Did Jesus Really Make A Sacrifice?

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by Griffo
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Like I said, people with an open mind will have no problem understanding it. For some reason you can't accept the fact that Easter was in fact a Pagan festival. The Christians then took it, probably as a way to get more people believing in their faith, whilst keeping with the traditions of their previous religion

Constantine was the first Roman emperor to support Christianity, and became a Christian. He wanted to do away with all of their pagan traditions and practices. These pagan practices and traditions ended up getting incorporated into the church, which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church. Even the calendar was incorporated, therefore is not an accurate calendar that we go by today.
Easter, Halloween, Christmas and so forth are all of pagan origin celebrations.

Yeah, as I just said, I kinda knew all that, having given it considerable study. As a radical Protestant, I am well past all that Pagan/Roman stuff, including the doctrine of Hell.

reply to post by Griffo


The name of the flesh sacrifice of a messiah isn't that important. If it was, it would have been announced in the prophecies. The flesh isn't the issue of the messiah because it was God who used the flesh to speak with. God is nothing but thoughts where all his plans were made. His first creation was light energy and this light is what used the flesh of the prophets, Jesus and the saints. This light is the voice of God that had the flesh write and speak while God inpired the words with his knowledge.

The prophets who came before the sacrifice couldn't be made sinless so this means that God couldn't change their corrupt DNA. The flesh of Jesus was conceived without these genetic sin traits by changing the DNA of his parents seed. All the chosen ones who came after this sacrifice of Jesus became sinless by God who changed their DNA to stop their sin nature from deceiving their thoughts, which were the thoughts of God. This is the knowledge of God, which is the truth. These saints go from being a sinner and liar to a sinless saint who speaks the truth.

So there were thousands of saints who were just like Jesus and preached the true gospel. Not the gospel of Christianity which are only words out of a book.

reply to post by Griffo

Your not accurate when you blame Christians for incorporating Easter, same for what is called Christmas which the term did not exist prior.
It wasn't per say Christians, try more the organized church, try more the Romans, that didn't want to give up their pagan traditions, the Roman Catholic Church changed these pagan beliefs over to become what is celebrated today by all denominations that proclaim to be Christian.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by Griffo
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Like I said, people with an open mind will have no problem understanding it. For some reason you can't accept the fact that Easter was in fact a Pagan festival. The Christians then took it, probably as a way to get more people believing in their faith, whilst keeping with the traditions of their previous religion

Constantine was the first Roman emperor to support Christianity, and became a Christian. He wanted to do away with all of their pagan traditions and practices. These pagan practices and traditions ended up getting incorporated into the church, which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church. Even the calendar was incorporated, therefore is not an accurate calendar that we go by today.
Easter, Halloween, Christmas and so forth are all of pagan origin celebrations.

Yeah, as I just said, I kinda knew all that, having given it considerable study. As a radical Protestant, I am well past all that Pagan/Roman stuff, including the doctrine of Hell.

If you don't believe in hell than are you saying that you don't believe in what is said in the bible about hell or Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, or the lake of fire which is the final place where the souls of those will go?

Originally posted by hawaii50th
If you don't believe in hell than are you saying that you don't believe in what is said in the bible about hell or Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, or the lake of fire which is the final place where the souls of those will go?

The Greek word 'Ghenna' translated 'hell' in the New Testament was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

Worms ate the refuse and fires burned off the methane...
...it is a metaphor...
...it was meant to convey the idea that unless the 'spirit' of a human is united to the 'Spirit' they will be 'put out with the garbage'.

The idea of an eternally burning hell did not originate in Hebrew thought...
...but was based on ideas of mans post-mortem state that originated with Homer and later developed by Plato...
...later introduced into Christian thinking as the church became progressively more Gentile...
...then popularized by Dante and exploited by prelates as a tool to increase church membership.
...dwarfed by other issues the Protestant Reformers simply inherited the idea.

There is, however, one example of 'eternal fire' open to scientific evaluation.

A description of an event was recorded in Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by 'aionios pur', literally 'eternal fire'.


Gomorrha can be seen on Google Earth at 31 19 38 N 35 22 36 E...
Sodom at 31°11'47.62"N 35°23'47.34"E

There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now...

So the term 'eternal fire' must mean 'complete destruction' by one who is 'eternal' and not a reference to a fire that never stops burning.

reply to post by troubleshooter

There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now...

Apparently there is... if you consider eternal fire or "fire and brimstone" to be sulfer...

And as a matter of fact the sulfer still burns...

check it out...

The remains of Sodom and Gomorrah

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by hawaii50th
If you don't believe in hell than are you saying that you don't believe in what is said in the bible about hell or Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, or the lake of fire which is the final place where the souls of those will go?

The Greek word 'Ghenna' translated 'hell' in the New Testament was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

Worms ate the refuse and fires burned off the methane...
...it is a metaphor...
...it was meant to convey the idea that unless the 'spirit' of a human is united to the 'Spirit' they will be 'put out with the garbage'.

The idea of an eternally burning hell did not originate in Hebrew thought...
...but was based on ideas of mans post-mortem state that originated with Homer and later developed by Plato...
...later introduced into Christian thinking as the church became progressively more Gentile...
...then popularized by Dante and exploited by prelates as a tool to increase church membership.
...dwarfed by other issues the Protestant Reformers simply inherited the idea.

There is, however, one example of 'eternal fire' open to scientific evaluation.

A description of an event was recorded in Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by 'aionios pur', literally 'eternal fire'.


Gomorrha can be seen on Google Earth at 31 19 38 N 35 22 36 E...
Sodom at 31°11'47.62"N 35°23'47.34"E

There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now...

So the term 'eternal fire' must mean 'complete destruction' by one who is 'eternal' and not a reference to a fire that never stops burning.

The reason Christianity is full of pagan ideas is because it's a pagan religion started by the Roman government after they killed all the saints. The saints were the true chosen ones of God who spoke for him just like Jesus did. They had many followers because it takes years for God to change their DNA and stop their sin nature so he can use their bodies. After the saints were killed, the Romans had to figure out a way to deceive these followers who were called children of God. They became the first Roman Catholic christians who ended up using a falsified new testament that kept them deceived up until today.

reply to post by troubleshooter

The Greek word 'Ghenna' translated 'hell' in the New Testament was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

Yes your right and I know this, I just didn't go into it. It is a comparison for hell or of eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. Here from Matthew 25:41

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by 'aionios pur', literally 'eternal fire'. There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now... So the term 'eternal fire' must mean 'complete destruction' by one who is 'eternal' and not a reference to a fire that never stops burning.

Christ spoke of the place of eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his (fallen)angels, this is where the cursed will be thrown into Mathew 25:40-42. So the term may have been developed by Plato, but you would think to question what Plato and Homer knew to come up with such an idea.

There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now... So the term 'eternal fire' must mean 'complete destruction' by one who is 'eternal' and not a reference to a fire that never stops burning.

No, of course there is no eternal fire there now, for that occurrence, eternal fire was used to descibe the event that took place there.
Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 He overthrew, destroyed, and ended those cities, and all the valley and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

reply to post by godspeaker

The reason Christianity is full of pagan ideas is because it's a pagan religion started by the Roman government after they killed all the saints. The saints were the true chosen ones of God who spoke for him just like Jesus did. They had many followers because it takes years for God to change their DNA and stop their sin nature so he can use their bodies. After the saints were killed, the Romans had to figure out a way to deceive these followers who were called children of God. They became the first Roman Catholic christians who ended up using a falsified new testament that kept them deceived up until today.

I wouldn't go so far as saying Christianity is what has pagan ideas. Christianity came first before the Roman Catholic Church did. Many theologians, and those that study ancient writings have been able to see and study the ancient biblical texts for themselves, proving that these scriptural texts were around before the church compiled them into the bible.

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by godspeaker

 

The reason Christianity is full of pagan ideas is because it's a pagan religion started by the Roman government after they killed all the saints. The saints were the true chosen ones of God who spoke for him just like Jesus did. They had many followers because it takes years for God to change their DNA and stop their sin nature so he can use their bodies. After the saints were killed, the Romans had to figure out a way to deceive these followers who were called children of God. They became the first Roman Catholic christians who ended up using a falsified new testament that kept them deceived up until today.

I wouldn't go so far as saying Christianity is what has pagan ideas. Christianity came first before the Roman Catholic Church did. Many theologians, and those that study ancient writings have been able to see and study the ancient biblical texts for themselves, proving that these scriptural texts were around before the church compiled them into the bible.

I didn't say that the Romans wrote the new testament. They confiscated the writings of the saints before they hauled them to court and had them beheaded. These saints never called themselves Christians. They never acted as a group of people because God worked with each one of them individually. They each had the knowledge of God and he controlled their bodies at all times.

The Roman government killed all these saints and then deceived their followers who were on their way to become sinless saints, too. Without a saint around for God to make commands to these children of God, they never became sinless so there sins deceived their thoughts and kept them as liars. They were easily deceived by the Romand who turned them into Roman Catholic Christians.

Not one Christian has ever become a sinless saint and preached the true Gospel. Instead, sinners who call themselves Christians are preaching false gospels learned from their own interpretations of the scriptures. This is why there was famine of the word that was written as a prophecy in Amos 8: 11-12. You can also see this famine in Daniel 9: 27 which is the last half of the 70th week when sacrifices and offerings will cease. This means the gospel wasn't preached after the saints were killed. Not until the prophecy of Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled and that's the one I'm fulfilling at this time.

Originally posted by godspeaker

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by godspeaker

 

The reason Christianity is full of pagan ideas is because it's a pagan religion started by the Roman government after they killed all the saints. The saints were the true chosen ones of God who spoke for him just like Jesus did. They had many followers because it takes years for God to change their DNA and stop their sin nature so he can use their bodies. After the saints were killed, the Romans had to figure out a way to deceive these followers who were called children of God. They became the first Roman Catholic christians who ended up using a falsified new testament that kept them deceived up until today.

I wouldn't go so far as saying Christianity is what has pagan ideas. Christianity came first before the Roman Catholic Church did. Many theologians, and those that study ancient writings have been able to see and study the ancient biblical texts for themselves, proving that these scriptural texts were around before the church compiled them into the bible.

I didn't say that the Romans wrote the new testament. They confiscated the writings of the saints before they hauled them to court and had them beheaded. These saints never called themselves Christians. They never acted as a group of people because God worked with each one of them individually. They each had the knowledge of God and he controlled their bodies at all times.

The Roman government killed all these saints and then deceived their followers who were on their way to become sinless saints, too. Without a saint around for God to make commands to these children of God, they never became sinless so there sins deceived their thoughts and kept them as liars. They were easily deceived by the Romand who turned them into Roman Catholic Christians.

Not one Christian has ever become a sinless saint and preached the true Gospel. Instead, sinners who call themselves Christians are preaching false gospels learned from their own interpretations of the scriptures. This is why there was famine of the word that was written as a prophecy in Amos 8: 11-12. You can also see this famine in Daniel 9: 27 which is the last half of the 70th week when sacrifices and offerings will cease. This means the gospel wasn't preached after the saints were killed. Not until the prophecy of Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled and that's the one I'm fulfilling at this time.

I didn't say that the Romans wrote the new testament. They confiscated the writings of the saints before they hauled them to court and had them beheaded. These saints never called themselves Christians. They never acted as a group of people because God worked with each one of them individually. They each had the knowledge of God and he controlled their bodies at all times.

I didn't say that you said the Romans wrote the new testament. You said that Christianity is full of pagan ideas. That makes it sound as if all the followers of Christ were full of pagan ideas.
In Acts 11:26 And the disciples were all called Christians. And who were the 12 disciples, did they not all work together? Acts 2:1-3 The day of Pentecost.

Where do you get your doctrine from?

Yes God did touch them with the Holy Spirit, each were led by the Spirit, and they all taught others by the Spirit.
God did not control their bodies, they all had freedom to choose. The difference was that each and everyone of them were filled with the Holy Spirit which gave them God's wisdom to teach and lead. Anyone today can be filled in the same way. When someone has Christ in their heart, and when they have the Holy Spirit leading them, they have a new spirit in them with a new heart and a new mind. The old self dies, and a new self is born. No longer do you want to do the things that pleasure the flesh in lude and unbecoming ways. You want to do things that are pleasing to God. It's not to say that we don't fall because yes we do. This is why Christ was sacrificed on the cross to die for our sins, he paid the ultimate penalty so we could have salvation. Every day as a follower of Christ we are to confess to God all of our short comings.Ephesians 6:12 Romans 10:8-10
This is what sets us free from judgment, and gives us an eternal promise for eternal life in Jesus name.

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

You appear to intensify your missionary efforts on the line of:

Uniform zombification is freedom, because when we know the absolutes of a branch of ideological fascism, there's only black and white to choose between, and that choice shouldn't be a problem for any true believer.

The alleged 'sacrifice' of Jesus is just part of the great zombification-circular-scheme based on imaginary absolutes.

Some say it with flowers, some say hallelujah and some sieg heil. These options have always been a part of any religion (though some maybe say aum instead of hallelujah) and the way non-believers approach any religion is depending on how the religion presents itself in deed and doctrine.

And that's not mentioning the rational parts.

You sure like using the term "zombie" you got some kind of fetish for zombies or what?
I don't expect much Europeans as yourself to understand something that comes straight to the point.
Rational? You don't understand the term rational, otherwise you'd get it.

Zombi is a good word in this context (btw 'context' is also a word I use often).

Relating to topic I can put up a rational chain of reasoning. To believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, you have to believe in redemption. To believe in redemption you have to believe in NT PLUS to believe in redemption you also have to believe in original sin. To believe in original sin you have to believe in OT. To believe in OT AND NT simultaneously, you have to believe in the most recent covenant. To believe in the most recent covenant you have to believe in Paulus. To believe in Paulus you have to believe in Melchizedek. To believe in OT you have to just.....believe. To believe in Melchizedek you have to just....believe.

That's a lot of elaborate and intertwined believing, and, I may add, not very rational.

Unless you choose the path of pseudo-science/logic, where you

a/ Hijack standard science/logic and invent 'arguments' such as 'intelligent design' or 'Pascal's wager'.

b/ Can find some secret codes/patterns in bible texts, 'proved' by method a/ type twisted real science.

c/ Through 'signs and wonders' can see something, because you want to see something.

As it's uncertain if you by 'rational' include scientific and/or logical, I'll just let this direction finish here.

Originally posted by hawaii50thIf you don't believe in hell than are you saying that you don't believe in what is said in the bible about hell or Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, or the lake of fire which is the final place where the souls of those will go?

As an ex-athiest, I came to Christianity and the Bible with no preconceptions. As a child, I had been given the Baptist hellfire & brimstone message, but as an adult, I noticed that the Bible said little about heaven and nothing at all about hell. In time, I became a Seventh-Day Adventist, and took up their idea of soul-sleep and the final destruction of the wicked. Later, after I had studied my way into, and then out of, adventism, I came across the doctrine of universal reconciliation. I have come to these conclusions:

If you believe in a just God, you will tend to believe in the eternal torment of the wicked.

If you believe in a merciful God, you will tend to believe in the eternal annihilation of the wicked.

If you believe in a loving God, you will tend to believe in the final reconciliation of the wicked.

In my view, backed up by considerable study, "hell" for the most part, simply means the grave. As I have said in other threads, in the old days, if you didn't have a root cellar, you could dig a trench, line the bottom with straw, lay down a layer of potatoes, cover that with more straw, and shovel in the dirt you had dug out. That was called "helling" the potatoes.

There is this thing called the lake of fire, into which the devil, his demons, and the wicked are cast. I once thought that that was the end of them all (final annihilation). However, it was pointed out to me that the fire is either a destroying fire or a refining fire. I think it is a destroying fire for devil & demons, for the Plan of Salvation does not include them. However, for wicked humans, it will be a refining fire, for they are included in the Plan of Salvation. Ask yourself, does God intend to save to the uttermost? I think He does. The Jubilee Principle establishes that (if we view sin as debt) all debts are temporary, and totally cancelled at some point, at which time, all come into their inheritance, and former possession.

Read the works of Stephen E. Jones if these ideas interest you.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

You appear to intensify your missionary efforts on the line of:

Uniform zombification is freedom, because when we know the absolutes of a branch of ideological fascism, there's only black and white to choose between, and that choice shouldn't be a problem for any true believer.

The alleged 'sacrifice' of Jesus is just part of the great zombification-circular-scheme based on imaginary absolutes.

Some say it with flowers, some say hallelujah and some sieg heil. These options have always been a part of any religion (though some maybe say aum instead of hallelujah) and the way non-believers approach any religion is depending on how the religion presents itself in deed and doctrine.

And that's not mentioning the rational parts.

You sure like using the term "zombie" you got some kind of fetish for zombies or what?
I don't expect much Europeans as yourself to understand something that comes straight to the point.
Rational? You don't understand the term rational, otherwise you'd get it.

Zombi is a good word in this context (btw 'context' is also a word I use often).

Relating to topic I can put up a rational chain of reasoning. To believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, you have to believe in redemption. To believe in redemption you have to believe in NT PLUS to believe in redemption you also have to believe in original sin. To believe in original sin you have to believe in OT. To believe in OT AND NT simultaneously, you have to believe in the most recent covenant. To believe in the most recent covenant you have to believe in Paulus. To believe in Paulus you have to believe in Melchizedek. To believe in OT you have to just.....believe. To believe in Melchizedek you have to just....believe.

That's a lot of elaborate and intertwined believing, and, I may add, not very rational.

Unless you choose the path of pseudo-science/logic, where you

a/ Hijack standard science/logic and invent 'arguments' such as 'intelligent design' or 'Pascal's wager'.

b/ Can find some secret codes/patterns in bible texts, 'proved' by method a/ type twisted real science.

c/ Through 'signs and wonders' can see something, because you want to see something.

As it's uncertain if you by 'rational' include scientific and/or logical, I'll just let this direction finish here.

The only rational here is your own.

Originally posted by bogomil

Zombi is a good word in this context (btw 'context' is also a word I use often).

Relating to topic I can put up a rational chain of reasoning. To believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, you have to believe in redemption. To believe in redemption you have to believe in NT PLUS to believe in redemption you also have to believe in original sin. To believe in original sin you have to believe in OT. To believe in OT AND NT simultaneously, you have to believe in the most recent covenant. To believe in the most recent covenant you have to believe in Paulus. To believe in Paulus you have to believe in Melchizedek. To believe in OT you have to just.....believe. To believe in Melchizedek you have to just....believe.

That's a lot of elaborate and intertwined believing, and, I may add, not very rational.

Unless you choose the path of pseudo-science/logic, where you

a/ Hijack standard science/logic and invent 'arguments' such as 'intelligent design' or 'Pascal's wager'.

b/ Can find some secret codes/patterns in bible texts, 'proved' by method a/ type twisted real science.

c/ Through 'signs and wonders' can see something, because you want to see something.

As it's uncertain if you by 'rational' include scientific and/or logical, I'll just let this direction finish here.

Before we explore the difference between religion and spirituality, we must first define the two terms. Religion can be defined as “belief in God or gods to be worshipped, usually expressed in conduct and ritual” or “any specific system of belief, worship, etc., often involving a code of ethics.” Spirituality can be defined as “the quality or fact of being spiritual, non-physical” or “predominantly spiritual character as shown in thought, life, etc.; spiritual tendency or tone.” To put it briefly, religion is a set of beliefs and rituals that claim to get a person in a right relationship with God, and spirituality is a focus on spiritual things and the spiritual world instead of physical/earthly things.

The most common misconception about religion is that Christianity is just another religion like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. Sadly, many who claim to be adherents of Christianity do practice Christianity as if it were a religion. To many, Christianity is nothing more than a set of rules and rituals that a person has to observe in order to go to heaven after death. That is not true Christianity. True Christianity is not a religion; rather, it is having a right relationship with God by receiving Jesus Christ as the Savior-Messiah, by grace through faith. Yes, Christianity does have “rituals” to observe (e.g., baptism and communion). Yes, Christianity does have “rules” to follow (e.g., do not murder, love one another, etc.). However, these rituals and rules are not the essence of Christianity. The rituals and rules of Christianity are the result of salvation. When we receive salvation through Jesus Christ, we are baptized as a proclamation of that faith. We observe communion in remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice. We follow a list of do’s and don’ts out of love for God and gratitude for what He has done.

The most common misconception about spirituality is that there are many forms of spirituality, and all are equally valid. Meditating in unusual physical positions, communing with nature, seeking conversation with the spirit world, etc., may seem to be “spiritual,” but they are in fact false spirituality. True spirituality is possessing the Holy Spirit of God as a result of receiving salvation through Jesus Christ. True spirituality is the fruit that the Holy Spirit produces in a person’s life: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). Spirituality is all about becoming more like God, who is spirit (John 4:24) and having our character conformed to His image (Romans 12:1-2).

What religion and spirituality have in common is that they both can be false methods of having a relationship with God. Religion tends to substitute the heartless observance of rituals for a genuine relationship with God. Spirituality tends to substitute connection with the spirit world for a genuine relationship with God. Both can be, and often are, false paths to God. At the same time, religion can be valuable in the sense that it points to the fact that there is a God and that we are somehow accountable to Him. The only true value of religion is its ability to point out that we have fallen short and are in need of a Savior. Spirituality can be valuable in that it points out that the physical world is not all there is. Human beings are not only material, but also possess a soul-spirit. There is a spiritual world around us of which we should be aware. The true value of spirituality is that it points to the fact that there is something and someone beyond this physical world to which we need to connect.

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of both religion and spirituality. Jesus is the One to whom we are accountable and to whom true religion points. Jesus is the One to whom we need to connect and the One to whom true spirituality points.

reply to post by hawaii50th


You wrote:

["True spirituality is possessing the Holy Spirit of God as a result of receiving salvation through Jesus Christ."]

I'm the proud possessor of an equalent to your holy spirit, acquired from a non-christian source. How do we decide

a/ If mine is a counterfeit

b/ Yours is a counterfeit

c/ Both are counterfeits

d/ Both are the genuine thingy.

Here's what I guess is your indirect answer:

Quote: ["The only true value of religion is its ability to point out that we have fallen short and are in need of a Savior."]

That's for the existentially insecure, who can't stand on their own legs. Both needing someone to direct their lives and also wanting to force everybody else to join their club, because there's safety and comfort in numbers.

Quote: ["Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of both religion and spirituality."]

Bosh.

Quote: ["Jesus is the One to whom we are accountable and to whom true religion points."]

Bosh.

Quote: ["Jesus is the One to whom we need to connect and the One to whom true spirituality points."]

Are you used to making wild fabulations 'true' by endlessly repeating them? You're not home in the congregation now, where scripture proves scripture.

A 'proof' isn't just parrotting from some religious source or referring to some private methodology. ANY religion can do that.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

You wrote:

["True spirituality is possessing the Holy Spirit of God as a result of receiving salvation through Jesus Christ."]

I'm the proud possessor of an equalent to your holy spirit, acquired from a non-christian source. How do we decide

a/ If mine is a counterfeit

b/ Yours is a counterfeit

c/ Both are counterfeits

d/ Both are the genuine thingy.

Here's what I guess is your indirect answer:

Quote: ["The only true value of religion is its ability to point out that we have fallen short and are in need of a Savior."]

That's for the existentially insecure, who can't stand on their own legs. Both needing someone to direct their lives and also wanting to force everybody else to join their club, because there's safety and comfort in numbers.

Quote: ["Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of both religion and spirituality."]

Bosh.

Quote: ["Jesus is the One to whom we are accountable and to whom true religion points."]

Bosh.

Quote: ["Jesus is the One to whom we need to connect and the One to whom true spirituality points."]

Are you used to making wild fabulations 'true' by endlessly repeating them? You're not home in the congregation now, where scripture proves scripture.

A 'proof' isn't just parrotting from some religious source or referring to some private methodology. ANY religionist can do that.

Have a great day.

reply to post by hawaii50th


You wrote:

["Have a great day."]


Thank you. The same to you.

Regarding Original Sin, many of the eastern mystic traditions have quite a different perception.

The "original sin" with which man was originally born into this world and still carries within themselves was the seed of desire for self-realization, the desire to know and experience the truth of existence, the soul or self, and all of Reality.

Without this seed of desire, there would be no questioning of who or why we are, no philosophy, no science, no urge to gain knowledge or understanding, no seeking for God or higher mysteries.

In the light of this perspective, it does not make sense that any being or person would sacrifice themselves for the sake of this "Original Sin", because it is this very original sin which propels the soul to seek answers in religions.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
Regarding Original Sin, many of the eastern mystic traditions have quite a different perception.

The "original sin" with which man was originally born into this world and still carries within themselves was the seed of desire for self-realization, the desire to know and experience the truth of existence, the soul or self, and all of Reality.

Without this seed of desire, there would be no questioning of who or why we are, no philosophy, no science, no urge to gain knowledge or understanding, no seeking for God or higher mysteries.

In the light of this perspective, it does not make sense that any being or person would sacrifice themselves for the sake of this "Original Sin", because it is this very original sin which propels the soul to seek answers in religions.

First of all, we need to think in a spiritual way and not in human terms. As humans we have limitations, God is Spirit, He has knowledge and understanding that goes beyond our own understanding.
In the garden of Eden, there were two choices, one was knowledge, and the other was life. Knowledge is what we have today, Life is what we could have had where there would have been no sorrow, hate, war, violence, and so on. It would have been perfect, we would be able to talk to God directly, and He would have been among us.

The temptation of knowledge is for us to become vain, and arrogant and wanting to be as gods to control our own destiny and knowing what good and evil is, do you understand my meaning, no harmony.

The angel Lucifer was one of God's creation, Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels, and he had great powers. All of it went to his head, he developed a tremendous ego, and rebelled against God. Lucifer when God banished him from the heavenly places(different dimensions, the Universe, and Heaven itself) made him very angry at God. Now Lucifer in his anger and ego wanted to destroy everything God had created, especially man.
In fact if Lucifer could destroy man, than that would include the earth, another one of God's creation.
Lucifer influenced many other angels to follow him and this is why we are having and always had so much turmoil on this earth. It is a battle of wits between Satan and God, and God will prevail, after all He is the Creator.
Our struggle in life is between the forces of light(good) and darkness(evil), we are influenced by the bad but we can be protected if we accept the good.