Can China Invade Taiwan?

BB and chinawhite are the same but on different sides of the coin.

Originally posted by Char2c35t
BB and chinawhite are the same but on different sides of the coin.

Char2c35t

excuse me?

Which information do i post that is overly bias?

What is the excuse of this slander



If you feel this way about it, a debate should be in order.?

You keen on that

[edit on 14-10-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by bodebliss


I seen a recent poll done in Taiwan where 80% did not consider themselves chinese. They consider themselves Taiwanese first and foremost.

Links would be nice.

It doesn't matter of they think they are they are HAN chinese.

I was born on the mainland and never been anywhere else and i can speak their native language.

Does that make me taiwanese

Originally posted by Odium
bodebliss, you can't just have it your way. Either China picks on the weak and you admit to posting misleading information earlier [Where they were willing to risk it all against America.] or you were posting false information earlier when you said they only picked on the weak.

It's not both of them, it can't be.

Who have they waged war on lately: tibet, mongolia, vietnam, india, russia, south korea.

vietnam, india, russia, south korea were draws. Big china no umph!

So what did they do? They went home and beat the kids and wife(cruelty to their own populations).

US directly...they backed down. Japan secret sub incursions....they backed down.

The CCP(bandits asthe KMT called them) preys on the weak.

Originally posted by bodebliss
Who have they waged war on lately: tibet, mongolia, vietnam, india, russia, south korea.
vietnam, india, russia, south korea were draws. Big china no umph!

YOu dont get it do you.

World opinion is aganist violence.

If it wasn't there would be a lot more wars or genocides happening.

More kosovos, uganda, sudan.

So what did they do? They went home and beat the kids and wife(cruelty to their own populations).

Do you find that funny?

US directly...they backed down. Japan secret sub incursions....they backed down.

EP-3. the US was forced to apologize.

The japanese wanted a apology for the riots in china. They got nothing.


What did china back down from?

So, ChinaWhite and BB are different sides of coin? I geuss I'm the moderate of the bunch neh?

There's some stuff I wanna comment on but my next class beckons.

bodebliss, has America not done the same?

Iraq? Afganistan? Oh my those were two "oh so strong" Nation's.

So maybe, like many larger Nation's they pick wars with smaller Nation's when there is no risk to their own National Defence? Nothing new...been done thousands of times.

Originally posted by bodebliss
Who have they waged war on lately: tibet, mongolia, vietnam, india, russia, south korea.

vietnam, india, russia, south korea were draws.

Hmm they waged war on Russia? Never heard of that one. And I wouldn't call Russia weak.

India, if you refer to the 1962 war, China won and gained territory.

South Korea, it wasn't just against South Korea, it was against like the whole UN including the US. I wouldn't call the UN or the US weak either, and it's pretty impressive that China was able to push the UN all the way back to the North/South Korea border after they have taken over almost the entire North Korea.

[edit on 14-10-2005 by Taishyou]

Hi, fellows,

I am puri from China. Glad this thread is still going strong. I did a few posts on this thread, most about politic-dynamics. Yu think what you are thinking of is everyone else is thinking of? Wrong.

Chinese theoriticians and military experts don't waste much time on these twisted thoughts. Here are what they are busy with:

Text
Text Red

!!!!!Ten ways to sink American Carriers!!!!!

1. Cruise missile strike (Hongniao-III, with a range of 2,500 km) - the least expensive way, also the least likely way to achieve satisfactory results.

--Readily available capability.

2. saturated air strikes - the hardway and the bloody way, in the sense of penaltrating the almighty Ageis? systems of the destroyers. It is believed that about 120 JH-7s (1200 km in combat diameter) carrying 240 supersonic C803s (Yingji 12) anti-ship missiles are the standards launch number for any single wave of strikes (American carrier warbirds take off one at a time? the same to their landing). Also the most practiced way by Navy airforce. Heavy losses are kind of expected on the attacking side, but the results are considered almost assured.

--Readily available capability.

3. Fleet-to-fleet battle: the most avoided way! Chinese surface ships are no match of American surface groups. If the Americans somehow succeeded in forcing the Chinese small surface group to engage, The only thing that the CHinese captains can hope is try launch a few decent soviet supersonic anti-ship missles before they are all sent to the bottom. Maybe one or two of these missiles will get lucky and find their targets. After all, the Chinese ships may still have a chance, each of the warships can have a pack of fishing boats armed with anti-missileand anti-aircraft weapons as bodyshields. Anyway, I think its just a matter of time before they all go under. the questions is, how long they could hold and how many American ships they can drag down with them.

--Readily available capability, though not the way they expect to spend.

3. Submarine wolf-pack: Boasted as the most potent weapens against carriers groups. But It could prove to be one of the rare occassions of CHinese underestimation of American capabilities - specifically the anti-submarine capabilities. The results are hard to judge, it could be an one-sided victory for either side, depending on how advanced the CHinese submarines are and if they can develop and deploy the fancied superfast long-range torpedo. (Submarines are always the most effective anti-submarine weapon. But the 13-plus American nuclear attacking subs may found them in a marine jungle - the rugged terrains under the shallow water off CHinese coast.

--Readily available capability, its importance only next to China's Assassin's mace!

5. Whale/dolphin attack: the funnist way! Whales and dolphins, I ain't making no mistakes here. Judging by appearances, they look like sea mammals, swim like sea mammals (a bit slower and more dump). They are actually roaming torpedos with synthetic shark skins, non-metal structures, soft bodies, and of course high-explosives, sensors and batteries.

--In development and testing. May be enough to win a a round, but definitely not to win a war. American navy will shoot and kill all the mammals in the ocean once they find out about this trick. Anyway, it would be highly entertaining to read about a whale attacking a warship!

6. Concerted three-dimension strike: the most complicated and tech-intensive way! Strikes are launched from air, surface and underwater. Chinese are drilling on this in small scale. Once mastered, it could be highly effective.

--In the making, depending on how long it will take for them to sort out the joint-command and info-sharing systems.

7. Mediium-range Ballistic missile attack (conventional war heads): the least expected way that could render American battle groups totally helpless. The theory is let the war heads explode above the high sky of the american groups, making a rain of small metal bombs at the speed of 5 or 7 machs. The good side is ,any ship hit would easily lost combat capability, the bad side is, ballistic missiles can always miss a target as small as a carrier, and sprayed mini-bombs could hardly sink any ships.

--In development. not testd yet!

8. Seabed mines: Sitting quietly on the seabed of the deep ocean, these deadly mines are designed to lay ambush against the carriers. It is reported one mine is enough to sink a carrier in the event of a direct hit. They need outside signals to be waken up and sprung into action. Again, the batteries could die before they ever had a chance on their prays, and you can't gruarantee that a carrier would be dump enough to pass on their turf.

--Readily available capability.

9. Stealth missile boats attack: China newly developed stealth twin-body 500-ton missile boats, and is going to build a large pack of it. Its highest speed at 50 knots, and carries 12 anti-ship missiles. The most remarkble way of it is the combat range (800++ kms). It's anti-air capability is almost none, but could still be a lethal weapon in an offshore conflit.

--Tested, not yet fully deployed.

10. Nuclear strike: Delivered by the medium-range ballistic missile. Would render any ships into floating coffins (or sunk coffins). Its use is highly unlikely. I don't have to explain why.

Readily available capability.

I collected these information from Chinese military websites such as www.warchina.com.

No disrespect to the US Navy. Just to share with you some of the general sentiments and thoughts among PLA generals and staff officers.

All I can say is thats a nice list but the US Navy is very aware of all those threats and are developing or have developed counter measures.

The most amazing weapon is a rapid fire 37mm iirc that throws a wall of lead out at the incoming missiles that the missile slams into breaking it up. The chinese subs are all well known by the US and very noisy compared, the term tagged and bagged is often used to describe them. Thats just the US subs not figuring in the new antisub helicopter and planes that are coming out. The Nuke strike would be the most costly of all the means of world reaction and US nuclear responce on China, every boomer that is in range of china would launch plus other weapons systems that we dont know about. The whale attack can be countered by strong sonar that debilitates the creature making them head to shore.

I am not saying that the US fleet is unsinkable but it will be hard to do but thats just one fleet there are many carrier fleets that would be deployed, if they knew an attack was coming they would move a lot of subs to protect the groups too. The US could use a couple of groups to protect the fleets using the super hornets to partol for the j7s which i am sure the aegis would pick up very early if not destroy thier electronics. IIRC there are 5 rings of protection around the groups, someone with more experience and knowledge could explain it a lot better.

The phallanx anti-missile system is being replaced as they can not keep up with the newer anti-ship missiles.

Thats a nice list the way it would work would be the combined attack on a single group.

Makes me wonder about the capibility of the CHinese to protect thier own soon to be done Aircraft Carrier groups.

Its possibly between 10-20 years should the conflict happen then that we would have several carrier fleets of our own and have assertained new ways to go around your counter measures.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Its possibly between 10-20 years should the conflict happen then that we would have several carrier fleets of our own and have assertained new ways to go around your counter measures.

The same would happen to the americans. We can go back and forth all night with ifs BTW..

Originally posted by puri
5. Whale/dolphin attack: the funnist way! Whales and dolphins, I ain't making no mistakes here. Judging by appearances, they look like sea mammals, swim like sea mammals (a bit slower and more dump). They are actually roaming torpedos with synthetic shark skins, non-metal structures, soft bodies, and of course high-explosives, sensors and batteries.

--In development and testing. May be enough to win a a round, but definitely not to win a war. American navy will shoot and kill all the mammals in the ocean once they find out about this trick. Anyway, it would be highly entertaining to read about a whale attacking a warship!

lol! I love this method! Reminds me of Red Alert 2. China should develop giant octopuses too!

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Its possibly between 10-20 years should the conflict happen then that we would have several carrier fleets of our own and have assertained new ways to go around your counter measures.

The same would happen to the americans. We can go back and forth all night with ifs BTW..

... well that is a complication to be sure, but keep in mind that the race for parity slows down as the up and coming industrial power comes close to global state of the art (it is always easier to work from an established base rather than from a fresh slate so to speak. ... and of course, this has to factor in whether the lead country (the US) lets such a lead fall to the wayside ... as opposed to continuing the present course of leadership in military R&D.

Hey , how about it. How about taking a look at the real reason for CCP threats against Taiwan. The real reason for the threats is not a desire for unification. The real reason is the CCP sees a threat everytime Taiwan makes the papers with it's democracy. It's biggest threats have come . When Lee teng-hui went to the US and spoke about democracy in China. When elections were first held and when the gov't changed hands and when referendums were first held.

Thanks to international and US support, and the Taiwanese people's pursuit of democracy and their faith in being their own masters, Beijing was forced to restrain itself, Lee said.

Lee reminded the outside world that the true intention of China's threat to attack Taiwan by force under its fake purpose of unification was actually to cover up the irrationality and fragility of its authoritarian rule, which was highlighted by Taiwan's democratization.

Lee urged the US to help Taiwan break free of its international isolation, so that it can build normal relations with neighboring countries and become a full member of international society.

www.taipeitimes.com...

The CCP is so afraid of democracy it is shakeing in it's boots and rattling it's saber.

The Chinese Embassy in Wash-ington has complained to the National Press Club about the club's decision to invite former president Lee Teng-hui (李登輝) to speak there next week, but its bid to get the club to drop the invitation was unsuccessful.

The deputy chief of mission, Zheng Zeguang (鄭澤光), telephoned the head of the club's speakers committee, Peter Hickman, earlier this week, urging him to drop the invitation, but Hickman said that he refused to do so.

www.taipeitimes.com...









[edit on 10/15/2005 by bodebliss]

The missles arrayed against Taiwan may not be very effective.

The missiles China has deployed are all unguided and weigh less than a tonne. Lacking guidance and navigation, the missiles' targeting accuracy is significantly reduced, and so is its destruction. Blindly shooting million-dollar missiles against Taiwan is extremely uneconomical. Simply put, except for making hundreds of holes in the ground, missiles will not sink Taiwan.

www.taipeitimes.com...

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
So, ChinaWhite and BB are different sides of coin? I geuss I'm the moderate of the bunch neh?

How am i the extreme of the chinese?

In Alexis de Tocqueville's The Old Regime and the Revolution, one sees similarities between pre-revolutionary France and China today. Some of the following ideas from this book should suffice to demonstrate this.

First, revolutions don't necessarily break out under worsening situations. As laws are relaxed, the people who are formerly oppressed rise up.

Second, the most dangerous time for despotic governments is periods of political reform.

Third, when the people are suppressed, they can see no way out. All it takes is for someone to stand up and make his or her voice heard, and the people will no longer accept their situation.

Fourth, when certain injustices are removed, people become aware of other injustices that are still prevalent, and this will rile them. Their awareness will become all the more keen the better their conditions are.

Fifth, prosperity stirs up the desire for accumulation of more property and wealth in the minds of the populace.

Sixth, people want to invest and amass wealth, and to run their own businesses. With increased access to the media, they are no longer prepared to accept the hardships they would have borne 30 years ago.

Seventh, 20 years ago people felt no hope for the future: Nowadays they are no longer intimidated by the future.

So China's collapse does not appear so groundless. The problem Taiwan faces is how to deal with the aftermath

www.taipeitimes.com...

Fifth, prosperity stirs up the desire for accumulation of more property and wealth in the minds of the populace.

Sixth, people want to invest and amass wealth, and to run their own businesses. With increased access to the media, they are no longer prepared to accept the hardships they would have borne 30 years ago.

That's exactly what people in China are getting, and that's exactly why they don't hate the CCP. As long as the economy grows and everybody's getting rich by the hour, nobody gives a damn about what other things the CCP does. It's capitalism.

People also like the CCP because it's a badass government, not like a bunch of lovey-dovey hippies. They do whatever it takes to get what they want for their country, they don't yield to other countries. It's the same as George Bush, just over half of Americans voted for him cos hes a badass cowboy, he's not like the "liberal weiner." I'd say that during the late 19th and early 20th century when China was invaded by foreign powers, many more Chinese became right wing. They want to get back at the foreigners, and the CCP is the perfect tool for them to get what they want.

[edit on 15-10-2005 by Taishyou]

The brittish sent troops 3 times to our shores. We forgave and now have seemed to forgot.

China must grow spiritually as well. Democracy might help.