Freemasons - I have a few questions.

reply to post by AntoniusBlock


I am a confirmed Catholic and a mason. I don't know what my standing in the church is as I haven't asked. I don't agree with most organized religions on a lot of topics, so I found myself in a void spiritually. Masonry is disliked by the church for the wrong reasons. Because it negates control, it is feared. Masonry teaches that everyone is equal, every religion, every belief. That is not conducive to making sure all the 10% goes directly to the church. I am sure I am a bit jaded on that topic and that is my problem with churches. But masonry should not be even a factor with the church as it has very little to do with it, other than reinforcing the stories that are taught in the bible. There is no worship of anything, there is no laws being broken, legal or of the church. We are not here trying to convert anyone, only to answer questions with truth rather than slander.

Originally posted by network dude
I don't agree with most organized religions on a lot of topics, so I found myself in a void spiritually. Masonry is disliked by the church for the wrong reasons.

I was the same way. It all, to me, revolved around guilt.

Do not do this on Fridays or you will go to Hell.

Make sure you do this before bed or you will go to Hell.

Do not do this in bed or you will go to Hell.

Etc., etc., fire and brimstone, etc.

There is no Hell. Religion should not be about guilt. Or control.

Originally posted by pslind69
Since you say that all are equal in the lodge - why is there someone sitting in a fancy chair overseeing the ritual or whatever medieval playact is going on?

Because he's been elected to do that job by the other members.

Originally posted by pslind69
Since you say that all are equal in the lodge - why is there someone sitting in a fancy chair overseeing the ritual or whatever medieval playact is going on?

edit on 5-4-2011 by pslind69 because: (no reason given)

In any institution someone has to be in charge, or else all is anarchy. The head of the lodge is elected by the members to hold that position for a term of one year. That doesn't make him better than us, it just makes him more responsible for our collective actions while he's in office. He becomes, among other things, our lodge's representative to the state's Grand Lodge.

Unless you've always been self employed, I'm guessing every place you've ever worked has had a boss, right? Structures of order aren't a bad thing. Lack of such structures are anarchy, and not terribly conducive to getting things done.

Edit: To add another metaphor, if there are 30 people on the bus, only one can be driving at any time. With any luck, everyone else agrees on who's behind the wheel, and hopefully, even if he's never driven so many passengers at once, he has at least passed his driving test and knows the rules of the road.

I have another question for the Freemasons...

In order for Freemasonry to teach itself effectively, does it require the 'Supreme being' to also be a creator of our universe?

For example, in Buddhism - there is no specific teaching (as far as I know) of creation of the universe/world or otherwise. Would Buddha count as a 'Supreme being'? If not, I assume there are no Buddhist Freemasons?

I myself am an atheist (I am not against anyone having differing beliefs, and I believe in doing good for all), but it seems statistically unlikely that we are alone in this universe. It also seems statistically unlikely that we are the most intelligent beings in the universe. I therefore find myself open to the suggestion that there are more intelligent beings than us in existence, and their intelligence would be 'supreme' to me (as a mere human).
Would this count as a 'Supreme being'?
Howabout if I didn't believe they were responsible for the creation of any worlds or universes, would they still be 'Supreme beings' as far as Freemasonry is concerned?
This 'Supreme being' would not be a God as far as I'm concerned, just a more advanced and therefore 'supreme' being than us humans.

Just a genuinely curious question (and possible loophole for atheists with open minds who see the good in the Freemasons).

reply to post by SecretSky


I think you might fall into the agnostic category not atheist. That is if you aren't against the idea that at some point you may decide there is something out there. It would be very interesting to find life on other planets, then find out that they had some sort of belief in a higher power.

Originally posted by SecretSky
In order for Freemasonry to teach itself effectively, does it require the 'Supreme being' to also be a creator of our universe?

To be a Freemason requires an acceptance of a Supreme Being / Creator.

For example, in Buddhism - there is no specific teaching (as far as I know) of creation of the universe/world or otherwise. Would Buddha count as a 'Supreme being'? If not, I assume there are no Buddhist Freemasons?

Im pretty much follow Buddhism and still believe in a Supreme Being. But I also believe in Supreme Being of Buddhism. Contradictions only come up if one sees things extremely narrowly like an Atheist or Christian would.

Originally posted by SecretSky
I have another question for the Freemasons...

In order for Freemasonry to teach itself effectively, does it require the 'Supreme being' to also be a creator of our universe?

Yes, Freemasonry recognizes the existence of a Grand Architect of the Universe.

For example, in Buddhism - there is no specific teaching (as far as I know) of creation of the universe/world or otherwise. Would Buddha count as a 'Supreme being'? If not, I assume there are no Buddhist Freemasons?

Some Buddhists believe in the existence of God, while others do not. Therefore, it would depend upon the individual.The historical Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, would not qualify as a Supreme Being because he was a human mortal, like the rest of us,

I myself am an atheist (I am not against anyone having differing beliefs, and I believe in doing good for all), but it seems statistically unlikely that we are alone in this universe. It also seems statistically unlikely that we are the most intelligent beings in the universe. I therefore find myself open to the suggestion that there are more intelligent beings than us in existence, and their intelligence would be 'supreme' to me (as a mere human).
Would this count as a 'Supreme being'?

No. The term "Supreme Being" alludes to God in Freemasonry.

reply to post by network dude


Hmm - I certainly consider myself as more of an atheist than an agnostic, because I do not (cannot) believe in any God or creator.

I am however open to the possibility of discovering the existence of other beings with higher intelligence than humans. This seems scientifically plausible to me - after all, our universe is expanding based on current data, our telescopes are seeing further and further (and pushing our estimated size of the universe up every time their quality improves), new stars and planets orbiting them are discovered everyday and with the sheer scale of the numbers involved, I find the probability that there are other life forms with higher intelligence than humans likely.

Does this make them Gods? I don't think so. Given that they would be the most intelligent being known to man upon their discovery, it would make them "Supreme beings" (to humans).

But Gods? Is the most intelligent person on this planet a God? If it's DNA was different than a human, would that then make it a God? For me - it wouldn't. Just a 'supreme being'.

Originally posted by SecretSky
This 'Supreme being' would not be a God as far as I'm concerned, just a more advanced and therefore 'supreme' being than us humans.

I'm going to have to limit my response to this one, at least for now, because I'm running late.

I tend to think of it from the logical point of view: of all the things that could exist in this or any multitude of universes, there must be one that is the ultimate, the supreme, by some arbitrary scale of measure. Whether it's the biggest, the smartest, the strongest, whathaveyou. Likewise, there's a beauty and rhythm to many things in the cosmos that suggest a pattern or design at work... the so-called "sacred Geometry". Things that make no rational sense, like pi or phi, but keep showing up again and again at the micro- and macro- scales. One could argue that such a design was created with intent. If so, then the entity whose intent that was could be considered the "Grand Architect", for lack of a better term, of the Universe. He's Supreme because he had the power to shape the universe to his will, and because he had that power, he was also, by definition, the creator of that design.

OK, now I'm REALLY late, but one last thought...

EVEN if our entire universe is nothing but a culture grown in some higher being's petri dish, then God must be the underpaid grad student who didn't sterilize his equipment well enough.

reply to post by JoshNorton


I am familiar with Phi - it is quite interesting. It does show up in a lot of places. Here are some I can think of:
Bee-hives. Flowers. Human limbs. Tree branches. Veins/Arteries/Capillaries. Sea shells. Facial proportions.

It is my belief that this value in life forms shows up very frequently because it is an ideal value which has evolved through natural selection of the mechanisms controlling the duplication of our DNA. Of course - why it would be ideal is up for debate.

Maybe as you believe, there is a Grand Architect at work - and that number was beautiful to him. I can't say I believe that - but I respect that other people might.

I am familiar with the beauty of geometry (I'm a computer graphics programmer); things like fractals show up in nature and maths a lot. I use fractals to generate mountain ranges, coast lines and natural looking landscapes as well as the textures of marble, rock, snow....

I definitely see the beauty in geometry. I also see the beauty in the human values which Freemasonry mostly represents.

It's a shame that my own beliefs are at odds with Freemasonry. I really wished I could believe, and I have tried to push myself. Belief is a very funny thing. If I show a colour blind person a red sign, they might swear to me that it was green. They believe it is green. They see it as green. In much the same way - I believe there is no God.
Perhaps I am blind, or perhaps I was wrong. Or perhaps it really was green.

I do respect all other beliefs though, and am open to them, but not convinced of any. Please do not be offended by this post. I am really tolerant of all beliefs, and I even wish I could believe. I know belief is a sensitive topic, so I'll just leave it at that.

Wishing good for all,
SecretSky.

Originally posted by SecretSky

I am however open to the possibility of discovering the existence of other beings with higher intelligence than humans.

As am I.

Does this make them Gods?

No. God would be that which existed before anything else, the Ain Soph and Holy Aged of the Kabalah. If life exists elsewhere in the universe, then chances are there are alien species that are more advanced than we. But no matter how advanced they are, they didn't create themselves!

reply to post by SecretSky


Another question for some of the Masons who are responding here...
Now, I want to explain that this is for my own curiosity, not to attack or entrap someone into giving answers I am looking for...I am not looking for a specific answer, but rather the opinions of individual Masons here on ATS. It should also be noted that I do not hold the opinion of the few Masons on this forum to be the voice of freemasonry, but rather, are the sole interpretations of the individual.
It is a common theme amongst "Truth" seekers that the Pyramid with the eye above it was, or eventually became, a Masonic symbol. Is this true?
It seems to be the general consensus with the Masons responding on this thread that Freemasonry is not involved with the Illuminati, or the powers that be, or the evil doings in this world (for the record, I have no reason NOT to believe the individuals who believe this...)
Since the Pyramid and eye logo is on the American One dollar bill, is it safe to assume that the Masons here do not believe that that symbol is Masonic? Or is it a Masonic symbol that was stolen?
What are the opinions of the Masons here regarding that symbol.
I'm quite certain it originates from ancient Egypt and the worship of Ra....but I don't really KNOW 'cause I wasn't there.
I'm not saying I believe it is Masonic, or Illuminati, or anything for that matter. Symbols, regardless of their supposed meaning, are always up for interpretation by the observer. I had the eye of Ra symbol (without the pyramid) just show up in a dream I had once, before I'd seen it in real life. But I don't believe I'm Illuminati. So when I saw that symbol, it was to have it's own definitions to me, to be interpreted by me in my life according to my understandings. Essentially I am saying that what a symbol means to one person, may not apply to the next.
I have also "heard" (so I don't know if it's true) That there is a lot of Masonic symbology hidden in the works of Stone Masons; for example, in old Catholic churches.Supposedly they are alchemy symbols, and can be used to communicate certain things amongst those who understand the symbols. My disclaimer: I don't know if this is true, they are only things I have "heard". And the usage of these symbols, if they exist and if they are used, do not imply the purpose is evil. I am asking the personal opinions of the Individual Masons reading and responding here on ATS.
Thank you all for your ideas.
Peace and One Love

Originally posted by Scorpitarius
It is a common theme amongst "Truth" seekers that the Pyramid with the eye above it was, or eventually became, a Masonic symbol. Is this true?

The All Seeing Eye is a Masonic symbol. However, the pyramid with the eye above it is not.

Since the Pyramid and eye logo is on the American One dollar bill, is it safe to assume that the Masons here do not believe that that symbol is Masonic? Or is it a Masonic symbol that was stolen?

The symbol on the Great Seal was developed by non-Masons. Freemasons do not consider it Masonic.

I'm quite certain it originates from ancient Egypt and the worship of Ra....but I don't really KNOW 'cause I wasn't there.

Actually, it probably originated in ancient India as the Eye of Shiva. From there, the symbol was adopted by ancient Egyptians as the eye of Horus. In the early middle ages, it was then adopted by Christians as the symbol of God's omnipresence, and from there found its way into Freemasonry.

reply to post by SecretSky


An Atheist can never be made a Mason. It is required that you believe in "one" "ever-living" god/deity. Believing in an entire race of more intelligent beings would not count.

However, I also believe in a lot of Buddhist and Shambala teachings, and that does not make me an Athest. I never call myself a "Christian" because I don't believe Christ is the only way to the father. To be a Christian, one must believe Christ is infallible, and since he is infallible, his words must be true, and since he said, "no one gets to the father, but through me," I cannot be a Christian. I love a lot of Christ's teachings, but I cannot relegate every other religion to hell.

I believe in one, everliving God, I don't know his/its/her name or structure or motivation. Perhaps we are all a part of that God as in some spiritual teachings. Perhaps when I pray, I just tap into a greater consciousness that includes myself as part of it. It doesn't matter how I define that God, or if I define it at all. I believe there is more than just a carnal existence, and therefore I am not an atheist.

Now, more importantly, I do not believe a true atheist could ever be trusted or taken at their word, and that is the reason for the Masonic requirement. Without some belief in a greater existence or purpose or connection to other living beings, how can one be anything more than a carnal animal? If a true atheist, believed that all of creation was a cosmic accident, and that the existence here in this physical realm was all that there was, nothing before, nothing after, then why would they be limited by any laws of man? I wouldn't be. As a human, and an apex predator, I would live like the king of the jungle! The only thing that keeps me civilized is my belief in a spiritual connection to every other living being, and a purpose to improve myself during this existence, so that my spirit may continue afterwards.

I will never believe that civilized people are true atheists, or that true atheists are civilized people,
*******and thus, I would never participate in the making of an atheist a Mason.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Thank you for your response.
May I ask, in your opinion anyways, what the all seeing eye symbol represents when used in Masonic Lodges? I've noticed many here have mentioned the Christian origins of Freemasonry, is it essentially the omnipresent eye of God....when used as a Masonic symbol, I mean?
I am very interesting in discovering how this symbol was originally combined with the pyramid, and what the initial interpretation of this was, to whomever designed it. (I'm going to research this a bit) Do you think it is a New World Order symbol, when used on the dollar?
Thank you again;
Peace and One Love

Originally posted by Scorpitarius
I have also "heard" (so I don't know if it's true) That there is a lot of Masonic symbology hidden in the works of Stone Masons; for example, in old Catholic churches.Supposedly they are alchemy symbols, and can be used to communicate certain things amongst those who understand the symbols.

Operative Freemasons were anonymous to the world but "signed" an individual mark known to the brethren of his lodge. If a Mason from his lodge saw his mark, he knew who had done the work. These may have had alchemical meanings, but I doubt they were uniformly and necessarily so.

Originally posted by Scorpitarius
May I ask, in your opinion anyways, what the all seeing eye symbol represents when used in Masonic Lodges? I've noticed many here have mentioned the Christian origins of Freemasonry, is it essentially the omnipresent eye of God....when used as a Masonic symbol, I mean?

Yes. There is also an esoteric interpretation that comes from the Indian origin of the symbol, namely, that it alludes to the Sahasrara Chakra.

I am very interesting in discovering how this symbol was originally combined with the pyramid, and what the initial interpretation of this was, to whomever designed it.

The symbol of the pyramid was introduced by William Barton, and was inspired by the pyramid that was already on the continental currency before the Revolution. The idea was to make it unfinished, representing the United States, which would continue to evolve. The eye was placed there as a symbol that God's grace was needed for the undertaking.

You may find this of interest:

www.greatseal.com...

reply to post by Scorpitarius


Here is the wrong answer. The following is a complete hoax, from William Guy Carr's 1956 book Pawns in the Game.

INSIGNIA OF THE ORDER OF ILLUMINATI THAT ILLUMINIST JEFFERSON MADE the REVERSE of U.
S. SEAL
The above insignia of the Order of Illuminati was adopted by Weishaupt at the time he founded the Order, on May 1, 1776. It is that event that is memorialized by the MDCCLXXVI at the base of the pyramid, and not the date of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, as the uninformed have supposed.

The significance of the design is as follows : the pyramid represents the conspiracy for destruction of the Catholic (Universal Christian) Church, and establishment of a “One World”, or UN dictatorship, the “secret” of the Order; the eye radiating in all directions, is the “all-spying eye” that symbolizes the terroristic, Gestapo-like, espionage agency that Weishaupt set up under the name of “Insinuating Brethren”, to guard the “secret” of the Order and to terrorize the populace into acceptance of its rule. This “Ogpu” had its first workout in the Reign of Terror of the French Revolution, which it was Instrumental in organizing.

It is a source of amazement that the electorate tolerates the continuance of use of this insignia as part of the Great Seal of the U.S.

“ANNUIT COEPTIS” means “our enterprise (conspiracy) has been crowned with success”. Below, “NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM” explains the nature of the enterprise : and it means “a New Social Order”, or “New Deal”.
It should be noted that this insignia acquired Masonic significance only after merger of that Order with Order of Illuminati at the Congress of Wilhelmsbad, in 1782.

Benjamin Franklin, John Adams (Roosevelt kinsman) and Thomas Jefferson, ardent Illuminist, proposed the above as the reverse of the seal, on the face of which was the eagle symbol, to Congress, which adopted it on June 20, 1782. On adoption of the Constitution, Congress decreed, by Act of September 15, 1789, its retention as seal of the United States. It is stated however, by the State Department in its latest publication on the subject (2860), that “the reverse has never been cut and used as a seal”, and that only the observe bearing the eagle symbol has been used as official seal and coat of arms. It first was published on the left of the reverse of the dollar bills at the beginning of the New Deal, 1933 by order of President F.D. Roosevelt.

What is the meaning of the publication at the outset of the New Deal of this “Gestapo” symbol that had been so carefully suppressed up to that date that few Americana knew of its existence, other than as a Masonic symbol?

It can only mean that with the advent of the New Deal the Illuminist-Socialist-Communist conspirators, followers of Professor Weishaupt, regarded their efforts as beginning to be crowned with success.

In effect this seal proclaims to the One Worlders that the entire power of the U.S. Government is now controlled by the Illuminati’s agentur and is persuaded or forced to adopt policies which further the secret plans of the conspirators to undermine and destroy it together with the remaining governments of the so-called ‘Free World’, ALL existing religions, etc., etc., so that the Synagogue of Satan will be able to usurp the powers of the first world government to be established and then impose a Luciferian totalitarian dictatorship upon what remains of the Human Race.

Of course, almost everything he wrote in that is complete and utter crap. Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati never used an unfinished pyramid as a symbol; 1776 was also the founding of America; the all seeing eye represents the omniscience of God; Franklin's proposal didn't include that reverse at all; etc.

Carr writes all of the above without citing a single source. Basically, he made it up and it sold books. And ever since then, conspiracy theorists have insisted that the eye in the pyramid was an Illuminati symbol, when there are absolutely no historical records which support that theory.