Did Jesus Really Make A Sacrifice?

reply to post by hawaii50th

In the garden of Eden, there were two choices, one was knowledge, and the other was life. Knowledge is what we have today, Life is what we could have had where there would have been no sorrow, hate, war, violence, and so on. It would have been perfect, we would be able to talk to God directly, and He would have been among us.

It doesn't make sense to me that we originally made an informed choice between Knowledge and Life. If we had the option of a perfect existence in God's presence, or the state in which we find ourselves here on Earth, do you honestly believe anyone would have made a rational choice of mortal life separated from God?

The temptation of knowledge is for us to become vain, and arrogant and wanting to be as gods to control our own destiny and knowing what good and evil is, do you understand my meaning, no harmony.

Knowledge itself does not cause anyone to become vain, rather the belief that one is superior to others on account of one's knowledge.

In fact if Lucifer could destroy man, than that would include the earth, another one of God's creation.

Why would Lucifer wish to destroy the earth? Wasn't he given dominion over the Earth? (Or am I confusing creation myths?) If Lucifer has dominion over Earth, then it is in his best interest to keep it going for as long as possible, I would imagine.

reply to post by mysticnoon

Have you ever been tempted to do something you knew wasn't the right thing to do?

Believing that one is more superior or better than others, doesn't that qualify as vanity?

Satan(Lucifer) is not interested in the preservation of the earth or mankind. He is also doomed to damnation. Why would he care about the earth? The earth is God's creation, and Satan despises everything that God created.
God set a time line for creation after the fall of man. Satan is allowed only a certain time period to tempt man.
After the time line has come to a close, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire.
To God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day, time with God does not exist the way we are use to in the physical world.
There are no myths in creation, as well as I don't believe that Egyptian, and Greek, mythology is all myth either.

reply to post by hawaii50th

Have you ever been tempted to do something you knew wasn't the right thing to do?

Oh, most certainly, but that is a vastly different situation to that of Adam and Eve.

Temptations only arise under the influence of the ego-desires, namely lust, pride, greed, and so forth. I assume Adam and Eve were free of desires prior to making their initial choice, so there was nothing from which a temptation could manifest. In the absence of temptation, the choice which would lead to the highest good would have been made.

If, on the other hand, it is maintained that Adam and Eve were already created with the full set of ego-desires, then this would have had to include the desire to be separated from God, which would have to have been stronger than the desire to remain with God. If this was the original desire, then from whence did it arise?

You see, for me, all these things need to make sense, they must have some grounding in reason. I am more than willing to be open to accepting propositions without evidence as long as they are reasonable, but a proposition which is lacking in both evidence and reason stretches the bounds of credibility to breaking point.

Believing that one is more superior or better than others, doesn't that qualify as vanity?

That is precisely what I said, so we are in agreement here.

(More later)

reply to post by hawaii50th

Satan(Lucifer) is not interested in the preservation of the earth or mankind. He is also doomed to damnation. Why would he care about the earth? The earth is God's creation, and Satan despises everything that God created.

Why does Satan despise everything that God created?

God set a time line for creation after the fall of man. Satan is allowed only a certain time period to tempt man.

If Satan is "allowed" to tempt man, then doesn't Satan live within the Will of God? Also, if Satan has chosen the vocation of tempting man, then one would assume that he also enjoys it, so why would he wish to destroy the only source of his enjoyment? This still makes no sense to me.

After the time line has come to a close, Satan will be cast into the lake of fire

So God allows Satan to do this thankless temptation task, then annhilates him when he no longer has use for him?

There are no myths in creation

Religious cosmologies?

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

Have you ever been tempted to do something you knew wasn't the right thing to do?

Oh, most certainly, but that is a vastly different situation to that of Adam and Eve.

Temptations only arise under the influence of the ego-desires, namely lust, pride, greed, and so forth. I assume Adam and Eve were free of desires prior to making their initial choice, so there was nothing from which a temptation could manifest. In the absence of temptation, the choice which would lead to the highest good would have been made.

If, on the other hand, it is maintained that Adam and Eve were already created with the full set of ego-desires, then this would have had to include the desire to be separated from God, which would have to have been stronger than the desire to remain with God. If this was the original desire, then from whence did it arise?

You see, for me, all these things need to make sense, they must have some grounding in reason. I am more than willing to be open to accepting propositions without evidence as long as they are reasonable, but a proposition which is lacking in both evidence and reason stretches the bounds of credibility to breaking point.

Believing that one is more superior or better than others, doesn't that qualify as vanity?

That is precisely what I said, so we are in agreement here.

(More later)

We are in partial agreement,

Adam and Eve were like innocent little children, they were naked in the garden, but didn't even realize that they were naked. Yes their desires were there, but it's like when we are kids, growing up in a healthy innocent environment. Remember how easy it was to be friends, we could fight with each other and than the next minute it was all forgotten, and we were the best of friends again. The excitement of life, so fresh in your mind, so innocent, with wonder. Blameless, and true, never worrying about love, never worrying about anything. This is how Adam and Eve were.
Now, a pedophile called the devil comes along and ruins it all, takes your innocence away. Now your having thoughts that you never had before, and your feeling shame what a horrible thing just happened to you. (Sorry to be so harsh in getting it across).
Or remember when you first found out how babies were made? Remember the initial shock, ewe my mom and dad did that? Yuk! But after a very short while you got use to the idea, and the next thing you know is that your having thoughts about doing it.
God gave man and woman the freedom to choose, He did not create a race of physical beings to to be without a mind. He created man in His image, if they had chose life over knowledge they would have realized the mind of God, and they could have had eternal life on earth. They made the mistake and chose to be tempted by the lie, from the disgusting father of lies. Man and woman had a choice and they made it.
All God wanted was for man and woman to worship Him freely, of their own free will, and He would have provided for them. God is just, and His love is perfect.
Now many will say, well that's selfish to want to make man worship Him and if man doesn't than man will go to hell. If this were the case, God would have just did away with us, and He would have said heck with this creation.
But instead, he manifested Himself into flesh so He could prove His love for man by allowing Himself to go through living on earth in human form, feel everything, every emotion, all that we go through and end in a very painful death so that we, could have forgiveness and salvation so we could be in Heaven with Him.
It's hard at first to get a handle on this, but once you do it will just amaze you to your very inner being. This is something that is just not that simple to grasp without actually going through it yourself.
You know that we don't know what someone elses life is like, unless we could walk in that persons shoes.
As it is for us it was for God, and this is why He did what He did, to go through the experience, and to show and prove His love to humankind.

It may sound unfair, but the battle is between God and Satan, and we got caught in the middle. God also gave man a soul, the most important part of our being. And Satan knew this, he knows that he can not destroy the soul. All he can do is corrupt the soul and cause it to be separated from God. Our soul continues on after death, we can choose to be with God for all eternity or we can choose to be separated from Him for all eternity in darkness and everlasting pain. Satan got jealous of God's creation man, he rebelled because of it. God loves man and Satan felt that and thought God loved His creation more and became jealous. We the flesh, the physical beings, fight a spiritual battle, a battle against unseen forces. If we put God first and put faith in Him through Jesus Christ, that faith gives us the strength to fight this battle here on earth. We have faith as our power against evil, if we choose faith in God.
When God created angels, He gave them a mind of their own, and powers that we don't have, and this is why when an angel fell from God's grace they can not get redemption, He will not forgive the fallen ones, because they are of a higher order.
Life here on earth is just a passing phase for us, life is very short, it is eternal life that matters, that is everything.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

reply to post by hawaii50th

We are in partial agreement, God gave man and woman the freedom to choose, He did not create a race of physical beings to to be without a mind. He created man in His image, if they had chose life over knowledge they would have realized the mind of God, and they could have had eternal life on earth. They made the mistake and chose to be tempted by the lie, from the father of lies. Man and woman had a choice and they made it.

As I tried to explain in my previous post, it is not possible to be tempted unless a desire is already manifest in the mind. In order to be tempted by "knowledge" as opposed to "life with God". a desire for knowledge had to have already been present in the mind of Adam and Eve, and this desire would have had to outweigh any desire for "life with God".

Furthermore, if the desire for knowledge of this world was stronger than the desire to live in God's presence, then I submit that Adam and Eve could not have had consciousness of God in the first place, as this awareness would have trumped any attraction inherent in "knowledge".

All God wanted was for man and woman to worship Him freely, of their own free will, and He would have provided for them.

Whatever God wants, God gets, in my opinion. If God wants man to worship Him freely, then it will happen. Why should this be beyond an omnipotent God?

What about when Jesus is supposed to have said that his sheep shall hear his voice? I take it to mean that God has marked the souls who are to go back to him, and Jesus is the shepherd who is collecting all those marked sheep. Not too much "free will" in that, is there?

It's hard at first to get a handle on this, but once you do it will just amaze you to your very inner being. This is something that is just not that simple to grasp without actually going through it yourself.

Why do you assume that non-christians haven't had this type of experience? Spiritual uplift is available to everyone, I believe. .

It may sound unfair, but the battle is between God and Satan, and we got caught in the middle.

No being, however great, would last an instant in a battle with God, in my opinion. Why would God bother battling a being like the Satan as depicted in the Bible when He could do with him whatever He wills, whenever He wills?

For me, a spiritual or religious teachings needs to be cohesive, at the very least. The biblical scripture seems to raise more questions than it answers satisfactorily, in my view.

reply to post by mysticnoon

Why would God bother battling a being like the Satan as depicted in the Bible when He could do with him whatever He wills, whenever He wills?

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurean Paradox

The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro: "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)

The dilemma has had a major effect on the philosophical theism of the monotheistic religions, but in a modified form: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" This question has presented a problem for theists ever since Plato's original discussion, and it continues to be an object of theological and philosophical discussion today.

Euthyphro Dilemma

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by mysticnoon
Regarding Original Sin, many of the eastern mystic traditions have quite a different perception.

The "original sin" with which man was originally born into this world and still carries within themselves was the seed of desire for self-realization, the desire to know and experience the truth of existence, the soul or self, and all of Reality.

Without this seed of desire, there would be no questioning of who or why we are, no philosophy, no science, no urge to gain knowledge or understanding, no seeking for God or higher mysteries.

In the light of this perspective, it does not make sense that any being or person would sacrifice themselves for the sake of this "Original Sin", because it is this very original sin which propels the soul to seek answers in religions.

First of all, we need to think in a spiritual way and not in human terms. As humans we have limitations, God is Spirit, He has knowledge and understanding that goes beyond our own understanding.
In the garden of Eden, there were two choices, one was knowledge, and the other was life. Knowledge is what we have today, Life is what we could have had where there would have been no sorrow, hate, war, violence, and so on. It would have been perfect, we would be able to talk to God directly, and He would have been among us.

The temptation of knowledge is for us to become vain, and arrogant and wanting to be as gods to control our own destiny and knowing what good and evil is, do you understand my meaning, no harmony.

The angel Lucifer was one of God's creation, Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels, and he had great powers. All of it went to his head, he developed a tremendous ego, and rebelled against God. Lucifer when God banished him from the heavenly places(different dimensions, the Universe, and Heaven itself) made him very angry at God. Now Lucifer in his anger and ego wanted to destroy everything God had created, especially man.
In fact if Lucifer could destroy man, than that would include the earth, another one of God's creation.
Lucifer influenced many other angels to follow him and this is why we are having and always had so much turmoil on this earth. It is a battle of wits between Satan and God, and God will prevail, after all He is the Creator.
Our struggle in life is between the forces of light(good) and darkness(evil), we are influenced by the bad but we can be protected if we accept the good.

I would momentarily like to introduce a dimension of epistemology into this debate, as you seem to rest your own arguments on your own unvalidated absolutes.

When confronted with criticism on that point, you either ignore it, use circular argumentation (mostly in sermon form) or try to wriggle your way out of it by constructing a situation, where you 'only' are a messenger (it's still undecided how far you define yourself as a will-less automaton or not in this process).

When hard pressed, according to the above exchange between you and 'Mysticnoon' (and several times with me), you resort to regressing your position, arguments or general methodology to a new level of absolutes, where the whole perspective, its components and inner coherence are identical to what you left.

Basically you've just changed the labels, and kept the content.

It's ofcourse your choice if you wish to stay in an ever-increasing circular argumentation or choose a mutually agreed communication platform (the last being an offer of dialogue you have rejected several times already). Should you choose the last option, I'm still willing to join you and we can take it up from the last time you made a disappearance-act on that line.

You're still far from the point, where further regression is impossible (such a point DO exist) and any references you presently make to scripture, methodology, interpretation and relationship to what's outside your closed and self-containing system are, even in daily-usage of the word, as subjective as they possibly can be.

To put it plainly, you have sofar not demonstrated any special competence on the related subjects of original sin, redemption, and a possible sacrifice based on anything outside your own mindset.

PS I'll move my interest to this thread and terminate our parallel exchange elsewhere. And 'preaching at me', only results in what you've already seen coming from me.

reply to post by mysticnoon


The original sin was believing that we could be separate from god.
We are the only species on the planet that has come up with such a ridiculous idea. And look what this idea has turned us into.

reply to post by mysticnoon

If Satan is "allowed" to tempt man, then doesn't Satan live within the Will of God? Also, if Satan has chosen the vocation of tempting man, then one would assume that he also enjoys it, so why would he wish to destroy the only source of his enjoyment? This still makes no sense to me.

God allows Satan only so much power, of course he enjoys and takes pleasure in tempting man, all he has left is to try and ruin creation. Satan knows his time is short, and he wants to drag as much of God's creation into the lake of fire with him. Together Satan and his demons will be locked away with the souls of men to be tormented, I know to you it doesn't make sense, but when you got nothing to lose and nothing to gain irrationality has a way of stepping in.
Have you ever heard of a book called, "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis? This book opens up the imagination to get a clue on how the devil thinks.

So God allows Satan to do this thankless temptation task, then annhilates him when he no longer has use for him?

God doesn't annihilate Satan, God locks him up.

Religious cosmologies?

No, not by chance, by God. There has been discoveries by science that the laws of physics are not what they thought it was. Now their writing new laws, discovering a new laws of physics. Many scientist have admitted that there is a God. Galileo wanted to use science to prove the existence of God, but the church wouldn't let him because of their(the churches) ignorance, maybe not, maybe they wanted to hide the real truth to continue to control the people with their Roman Catholic ideas and beliefs.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by mysticnoon

 

The original sin was believing that we could be separate from god.
We are the only species on the planet that has come up with such a ridiculous idea. And look what this idea has turned us into.

What other species on earth has the gift of reason??

reply to post by mysticnoon

You are limiting your mind with human intellect, you can never get the scope of God's mind as long as you live in the box of man's own intellect. We are limited to our thinking without making the spiritual connection to God, it is impossible to even begin to understand.
In the end, I don't think a lot of people want to accept the fact or idea that there is a God. They don't want to accept the fact that they are arrogant in their thinking. They don't want to admit that they are limited to their grasp on a higher power who is God. It is beyond comprehension by most people and that's the way it stands. These are the last days, never in all history has there been this large amount of a rejection of God, and Christ.

May God have mercy on us all.

Quote from Hawaii:

["There has been discoveries by science that the laws of physics are not what they thought it was. Now their writing new laws, discovering a new laws of physics."]

Such as?

Quote: ["Many scientist have admitted that there is a God. "]

Who?

Quote: ["Galileo wanted to use science to prove the existence of God, but the church wouldn't let him because of their(the churches) ignorance, maybe not, maybe they wanted to hide the real truth to continue to control the people with their Roman Catholic ideas and beliefs."]

A few things have happened in science since then. Maybe it would be more relevant to bring the whole subject up-to-date, before any pseudo-science or pseudo-philosophy-of-science emerge.

reply to post by hawaii50th

Together Satan and his demons will be locked away with the souls of men to be tormented, I know to you it doesn't make sense, but when you got nothing to lose and nothing to gain irrationality has a way of stepping in.

The irrationality is evident throughout that entire Satan doctrine, in my opinion, not least of which is why God would create souls out of love only to abandon them to eternal torture if they have no affinity toward a specific religious teaching.

Have you ever heard of a book called, "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis? This book opens up the imagination to get a clue on how the devil thinks.

As a matter of fact, I read it a long time ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. The way Lewis portrays Satan is much closer to the Negative Power (or Mind) of the eastern mystic traditions than the way he is generally portrayed by Christians.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by mysticnoon

 

The original sin was believing that we could be separate from god.
We are the only species on the planet that has come up with such a ridiculous idea. And look what this idea has turned us into.

Touche my friend!!

reply to post by hawaii50th

You are limiting your mind with human intellect, you can never get the scope of God's mind as long as you live in the box of man's own intellect. We are limited to our thinking without making the spiritual connection to God, it is impossible to even begin to understand.

I agree that the intellect alone is limited in its capacity to understand the nature of God. However, if we discard reason in the search for truth, then how are we to discern fact from fantasy, illusion from reality, good from bad, and so forth?

In the end, I don't think a lot of people want to accept the fact or idea that there is a God.

I think you will find that those who accept the idea of God are more likely in the majority in the world, at least according to most estimates that I could source online.

They don't want to accept the fact that they are arrogant in their thinking.

And you have never encountered a believer in God who is arrogant in their thinking?

They don't want to admit that they are limited to their grasp on a higher power who is God.

Ironically, the ones who do admit to a limitation in their ability to grasp God are those who already believe.

It is beyond comprehension by most people and that's the way it stands. These are the last days, never in all history has there been this large amount of a rejection of God, and Christ.

"These are the last days" is a warning which has been repeated by your christian brethren since the time of Christ. These last days have stretched into centuries and millenia, and I am convinced they will stretch out for many more.

As to rejection of God, I think it is more the dogmatic religions which may be being rejected, and not God as a universal concept.

reply to post by mysticnoon

I agree that the intellect alone is limited in its capacity to understand the nature of God. However, if we discard reason in the search for truth, then how are we to discern fact from fantasy, illusion from reality, good from bad, and so forth?

I'm only speaking in terms to know God, and the only way to Him is by faith. When we were children we had faith in our parents, the same goes for God, He is the ultimate parent only His love for us is perfect.

I think you will find that those who accept the idea of God are more likely in the majority in the world, at least according to most estimates that I could source online.

If that is so, than that's a good thing.

And you have never encountered a believer in God who is arrogant in their thinking?

Yes I have, I know this guy that truly believes in God, but his personal view and understanding on what God says about how husbands should be to their wives stink. He has the male chauvinist attitude and has it all wrong of how God teaches men to treat their wives, and how to love them.

Ironically, the ones who do admit to a limitation in their ability to grasp God are those who already believe.

I only know those that admit to not knowing everything about God, including myself. It is impossible to know everything, only when we pass through death and make it to heaven will we know all.

"These are the last days" is a warning which has been repeated by your christian brethren since the time of Christ. These last days have stretched into centuries and millenia, and I am convinced they will stretch out for many more.

We have been in the last days since Jesus Christ ascended to heaven. This is the part that many don't understand. Time is irrelevant, to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Take the creation of earth. It is written that the earth was created in seven days, if we were able to be there during the creation of the earth and live long enough to witness it, it would have taken say 7 thousand, or 70 thousand years. To us that is a long time, but to God it's like yesterday, or a few hours ago. We can't comprehend that reality in our physical existence. It's like looking up in the sky at a star at night, the light of that star may not exist anymore and yet we can still see the light that it gave off. If it were possible to travel to that point where the star once existed what would we find? Like I said before, our minds are limited to what we can understand, because there are more than one reality and many dimensions that go beyond our comprehension, we are very little in this vast universe and beyond.

As to rejection of God, I think it is more the dogmatic religions which may be being rejected, and not God as a universal concept.

Man made religion is the to blame if you like, and or the cause to the misconceptions that we have today. Not Christianity itself, which is the teachings of Christ.

reply to post by hawaii50th

We have been in the last days since Jesus Christ ascended to heaven. This is the part that many don't understand. Time is irrelevant, to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.

I follow what you are saying. However, the phrase, "in the last days", is commonly understood as being imminent, or occuring within this generation at the most. So to use the "last days" phrase without that thousand years delineation is, at best, misleading.

Of course, it is not nearly as threatening to people to say we could be within the last few thousand years of our world as we know it, so I understand why this "last days" tactic is preferred.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

We have been in the last days since Jesus Christ ascended to heaven. This is the part that many don't understand. Time is irrelevant, to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day.

I follow what you are saying. However, the phrase, "in the last days", is commonly understood as being imminent, or occuring within this generation at the most. So to use the "last days" phrase without that thousand years delineation is, at best, misleading.

Of course, it is not nearly as threatening to people to say we could be within the last few thousand years of our world as we know it, so I understand why this "last days" tactic is preferred.

edit on 19-3-2011 by mysticnoon because: (no reason given)

No body knows the day or the hour, but it is imminent, we just don't know when. But if we can understand prophecy through God's wisdom, it is possible to understand, some of it is very plain and straight forward. Many of the signs already took place, and many of the signs are prevalent today, and many signs have yet to come.

We are told to not be afraid of what is to come, and that we who hold faith in Christ will not suffer these tribulations. We are also told to be joyful as the days come closer to Christ return. Look up and fear not, the Lord's return is near.

Originally posted by bogomil
Quote from Hawaii:

["There has been discoveries by science that the laws of physics are not what they thought it was. Now their writing new laws, discovering a new laws of physics."]

Such as?

Quote: ["Many scientist have admitted that there is a God. "]

Who?

Quote: ["Galileo wanted to use science to prove the existence of God, but the church wouldn't let him because of their(the churches) ignorance, maybe not, maybe they wanted to hide the real truth to continue to control the people with their Roman Catholic ideas and beliefs."]

A few things have happened in science since then. Maybe it would be more relevant to bring the whole subject up-to-date, before any pseudo-science or pseudo-philosophy-of-science emerge.

Two scientific models are gaining ground: The Electric Universe model, for which, see thunderbolts.com, and Hyperdimensional Pysics, for which see theenterprisemission.com. The electric universe model is fairly easy to understand, but hyperdimensional physics is hard to get your mind around.

There are a lot of theistic scientists, they just get drowned out by this other group which constantly reiterates its position both loudly and shrilly. I have a book listing many, but it's not coming to hand just now...