Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by bodebliss
Sorry it only appears to be 91.9%. Your wrong.

Only 91.9%. It is higher than the figure he put.

The 98% is for taiwan

These areas would drop away with more freedom.

Whats the pyhisical difference between an hui and a han chinese?

China is still in the age of empires. It is not a modern country. It is not even in the 20 th century politically. It must re linquish it's conquered territories to attain normalcy. Till that time it will be at odds with itself and the world.

Like asking a juvenile thief, did you take something that does not belong to you?

All the while the juvenile thief denying his wrong, even with the evidence before him.

Shame on China! Shame on China!

Originally posted by bodebliss
China is still in the age of empires. It is not a modern country. It is not even in the 20 th century politically. It must re linquish it's conquered territories to attain normalcy. Till that time it will be at odds with itself and the world.

Can the U.S. do the same?
United Kingdom also? All the rest?

Originally posted by bodebliss
Shame on China! Shame on China!

Shame on you! Shame on you!

I don't know of any conquered territory held by the U.S.

Brittain has lost it's empire.

China is next.

Originally posted by bodebliss
I don't know of any conquered territory held by the U.S.

Iraq? Afganistan? While their Army is still in there, the Government doesn't have any power when the Army can take it right from them.

Also American Civil War?

Those indigenous people?

Originally posted by bodebliss
Brittain has lost it's empire.

Yes, we do not own any Island's...none whatsoever.

Originally posted by bodebliss
China is next.

Glad to know you can see into the future.

Well you know so much about the Civil War, huh?

Did you know the South attacked first after our president did everything , but bend over backward to keep from fighting?

Americans can't wait to leave Afganistan and Iraq.

Indigenous peoples took those lands recently from other indians which they killed or drove off. Most of the lands were hunting grounds which were often claimed by multiple tribes. The West was a battle ground long before white people arrived. Indigenous people were in danger of eventually being wiped out by a burgeoning population of settlers.

Yes, their treatment in captivity was bad. They are making a comeback population and politically wise, and making headways in the courts of our land.

Justice will be served!

Say the same for China? Hah!

bodebliss, no level of justice will resulted in bringing back the millions of people that was killed.

If you want to see China and its 'land' given back to the people they took it from, you have to push it across the spectrum. As for Native American's killing each other off...that is laughable. How much do you know about the alliances of the time?

Yes they had wars, but no more than in Europe and we are not all dead.

The Iroquoi wiped out the Erie indians before white settlers arrived.

www.angelfire.com...

Read and learn:

members.tripod.com...

When Columbus landed in the Americas there were an estimated 25 million native americans, but by the times of the indian wars there were 1 million

White settlers didn't wipe out the indians diseases brought by the Spanish conquistadors did.

"1540
A Spanish expedition led by Hernando de Soto explores the western portions of present-day North Carolina, looking for gold. De Soto and his men visit Indian communities and probably introduce smallpox and other deadly European diseases to the native populations."

nc.history.museum...

bodebliss, I know what they did but we did the same in Europe look at the United Kingdom as an example of it and the different tribes which once existed here.

The point you are trying to make isn't valid, they would not have all been killed off and also it is there land. There is no difference between what China did and America.

So if you want China to give its land back the same has to be said, you can't use such double standards.

Edit:

Also the population estimates range from 8 million to over 100million. Nobody actually knows for sure how many millions were once there. [Denevan.]

[edit on 9/10/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by bodebliss
When Columbus landed in the Americas there were an estimated 25 million native americans, but by the times of the indian wars there were 1 million
White settlers didn't wipe out the indians diseases brought by the Spanish conquistadors did.

You still took their land. It doesn't matter what you say the land is now gone.

Dont use double standards to judge other people

[edit on 9-10-2005 by chinawhite]

"You still took their land"

Chinawhite,

I took no one's lands. I have paid many large sums for my lands. Legally they are mine. I owe no one.

Second highest official of China runs from one-man protest!

It is because of shame. How can the big man play big with such a little heart. His face is smitted with the truth. So he must hide like little girl.

Chinese official flees
The second highest ranking member in the Chinese government missed a ceremonial Maori welcome at the New Zealand Parliament on Thursday in order to dodge a one-man protest over Tibet by a local politician. New Zealand police refused a demand by security guards with Wu Bangguo (吳邦國), chairman of China's National People's Congress, to remove Rod Donald, co-leader of the Green Party in Parliament, who stood at the red-carpeted steps of the building holding a Tibetan flag as he arrived.

www.taipeitimes.com...

he's wasn't running away from anyone, he was simply avoiding a confrontation with a man whose only purpose was to cause unsettlement and harassment. Nothing can come out of a conversation with political garbage.

Originally posted by bodebliss
"You still took their land"

Chinawhite,

I took no one's lands. I have paid many large sums for my lands. Legally they are mine. I owe no one.

And?

The Chinese Government pay tax into that region, so they in turn own the land due to money?

I kind of came into theis conversation late, but after reading a few pages I should be informed enough to make this responce.


Empires have risen and fallen throughout history, with circumstance directing when and how it fell, but the success of how long an Empire lasted usually depended on certain things.

The ability of the Empire to organize its population, to maintain a census, organize an effective and well trained standing peace time army.

And the ability to merge and assimilate various conquered ethnic groups and keep them "Romanized" for centuries at a time, destroying national identity, language, and culture in order to assure that they remain homogeneous with the culture that overpowered them, with few exceptions.

And thirdly the ability to maintain a large economy that can evolve through changing circumstances, the method of government is irrelevant for as long as it can change with the times as well.

There have been in history only 5 "True" Empires that not only fall under these definitions but were also moderately successful enough to go in the list.

The Roman Empire. circa 753 BC to 476 AD (the Fall of Rome under Romulus Augustus).

The British Empire and its Common Wealth: (uncertain of the date but I’d date it at the British victory at the Plains of Abraham 1759).

The American Empire. Circa 1774-present

The Empire of the Russia's from the rise of Muscovy to the fall of the USSR.

And finally, the most successful Empire has been China.


Why these five? It is simple, and I'll take a page from Orson Scott Card, there is a concept I've heard about it and this is it. A nation can be fundamentally described in 2 ways: Edge nations, and Center nations, Center nations are nations who have after wars to secure their hinterland become a dominant regional power and through a arrogance of culture maintain a "central outlook" on the world and have the opinion that everyone wants to be just like them, center nations are usually large and successful Empires who frequent few wars and whose culture, ideals, and history will have a lasting effect through millennia.

Center nations also have a large enduring culture, and when invaded can either easily fend off the invasion or endure the invasion and swallow the enemy into their own culture.

Edge Nations, are nations on the edge of the center, who feel like the under dogs, feel like they've been denied their rightful place and usually always try to gain it by the sword.

Edge nations on occasion conquer territory and by luck or their own innovation keep their territory and become Edge nations themselves (Rome, Russia), however most of the time Edge Nations fail and with usually catastrophic results (Japan/WWII).

The 5 I've mentioned are Center Nations, or were edge nations that became Center. While at least most of them had fallen at one time or another they're influence lives on thus proving the Centerness of them. Britain conquered a massive area through the subjugation of native peoples with advanced weaponry or through negotiations with foreign powers, sometimes it was just through the foundation of protectorates. While the actual worth of most of those lands actually varies considerably, the achievements during England’s occupation of those areas deserve praise. An example would be the setting up of a considerable infrastructure in the Indian Sub Continent with universities and courts of laws, the establishment of Hong Kong as a major business center, Singapore, South Africa, Canada etc.

Though England through fault of their own or circumstance eventually gave away most of its Empire (they could of kept it but only at great cost to themselves), collapsed mostly because they're Empire was too great and the debts too great to maintain a navy big enough to take on any two other navies.

The Romans were the second most successful, by creating one of the first great bureaucracies capable of actually maintaining an Empire in the wake of constant military advancement of retreat, incompetent Emperors and a corrupt senate, the Roman Empire through a very tolerant view of the religious beliefs of conquered peoples. and the existence of varying forms of citizenship and with a society that rewards good work with freedom, the Roman Empire did a phenomenal job at running itself. However such an Empire got too big even for itself and lacking its own "glasnost" it could not possibly reform itself in time to changing conditions and barbarian invasions.

The Empire of all the Russia's... Czarist Russia lasted from the reign of Czar Ivan the Terrible to the break up of the Soviet Union. It had effectively through the Russofication of the Asiatic, and European tribes it had conquered, through the importing of western ideas, and the economic development of Russia in the periods of Peter the Great, Catherine the Great and Stalin allowed Russia to dominate its area of the Old World's landmass for a long long time.

The effect of the Orthodox Church, the Influence of the Russian school of military thought, the very strength and diversity of Russian culture allowed it to not only conquer and dominate its way to global power but also to merge and assimilate (somewhat successfully) all the various ethnic groups until the Break up of the Soviet Union when all the various Republics wanted to affirm their Independence, once and for all.

America is truly a testimony to what an Empire truly is, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, America through a few bitter wars managed to not only secure its hinterland, but also managed through its own policies of democracy was able to successfully transform itself into a center nation, arrogant enough to believe that everyone wants to be just like them, resisting invasion successfully, and with a resilient enough economy to balance home grown problems and maintain the arms race simultaneously.

But America's greatest success is how quickly and successfully America managed to turn every immigrant family that lands in America into true American's in under a generation is astounding, and thanks to all that America in the 90's was an Empire in its prime but alas, America is easily in its decline, with a massive debt reminiscent of the Reagan Era, with wars every few years costing billions per year America's fall is imminent. However, considering the times it won't be catastrophic though, the best that could happen is that America falls into decline and hangs back, considering that Empires that try to hold onto power end up doing terrible things in the hopes of holding onto an illusion of power.

And finally, the most successful, yet the most unique case is Zhongguo [joong-gwor] meaning literally "The Middle Kingdom" or called China from the roots of the Qing Dynasty.

China I believe was the most successful because like any Center Nation had secured its hinterland (See the First Emperor (Qin Shi Huang) on Wikipedia)) when it first Unified under the Qin, and it maintained a largely homogeneous population "Han Chinese" throughout history, through the colonization and farming of new lands, the conquest and assimilation of new people's.

Proof that China is easily a center nation if the fact that the Mongols became Chinese themselves under Kublai Khan until they were overthrown and a new dynasty founded and since then Mongolia has been considered as part of China at one time or another.

Thus through the assimilation and merging of different people's and the establishment of a central authority and bureaucracy, and through evolving of Chinese culture and language to what it is today all point to China to have been the largest and single most coherent national entity in the world, through command language and currency, history, resisting of Barbarian invasions, China has not only maintained its Independence and Culture but the very essence and ideals that made China "All Under Heaven" for us.

China, to date has never been conquered and assimilated into another culture but instead when defeated simply buys or assimilates the invader, China has won and lost wars but mostly won them when it was important to win them. China has avoided colonization through the replacement of the old and obslete Imperial family the "Manchu" and after defeating the KMT for the leadership of the country the CCP now is leader China to a new century, China is evolving constantly and will once more reach greatness soon, the thoughts of a few ignorant and lofty intellectuals changes nothing. History is guided by the People, and nothing can change that.

So in conclusion stop spouting nonesense, stop spouting propoganda drivel, and stop thinking that because you wish it so you'll change it so.

"Nothing can come out of a conversation with political garbage. "

He is a duly elected member of New Zealand's parliament. I guess in China where they just take protesters out and shoot them, the #2 man doesn't have to see such things.

wow! Are you actually going to comment what I had just put forward or ignore it because its uncomfortable?

As for that New Zealand politician, last time I check he was from a small party in NZ politics and is doubtless only doing it for political gain.

People who truly understood the situation wouldn't even dare try to get Tibetan Independance, though there are those who do understand but only as far as it lines their pockets.

Please remember that your OPINION is based on thin ice, read a few history books and try to understand politics and the history behind them.

Do you even think that even a fraction of the world would care about Tibet if China had been America's ally?

Its all politics and strategems, smoke and mirrors, get over it, the fate of Tibet was sealed long ago.

"America in the 90's was an Empire in its prime but alas, America is easily in its decline, with a massive debt reminiscent of the Reagan Era, with wars every few years costing billions per year America's fall is imminent. However, considering the times it won't be catastrophic though, the best that could happen is that America falls into decline and hangs back, considering that Empires that try to hold onto power end up doing terrible things in the hopes of holding onto an illusion of power. "

America does not have a physical empire to throw off. People around the world love American culture and take it on by choice. America may have it's problems, but it is still the world's only superpower. America has a shortage of energy resources only because we stopped building oil refineries that will be amended. Nuclear power will be revived. We will build solar power stations on the Moon and in orbit and become a exporter of energy to the world in the form of hydrogen(China does not have the water for that).


You talk about ancient history as if it were your own. Haah! The red guard were book burners and culture wreckers the only vestige of old china that's left is in Taiwan and Hong Kong. China is so overburdened it will fall under it's own weight.It will fall and America will reinvent itself once more. China will be ruble and America will be a shining city on the hill.

Go practice your propaganda somewhere else. It falls on deaf ears here. i am immune to such words.

Have you ever been to China? Just as during the Warring States Period there have been book burnings but not 100% of such books were burned msot of them even survived and were revived a generation later.

At book book burnings would have burned 10% of such books AT MOST.

China has a great culture, an innovative ecnomy that IS GROWING AT AN ACCELERATED RATE look it up in the CIA world factbook or wikipedia if you doubt me.

Frankly, you've just proved to me with your ignorance that you have no clue about what your talking about, your just spouting lies and right wing garbage in the hopes of winning points.

And geuss what, no one cares, the leaders in Beijing don't care about what YOU a yang guizi thinks. They only care about what certain governments thinks, but governments, especially democratic ones ran by money grubers like Bush are predictable and easily swayed to your opinion. And if you think what your government cares about what you have to say ESPECIALLY if it contradicts their policy to line their pockets with your money then you truly do not have any understanding of not only my country but yours as well, which brings up another point, if you don't even know what goes on in your country, what right do you have to tell other governments to do what you want them to do?

By now, the purpose of Bodebliss on this thread is certain that he is here just to post BS.

Can't you have a normal conversation? I've been out of this for six months just because of people like this, people who are so narrow minded and can't adapt to reality.