Did Jesus Really Make A Sacrifice?

I've been holding off creating this thread for quite a while now, as I just know that the flaming potential is through the roof. But, ahh well, this will give you something to think about before Easter:

Was Jesus' death really a sacrifice? When you look at it this way it becomes clear that in fact, it may not have been. The first part of this article talks about the origins of Easter. As you may or may not know, Easter was originally a Pagan festival to celebrate fertility. The name Easter traces back to its Pagan origins (Eostre, was a Germanic goddess, who, whilst giving her name to the Xian festival, also gave her name to the month of April in the old Pagan calendar). Eggs were also linked back to the Pagan festival as the symbol of fertility.

The main part of the article breaks down the biblical text regarding Easter down into individual sentences and explorers the validity of such claims.

Jesus was arrested by the Romans

“And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.” Matthew 26:50

Okay. Lets say this happened. Nothing out of the ordinary here.

Then they examine this passage, which includes Zombies!! For all the fans of horror films out there:

When he died the graves opened and bodies got up and walked about- zombies, yes actual #ing zombies!

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many” Matthew 27:52-53

Not only do we have zombies, but people saw them. Lots of people. Now call me cynical, but if a city under Roman occupation was invaded by zombies, do you not think ONE contemporary historian would have written about it. Do you not think even ONE non contemporary historian would have written about it. Its official, Resident Evil is in fact a Biblical video game. With Chris Redfield as Jesus and Jill Valentine as Mary Magdalene. Wesker can be Pontius Pilot and Barry can be Judas.

The article then goes on to talk about the three circumstances occurring Jesus' death:

So, ignoring the extreme historical inaccuracies (zombies spring to mind) we have the story here of a divine being, being executed, then resurrecting three days later and ascending into heaven. Lets assume this is true. We come back to the question of “What sacrifice was actually made?”.

As far as I can see there was none. We have three options related to sacrifice:

1) Jesus was a fully mortal entity who died on the cross and did not resurrect - A sacrifice is made.

2) Jesus was either fully mortal or part god and died on the cross but was resurrected 3 days alter- not really a sacrifice, just a minor annoyance for a couple of hours.

3) Jesus was god incarnated as human flesh, “Died” on the cross and ascended back home 3 days later. No sacrifice at all.

After these points were made, the article then goes on to explain in detail of why Jesus' death was, in actual fact, not a sacrifice.

I'm just going to wait here now and prepare my flaming gear

Edit: in my haste, I forgot the link

Did Jesus Make A Sacrifice?

Vicarious redemption is evil preaching.

I despise people who claim to be virtuous by believing and accepting such nonsense.

I'm not bound by a human sacrifice that took place thousands of years ago, if i had been alive i would be bound to do anything to prevent it. Hitchens has said more or less the same thing.



Christopher Hitchens on "Vicarious Redemption"

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Exactly, it's a similar sort of thing, with respect to the original sin argument. Because of something that one of our ancestors did long ago, after being tempted by one of god's own creations, and without any knowledge of the consequences of his actions, god decided to curse our entire species with death and suffering

reply to post by Griffo


Christianity is nothing more than a "hand-me-down" religion that has it's roots in paganism . Anyone who cares to do some serious study , will see this is the truth .

I'll put my flame-suit on also , as I'm sure the zealots will be along shortly .

It amazes me that people still believe in these superstitions in today's world and society . You'd think we were all still living in the dark ages .

Check out this thread for a brief history of "Easter" :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Actually, if you consider it from a different angle.

Lets say the story is true...he allowed himself to be crusified to wash mans sins, etc...well, he knew..knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was going to heaven right after. Not just go, but rule heaven.

The whole death process itself then becomes meaningless if you have supernatural knowledge of whats going on afterwards in no uncertain terms...suddenly the sacrifice is akin to someone recieving a splinter and in return, gains 30 billion dollars and youthful vampiristic style immortality (without the negatives)....sounds like the splinter bit right before is nothing in comparison.

If a god truely wanted to know what it is like being a human, I would think the story of jesus is not an accurate account..perhaps charlie sheen or joe the gas station attendant is more approprate. No knowledge of anything after, no messages or signs, no miracles, etc..just simply living as a full human with no idea of not only your nature, but even if there is anything after. Wouldn't it be a hoot to find out that Dawkins was actually God..just thought logically about things and concluded there is no god (even though he is god)...

Then...only then would a deity know the human condition and react approprately...I imagine the avatar would fall into the same vices we fall into...the cosmic facepalm when he realizes that he destroyed humanity repeatedly for the same crap he did when he came here...etc.

Ya...until such a story comes about of the very human deity experiencing life, then there is no sacrifice.

and not just one life...a deity would have to experience a few hundred different versions in my opinion...be a poor middle eastern, be a hollywood actor, be a military brat, be white, black, and asian, etc...experience all the perspectives with no clue while alive what you are beyond just a simple human.

Sacrifice and demand on us is meaningless when you choose to not see our perspective.

That one man's tragedy would, via metaphysical associations, safeguard an in-group member from the difficulties of life, from maturing by way of suffering, and existing as a complete human being, part good and part evil, seems to me to be the superstitious dream reality of a child.

As all people can't be expected to leave their comfort zones then yes, I suppose in a way he did make a sacrifice, though I doubt he got his price if the Bible is to be taken at it's word.

He lived 33 years and died before His time with no wife/children. (Isa 53:8)
He suffered a slow agonizing death, not to mention the humiliation and torture that preceded.
He found Himself abandoned by his closed friends/followers ("I don't know Him!")
whether or not He knew He would be resurrected--I believe He did--that's a pretty impressive sacrifice to me.
how many of us would voluntarily suffer, say, 10 lashes 'even if it won't kill you!'?
and how would it feel to be so tortured for something you didn't do?

"I am willing to die for my god!"
"I believe you are. But my God was willing to die for me."

reply to post by Griffo


Or Jesus didn't die on the cross! The blood on the Turin shroud proves that the blood didn't coagulate i.e The person laid on the shroud wasn't dead. The Vatican presided over a sham dating of the shroud in 1988.

The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidence for the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 - 1390 (rounded down/up to nearest 10 yr). These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval.

This has been called into question as the shroud was burned in a fire in 1532 and then patched up with newer linnen. The theory goes that the linnen used to patch the damaged bit of the shroud was used for carbon dating.

As the piece of the shroud to be used for carbon dating was choosen by the Vatican, they could have choose the newer patched linnen.........why? I hear you ask..............good question...............If the person on the shroud wasn't dead! Jesus wasn't resurected!!! A bit of a headache for the Catholic church dont you think. Also if the shroud was dated to Mediaeval times why is it still held sacred by the Vatican???

reply to post by works4dhs


and even still, he could have been wrong about his God, he COULD have been deluded. OR the story of Jesus is untrue anyway, there's no way to verify it. Faith is all they have to convince us he died for our "sins" - A sin is something that goes against God's desires, if i disagree with his desires, i'm a sinner. It's all just subjective nonsense to begin with.

All I know is that group rights and group punishments based on whims or transient events of a few are but crude efforts not worthy of a supreme being that knows all things..
Group entitlements bad or good are creations of something that doesnt know specifics of the individuals involved and therefore makes a generalization regardless of the facts in every case, hardly the hallmark of a deity, but quite typical of humans
As for the rest of it, I suspect you'll find out soon enough.

reply to post by works4dhs

He lived 33 years and died before His time with no wife/children. (Isa 53:8)

[citation needed]

He suffered a slow agonizing death, not to mention the humiliation and torture that preceded.

Crucifixion was the common method of execution in those days, so he only endured what others did. Plus, if we're talking about the amount of pain felt = the higher the sacrifice, then the people who suffered during the holocaust must me gods

He found Himself abandoned by his closed friends/followers ("I don't know Him!")

He knew that one person would deceive him and he knew that they would deny him, and he said that to them at the last supper (don't know what passage in the bible it is, but it's there)

whether or not He knew He would be resurrected--I believe He did--that's a pretty impressive sacrifice to me.

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

If we read the bible, then we can see these main points:

Jesus was divine, Jesus knew he would be resurrected. Jesus knew he would ascend to heaven to sit by his father/ himself. So I ask again, what sacrifice was actually made.

Originally posted by Griffo
reply to post by works4dhs

 

He lived 33 years and died before His time with no wife/children. (Isa 53:8)

[citation needed]

He suffered a slow agonizing death, not to mention the humiliation and torture that preceded.

Crucifixion was the common method of execution in those days, so he only endured what others did. Plus, if we're talking about the amount of pain felt = the higher the sacrifice, then the people who suffered during the holocaust must me gods

He found Himself abandoned by his closed friends/followers ("I don't know Him!")

He knew that one person would deceive him and he knew that they would deny him, and he said that to them at the last supper (don't know what passage in the bible it is, but it's there)

whether or not He knew He would be resurrected--I believe He did--that's a pretty impressive sacrifice to me.

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

If we read the bible, then we can see these main points:

Jesus was divine, Jesus knew he would be resurrected. Jesus knew he would ascend to heaven to sit by his father/ himself. So I ask again, what sacrifice was actually made.

Then you'd have to ask if Judas was really a bad guy or just doing what he had to, essential in closing the deal.
You could do this all day.
The next step is that if prophesy is in action now and evil is in charge of the nation and the political priest class do you actively oppose it somehow or just roll with it?

First of all Jesus did sacrifice his life as a man for you.

When in the garden he did sweat and cry tears of blood as he knew full well what was comming. This is an actual human condition which can only be brought about by extreme stress.

He knew what was to take place in a short amount of time not only because he was God as man in living flesh, but also because of the prophesy of old, generations before his birth on the comming messiah.

Now for this man to orchestrate his life from birth to death no beyond death even, is beyond any calculation. The FACT that he did fullfill scripture can only be seen therefore as miraculous,as numbers show to make this possible through will or coincidence beyond impossible.

There is a book called "The day Christ died" which goes into great detail to show how he did fullfill the scriptures, whats more it does a nice job of prooving his existance through historical documents.

This documented proof comes mosty from those who were opposed to him, which in and of itself is a miracle and lends greater credential to the fact that he indeed walked the earth.

Your uneducated opinion on such matters can only bring ridicule for yourself. If you can find fault in the teachings of Christ then do so.

Those beyond your capabilities have failed, I know you will indeed die before this happens. So instead of wasting your time and everyone elses for that matter, why dont you go learn something. Then the next time you make a post you can base it on FACT & TRUTH...

Maybe then you will show your worth to others and attain the stars and flags you desire so much.

Reply to post by Griffo

You wanna prove jesus was right buddy ??.. Why else would you up bring this topic ?!?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

No need for me to proove he was right, he did a fantastic job all on his own... Your wrath tells me you cant find fault in him though... Thanx for playing kid...

reply to post by Griffo


did he make a scrafice?? he came to this hell hole didnt he?

Here is another way of looking at it.

A NEW HOPE

In a galaxy far far away...

Before Christ, men say they talk to God givining them authority over you and use this to oppress your society.

Christ comes along and realises, "Hey, this dude God is EVERYWHERE! Therefore he must be within all of us!"

So, he leads a mission to wake people up, "Hey dudes, I am the Son of God, and guess what So are you if you can believe it! Love one another, we are all Children of God!"

The Priests realise that they cannot argue the logic so they must kill him, but are forbidden by their own religious laws "Doh!"

So, they get the Romans to do it.

Pilate can find no reason to Kill Christ, but the Priests point out, "Do you really want this man telling everyone he is above Caesar?"

Pilate has a wife and kid and realises this could cost him his job, so he agrees to give the order, but washes his hands of the whole ordeal.

Everyone turns on Christ because they do not want to meet the same fate, though they sure liked being God's children.

Christ is Crucified and left hanging in the Sun.

He says he is thirsty and is given VINEGAR.

Screw this, I am outta here.

After 6 hours (record time) he is pronounced dead by a Roman Soldier who realised, "Hey this dude IS the Son of God!"

The body is placed in a tomb and cared for with 100 lbs of HEALING herbs. Hhhmmm...

3 days later Mom and lady friend come to check out the body and prepare it for burial. Hmm, where did it go?

Later that evening at the Den of the Son's of God, "Thomas, come here you bad boy..."

Thomas: "Uh whaaaa.... "

Jesus: "Come check out these wounds you doubting fool!"

Thomas: "Wholly molly it is YOU"

Jesus: "Yeah, now remind the people that they are Children of God and to forget about that Sin stuff. Love one another! I am outta here."


So the word spread and all the dead who thought they were merely useless beings caught between the Roman Empire and the Judaic Priesthood rose from the grave and proclaimed they were the Children of God and needed no one between them and their maker.


The Empire Strikes Back

Rome realising the loss of power before them usurps Christs Teachings, turns him into the Sun God of old, eliminates the peoples claim to their own inner divinity, and begins selling tickets to Heaven.

The Return of the Jedi

*** This film is not yet rated ****

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by Griffo

You forgot one.
4. Christ was in fact an alien hybrid. He didn't die on the cross, that was faked, and
Joseph of Arimathea, using his many connections with the Roman court, and the Jewish Underground, healed Christ and made sure he appeared to some to cement the story that he arose from the grave. Some say he lived out his life in France, along with his love, Magdalena, and some say he was beamed up to a spacecraft in front of many witnesses.

Let's see. We send our young to die and say "they paid the ultimate sacrifice".

I guess that means yes.

Different war, same outcome.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Forget about Christ - we've all got the potential to do good. Christ doesn't own that concept.