess I must have missed all of this. Go figure.