Freemasons - I have a few questions.

Originally posted by jrstock
I find it unsettling to kneel before any man of this earth. Is that required in the process?

You kneel before the bible, not before the man. (The man isn't even at the altar when you kneel, so there's no way that could be misinterpreted.)

You know, I am amazed people don't take the opportunity to actually get information that is actually worth it. Instead they continue to bash the masonry without even thinking that, maybe, just maybe by opening your mind, and ask the right questions, you may get information about life. information on how to better yourself as a human being.
The only thing that makes a human being dumb, is to close their mind on a single subject and become stubborn and not accept other possibilities. If every human being thought like this, we wouldn't have computers or any technology. It is thanks to those who think outside the box that we have come this far as a species.

I despise the banks as much as many people here do, but to blindly point fingers without solid proof puts a dent in your credibility. One thing people need to learn is how to Identify the real enemy, and the only way to do that is by educating yourself fully without drawing a conclusion with the first negative thing you see on the net.

That being said, I'll move to another question I have, with regards to getting information that is actually meaningful and express my thoughts from this post.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jrstock
I find it unsettling to kneel before any man of this earth. Is that required in the process?

You kneel before the bible, not before the man. (The man isn't even at the altar when you kneel, so there's no way that could be misinterpreted.)

I don't believe in religion, I believe religion should be eradicated all together and just let ourselves be consumed by peace and love, and believe in God in our own way. God does exist, you can find him inside your heart. In that sense, I will have to disagree with the concept of looking into the bible for information about life. Many of those books have been corrupted and exploited. Not to mention those books have blood on their covers. However, I have been looking for books that teaches philosophy and how to better yourself as a human being without being held prisoner by it's words, like the bible does to people.


The question I have, is there any advanced masonic books with possible advances to human evolution and spirituality that I can get my hands on?

I found this book online, a member here in ats recommended this book.

www.scribd.com...

Is it true this book is related to the freemasonry? if so, is it any good?
Have you read it yourself?
How did it change your views?

Sorry for the grammar, I just woke up

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213
reply to post by AntoniusBlock

 

As Augustus said, that material is fraudulent. That's why I asked for your sources when you first made this claim; this was what I expected.

edit on 4-4-2011 by OnTheLevel213 because: Added the last sentence

What about Morals and Dogma? This is truly written by Pike, correct?

How about the “Permanent Instruction” of the Italian Alta Vendita?

Originally posted by AntoniusBlock
How about the “Permanent Instruction” of the Italian Alta Vendita?

The Carbonari styled themselves after the Freemasons, but had nothing to do with Masonry itself.

There is nothing in Vennari’s booklet, or any other writings on the Alta Venditi, that proves that the group was associated in any fashion with regular Freemasonry, that it had any influence on Freemasonry, that it grew out of the Bavarian Illuminati, or that it continues to exist in any form.*

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by AntoniusBlock
How about the “Permanent Instruction” of the Italian Alta Vendita?

The Carbonari styled themselves after the Freemasons, but had nothing to do with Masonry itself.

Does not Morals and Dogma state:

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

"Masonry is a search after Light." (Morals and Dogma, p.741)

"The doctrines of the Bible are often not clothed in the language of strict truth, but in that which
was fittest to convey to a rude and ignorant people the practical essentials of the doctrine." (Morals and Dogma, p.224),

Originally posted by AntoniusBlock
What about Morals and Dogma? This is truly written by Pike, correct?

Yes, Morals & Dogma are the opinions of Pike concerning the Scottish Rite degree system.

And yes, you're about to go quoting bits of that out of context... Read the full paragraph, and perhaps the paragraph after it, and it might make more sense.

Edit: Too late, you've already quoted without reading the whole thing...

Originally posted by AntoniusBlock
"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

Actually, it states

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.

and closes the chapter with

It is by His uttered Word that God reveals Himself to us; not alone in the visible and invisible but intellectual creation, but also in our convictions, consciousness, and instincts. Hence it is that certain beliefs are universal. The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a Devil, the fallen Lucifer or Light-bearer, Shaitan the Adversary, Ahriman and Tupho_n, as an attempt to explain the existence of Evil, and make it consistent with the Infinite Power, Wisdom, and Benevolence of God.

Pike didn't believe in a Devil. That's purely man's construct.

"Masonry is a search after Light." (Morals and Dogma, p.741)

And now you've singled out the shortest sentence of the longest chapter of M&D... That chapter starts with

GOD is the author of everything that existeth; the Eternal, the Supreme, the Living, and Awful Being; from Whom nothing in the Universe is hidden. Make of Him no idols and visible images; but rather worship Him in the deep solitudes of sequestered forests; for He is invisible, and fills the Universe as its soul, and liveth not in any Temple!

Light and Darkness are the World's Eternal ways. God is the principle of everything that exists, and the Father of all Beings. He is eternal, immovable, and Self-Existent. There are no bounds to His power. At one glance He sees the Past, the Present, and the Future; and the procession of the builders of the Pyramids, with us and our remotest Descendants, is now passing before Him. He reads our thoughts before they are known to ourselves. He rules the movements of the Universe, and all events and revolutions are the creatures of His will. For He is the Infinite Mind and Supreme Intelligence.

In the beginning Man had the WORD, and that WORD was from God: and out of the living power which, in and by that WORD, was communicated to man, came the LIGHT of his existence. Let no man speak the WORD, for by it THE FATHER made light and darkness, the world and living creatures!

and 200 pages later in the same chapter writes

The intention of God was, when He created the world, that His creatures should recognize His existence. Therefore He created evils, to afflict them withal when they should sin, and Light and Blessing to reward the just. And therefore man necessarily has free-will and election, since Good and Evil are in the World.

"The doctrines of the Bible are often not clothed in the language of strict truth, but in that which
was fittest to convey to a rude and ignorant people the practical essentials of the doctrine." (Morals and Dogma, p.224),

Let's put this one in full context, shall we?

For every man's conception of God must vary with his mental cultivation and mental powers. If any one contents himself with any lower image than his intellect is capable of grasping, then he contents himself with that which is false to him, as well as false in fact. If lower than he can reach, he must needs feel it to be false. And if we, of the nineteenth century after Christ, adopt the conceptions of the nineteenth century before Him; if our conceptions of God are those of the ignorant, narrow-minded, and vindictive Israelite; then we think worse of God, and have a lower, meaner, and more limited view of His nature, than the faculties which He has bestowed are capable of grasping. The highest view we can form is nearest to the truth. If we acquiesce in any lower one, we acquiesce in an untruth. We feel that it is an affront and an indignity to Him, to conceive of Him as cruel, short-sighted, capricious, and unjust; as a jealous, an angry, a vindictive Being. When we examine our conceptions of His character, if we can conceive of a loftier, nobler, higher, more beneficent, glorious, and magnificent character, then this latter is to us the true conception of Deity; for nothing can be imagined more excellent than He.

Religion, to obtain currency and influence with the great mass of mankind, must needs be alloyed with such an amount of error as to place it far below the standard attainable by the higher human capacities. A religion as pure as the loftiest and most cultivated human reason could discern, would not be comprehended by, or effective over, the less educated portion of mankind. What is Truth to the philosopher, would not be Truth, nor have the effect of Truth, to the peasant. The religion of the many must necessarily be more incorrect than that of the refined and reflective few, not so much in its essence as in its forms, not so much in the spiritual idea which lies latent at the bottom of it, as in the symbols and dogmas in which that idea is embodied. The truest religion would, in many points, not be comprehended by the ignorant, nor consolatory to them, nor guiding and supporting for them. The doctrines of the Bible are often not clothed in the language of strict truth, but in that which was fittest to convey to a rude and ignorant people the practical essentials of the doctrine. A perfectly pure faith, free from all extraneous admixtures, a system of noble theism and lofty morality, would find too little preparation for it in the common mind and heart, to admit of prompt reception by the masses of mankind; and Truth might not have reached us, if it had not borrowed the wings of Error.

The Mason regards God as a Moral Governor, as well as an Original Creator; as a God at hand, and not merely one afar off in the distance of infinite space, and in the remoteness of Past or Future Eternity. He conceives of Him as taking a watchful and presiding interest in the affairs of the world, and as influencing the hearts and actions of men.

To him, God is the great Source of the World of Life and Matter; and man, with his wonderful corporeal and mental frame, His direct work. He believes that God has made men with different intellectual capacities; and enabled some, by superior intellectual power, to see and originate truths which are hidden from the mass of men. He believes that when it is His will that mankind should make some great step forward, or achieve some pregnant discovery, He calls into being some intellect of more than ordinary magnitude and power, to give birth to new ideas, and grander conceptions of the Truths vital to Humanity.

We hold that God has so ordered matters in this beautiful and harmonious, but mysteriously-governed Universe, that one great mind after another will arise, from time to time, as such are needed, to reveal to men the truths that are wanted, and the amount of truth than can be borne. He so arranges, that nature and the course of events shall send men into the world, endowed with that higher mental and moral organization, in which grand truths, and sublime gleams of spiritual light will spontaneously and inevitably arise. These speak to men by inspiration.

reply to post by AntoniusBlock


here are my two cents

Does not Morals and Dogma state: "Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321) "Masonry is a search after Light." (Morals and Dogma, p.741)

This stumbled me a bit too when I first studied this, but once you get deeper into your study. . .well actually its all very simply
Satan Claims that he like that of "The Most High" Satan wants to be just like God.
His job is to decieve as many humans as possible. Jesus is the true light bearer, the Morning Star
Satan is only a imposter and would WANT To be just like Jesus, ill try and look for the article that explained this more thoroughly.

And ! ANTONIUS BLOCK, did you even bother to read the article before just trying to argue with me?
and did the catholic curch not support things such as the deadly sins, purgatory and other blasphemy things of the nature??

What does Pike mean to you (mason).

Originally posted by jrstock
What does Pike mean to you (mason).

To me he is just another writer.

There are countless amount of books on the craft, each writing about it with their own opinion.

In my state (I think), they give out Carl Claudy's version explaining freemasonry after each initiation (at least after my first degree).

I am sure in other states they give out different authors than Carl Claudy that explain freemasonry . Maybe they do give out the appropriate sections of Pike after each degree.

reply to post by jrstock


Personally, I find Brother Pike to be one of the most literate authors of Freemasonry, and it is unfortunate that he didn't cite the sources of much of the material. I have stumbled across a few by accident that I recognized only because I participated in the ritual. I will add this, in the preface of Morals and Dogma Pike writes,

"The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment."

I really like that Pike continually states that each Mason is free to believe as he will, he doesn't present the work as doctrine.

Originally posted by fordrew
In my state (I think), they give out Carl Claudy's version explaining freemasonry after each initiation (at least after my first degree).

This is no longer the offical booklet given out, if your lodge is still handing them out it is only because they have a surplus.

Originally posted by OnTheLevel213

Propoganda Due was declared irregular (illegitimate) by the Grand Orient of Italy in 1976, a full five years before the extent of their corruption and political interference was known. Freemasonry is not a police force or a government; beyond expulsion, I'm not sure what could be expected of the GOI.

I hope that you will understand that I am not harping on this issue because I intend for you to recognize my order as regular but I repeat irregularity doesn't equal illegitimacy. Recognition is the result of politics between Grand Lodge jurisdictions. The Grand Orient of Italy are a very good example of this, they are regarded as irregular by the UGLE but are recognized as regular by the GLs of most US states. The UGLE withdrew recognition of the Grand Orient of Italy for the following arbitrary reasons.

1) failing to register all its lodges and members with the Italian government, 2) ties to unrecognized and irregular grand lodges, 3)irregular practices, and 4) interference by appendant orders. However, subsequent correspondence made available to grand secretaries around the world discussing these charges in greater detail reveal many of the charges to be either unproven or less serious than they first appear.

You will notice that two of the charges leveled against the GO of Italy were "failing to register all its lodges and members with the Italian government" and "ties to unrecognized and irregular grand lodges" which in fact by failing to register and their continued recognition of the GO of Italy most US states are also in violation!

THE GOD CONSPIRACY THE POLITICS OF GRAND LODGE FOREIGN RELATIONS

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by fordrew
In my state (I think), they give out Carl Claudy's version explaining freemasonry after each initiation (at least after my first degree).

This is no longer the offical booklet given out, if your lodge is still handing them out it is only because they have a surplus.

Aww tartarsauce, I feel cheated out now because I did not like reading Claudy at all. They gave out Claudy at the lodge I received my degree and then they did give him out at my home lodge.

reply to post by fordrew


My Lodge also provided Claudy's pamphlets for each degree. I found the first explaining how to prepare for initiation as an EA especially helpful to me. It's too bad information isn't usually provided to each candidate before initiation and after each degree anymore.

Originally posted by maestromason
I guess I will leave this forum on this note. I do not believe in eMasonry/eMasons(nor shall I ever)...that being people who get online to discuss "light", for light is not to be discussed verbally(nor printed, cut, carved, painted, ect) but to be put to work, there is a reason for the LODGE and the BENEVOLENT works that we accomplish when we all meet on the square in THE LODGE.

THE LODGE is where I meet MY BRETHREN under the celestial heavens to walk as men amongst men on the pavement to perform great works. If you have not sat next to me in a LEGAL LODGE then YOU ARE NOT MY BROTHER! I need not repeat that, for any BROTHER of mine knows what that means!

Sincerely,

.:Bro. M. A. J. - Ecclesiastes #120, F. & A. M.
"A faithful friend is a strong defense, and he who hath found such a one hath found a treasure" - Eccl 6:14

Don't go away angry Brother, I don't ask you to call my Brother but I am obliged to call you such. We are not discussing the secrets of Freemasonry here on the board, which as you know are the modes of recognition. I have been forth-right about my affiliation and I am not trying to sneak into your Lodge, and although the doors of mine are open to you, I am not trying to tempt you into mine either.

Come back, I am sure that you would enjoy the free exchange of ideas here and I for one certainly enjoyed your responses thus far.

reply to post by RisenAngel77


Your question about the Kobrin seems to have gotten lost in the mix. It isn't at all related to Freemasonry as the Brethren will attest. It appears to be a fabrication of Glenn Kimball's, who was the author of "Wisdom from India" and "A Letter from Jesus".

Originally posted by santjime
reply to post by AntoniusBlock

 

here are my two cents

Does not Morals and Dogma state: "Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321) "Masonry is a search after Light." (Morals and Dogma, p.741)

And ! ANTONIUS BLOCK, did you even bother to read the article before just trying to argue with me?
and did the catholic curch not support things such as the deadly sins, purgatory and other blasphemy things of the nature??

The article on the hoax text? I did read some of it and have refrained from commenting about that text anymore.

As far the things which you've claimed about the Church: the seven deadly sins are largely a literary concept and aren't fundamental to Catholic moral theology. The Church has always and continues to believe in purgatory. That is a fundamental tenet of the Catholic faith.

Since you say that all are equal in the lodge - why is there someone sitting in a fancy chair overseeing the ritual or whatever medieval playact is going on?