'Damn right' I personally ordered waterboarding: Bush

Originally posted by airspoon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If I were told lives could be saved by torturing a criminal, for the sake of the lives that could be saved I'd be inclined to do the same. But I admit that's conjecture at this point.

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." --Thomas Paine
US patriot & political philosopher (1737 - 1809)

Tell me this then, are the 9/11 hijackers justified in their actions, simply because they too were probably told it would save lives in the long run? There is a reason that we have moral principals and set standards based on those principals.

Furthermore, it is questionable at best, if the practice even saves lives, though there is a really good argument for the opposite, to where it will endanger American lives and it doesn't take a scientist or scholar to figure that out. No6t only does it put our own soldiers -my brothers- in harm's way, but it also strengthens "their" case against us and boosts their recruitment.

Tell me, were the Nazis justified in their torture? What about the Soviets, Iranians or North Koreans? I'm sure the citizens of those countries who also participated in torture believed that their cause was justified too.

I dunno, hard decision to make.

It's not really. You do what is right, otherwise you are no better than those you are fighting against. What would then give us the right to fight or argue against their cause or moral principals if our own are no better?


--airspoon

Waaaaaaah get out a tissue. I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training. If I really thought I could do this and save hundreds or thousands of lives, you bet I'd be hard pressed to refrain from doing it.

reply to post by NeverApologize


" Water Boarding is NOT, terrible."

Yea, but it is against all kids of laws.. international, and there were these pre 9/11 American virtues, uuhh,..some damn pieces of crappy paper mentioning "cruel and unusual punishment", "rights of the accused", "innocent until proven guilty".. stuff like that.

Look, I get it.. the 1930s German nationalism mindset is stronger than a pimp hand these days.. long live your party leader and all that.. but water boarding is torture, torture is un-American, torture is illegal, torture is wrong regardless of who or why.. be it Tojo, Hitler or their PIC bush.. all historic infamous b-holes brother of torturing innocent people "in the name of (insert cause/propaganda)".

Torturing some innocent dude to save a city from doom?.. lol.. laughable "24" story line fiction "as seen on TV".. nobody believes that uber neo-drama actually happens.

And guess what else?.. the US govt says Geneva rights depend on your resistance to fascism fashion sense: if you dress govt military sheik while fighting the Federal reserve Armed forces.. you get rights. BUT, wear corporate Americas latest, well...paraphrasing the soup nazi: "No rights for you!". Lets say US citizens awake in mass to the 2 party / federal reserve paper money sham.. and revolt.. what attire are US citizens likely to don?.. Uniforms or the "rightless" Nike gear they're paying off at 33%?.. so don't forget, you cant surrender to an Apache.

Ibn Ishaq 595 - Muhammad orders that a man have his tongue cut out.


Ibn Ishaq 764 - After amassing a powerful army, Muhammad sent his forces to take the peaceful farming community of Khaybar by surprise. In the aftermath, he was dissatisfied with the amount of plunder and felt that the town’s treasurer, Kinana, might be holding out on him. He had the man brought to him:

When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.”

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Whenever the muslim extreme terrorist change there stance on tortoure get back to me.. Until then I'm not going to care about a few of them getting waterboarded.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Waaaaaaah get out a tissue. I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training. If I really thought I could do this and save hundreds or thousands of lives, you bet I'd be hard pressed to refrain from doing it.

They waterboarded KSM 183 times in just one month. In the end he confessed to plotting to blow up buildings that weren't even built when they captured him. Useless.

Waterboarding may not be the worst form of torture, but I hope that people haven't forgotten that several detainees were actually beaten to death.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Waaaaaaah get out a tissue. I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training. If I really thought I could do this and save hundreds or thousands of lives, you bet I'd be hard pressed to refrain from doing it.

But it will not save any lives. It will not do any good for anyone. It is nice to think torturing a bad guy might save lives but it is also nice to think that cats fart gold bars.

reply to post by thecinic

Whenever the muslim extreme terrorist change there stance on tortoure get back to me.. Until then I'm not going to care about a few of them getting waterboarded.

No, I said how does that justify torture>? How does someone else torturing, justify torture?

Think think think, we all have brain therefore I'm sure you have one too.

That being said, how does terrorists torturing justify torture?

Why do you want to be like them, if you hate them?

Originally posted by thecinic
Whenever the muslim extreme terrorist change there stance on tortoure get back to me.. Until then I'm not going to care about a few of them getting waterboarded.

So the US should base its moral values on what some of the most extreme among our enemies do? That right there is sad. Just sad. 'Bad guys do it, so us good guys should do it too.'

Originally posted by etshrtslr
reply to post by etshrtslr

 

Obama OKs Assassination of U.S. Citizens
Link

Obama OK’s Targeted Assassination of Awlaki, a U.S. Citizen
Link

Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
Link

You seem to be failing to grasp the central issue here. I'll make it really, really simple for you, just so that you cannot later claim to have misunderstood &, if you fail to address the point, all will see that you had no argument to begin with, but rather just a blind loyalty to Bush Jnr. for whatever reason.
If I came up to you & said, "I think you're an arsehole.", then kicked you in the nuts, the fact that someone else might come up to you & say, "I think you're a prick." & shoot you in the head, doesn't mean that my behaviour wasn't wrong. Now, if it were established in a court of law that you are an arsehole & the sanctioned punishment for arseholery was a kick in the nuts, then you would quite properly get one from somebody. If, during the court case, it turned out instead that your're a prick & that was a capital offence, then, I'd be campaigning on your behalf against inhumane punishment.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe


was the in Iraq? Where some others were raped.

And when I checked the statistics, approximately 80% of those detainees were innocent.

Those tough guys who support torture, I just can't wait till the tables have turned on you, seriously, I just can't. Even if you haven't done any crime, just like those Iraqis.

Muslim apologists often tell a different story in the West, where general phrases are designed to strategically project the impression that they oppose torture in and of itself, thus attracting the support of a broader coalition. (CAIR's short-lived 2006 "Campaign against Torture" is one of the best examples of this).

The scope of their efforts, however, rarely extend beyond condemning Western countries in general (and the US in particular). Sympathies are also tellingly limited to the alleged treatment of Muslim terror detainees.

In fact, these organizations have very little to say about ending the less ambiguous and far more brutal human rights violations practiced by Muslim governments, even though the victims there are usually Muslim as well (such as the cleric Mesbah-Yazdi's unfortunate victims of rape).

The goal of these "anti-torture" campaigns is not an end to torture, but rather an attempt to capture the moral high ground on a controversial issue by exploiting Western attitudes - with no regard for the victims of true torture.
Source:
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

It's a flase flag!!!!!111!one!!

I just wanted to say that. Practically everything is a false flag on these boards.

Originally posted by thecinic
Question:
Is torture sanctioned by Islam?
Summary Answer:
Yes, but only when there is a reason for it.

Question: Did you just try to derail the entire discussion about US torture by bringing up a completely irrelevant issue in this particular discussion?
Answer: Yes

This is a discussion on US torture. What does Iran's torture policies have to do with this discussion? Because they torture people the US can too? Is that what you're getting at?

Common American exceptionalist tactic; if cornered and proven to be wrong, start blaming someone else for doing the same thing you do with the belief that people will stop questioning your piss-poor logic and rather blame the usual suspects (which are only suspect because American exceptionalism makes it so in the first place).

I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training.

Any competent special forces have training including torture-resistance so you can be better prepared for it out in the field. This has nothing to do with torturing "enemy combatants" because they are obviously not on the same side.

Whenever the muslim extreme terrorist change there stance on tortoure get back to me.. Until then I'm not going to care about a few of them getting waterboarded.

Again, WTF do these supposed Koran interpretations have in relation to dictating American policy? Are you saying American torture policies are based on what the Koran says? Gee, I guess those Muslim terrorists must be more powerful than originally thought

And quit sourcing your facts on some anti-Koran site. Everytime I see you doing that my hand instinctively smashes my face like it's a bloody magnet (while giving me only a slight effect of what is desired- a minor concussion that will hopefully delete the memory of reading your posts from my mind).

reply to post by thecinic


You clearly do not get it. Let me put it as simply as I can for myself. No, I do not care if other countries torture people. I am not from other countries. I do not live in other countries. I cannot and should not try to control what people do in other countries. I am an American and should be able to be proud to be one. As an American, I am against torture. This means that I am against myself and people that represent me comitting it.

I will not go from country to country condemning what other people in other places do just as I expect no one from Africa to come and burn me alive for listening to rock music. Other country's leaders do not claim to represent me and my American ideals so I am most certainly not as concerned with what they do.

reply to post by thecinic


Let me try something even more simple.

I cannot rightfully stand amongst my yard full of weeds and complain about the neighbor not cutting his grass enough. The only way I can even remotely justify condemning how someone else cares for their lawn is by making my own lawn utterly perfect.

reply to post by thecinic


We are waiting for you to tell us how in god's name can you justify torturing innocent people in Iraq using the same people you hate?

I have never met someone like you.

If I hate you because you torture people, I wouldn't torture, hence I hate you because you torture.

Such logic is insane, such logic needs to be treated.

Thank GOD such logic is not infectious, it only needs a small amount of cure, and the cure is words.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


"Waaaaaaah get out a tissue. I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training. If I really thought I could do this and save hundreds or thousands of lives, you bet I'd be hard pressed to refrain from doing it. "

Then you'd be a criminal, a torturer like every other non creative thinking despot in history..

Another "leader" who just couldn't think of anything "new" other than "lets torture"... this is why I don't need a leader, or to be led.. DC puppets are not chosen by any measure of leadership abilities.. it's a comical popularity contest, a federal reserve sponsored cheesy soap where your vote is 100% guaranteed not to matter thanks to political party loyalists staffing the electoral college.

BTW torture is brilliant, original, creative thinking.. bravo, bravo!! effective too! Spoken in the true spirit of American virtue. Really, hitler, stalin and their "torture as a solution" hall of in-fame-y brother gw boosh couldn't agree more: torture is cool, useful and represents the best American "leadership" has to offer.

Iraqis and Afghanis fighting against the Federal Reserve and torture are clearly "terrorists" and "insurgents with suspected links" to the Boogie-men Al Quef-duh, cousin of the now defunct "Red Menace", therefore they must be water-boarded to keep soccer moms safe from "terrorism" (just an an illegal alien DUI driver plows into a soccer moms mini van at 60mph.. mom & kids survive the accident but are killed by pursuing DHS agents gunfire, film at eleven).

reply to post by thecinic

Waterboarding sounds like a nice swim, compared to what the people they are waterboarding WILL do to you...

I wonder just how bad parenting & early education can get, b/c what we have here is somebody else who obviously didn't get the memo: 2 wrongs do not make a right. Its all a bit hazy back then, but I'm pretty sure I'd grasped this concept before I went to school. It wasn't easy, b/c my father was violent, but nonetheless...

reply to post by PayMeh


I'd settle for them taking occupency of jail cells of those who received and followed the orders that were then prosecuted and jailed.....
if they are serving time for following the orders, then the ones giving the orders should be serving double or triple the time!!!

reply to post by etshrtslr

And your point is?

The point of my 1st post here on pg2 & my subsequent discovery that the prediction I made within it proved correct, to which you are referring, was that I didn't need to read further than the OP to know that somebody would attempt to justify Bush Jnr.s actions by comparing them to Obama's. I knew this b/c there is no logical justification for doing wrong, but that wouldn't stop people from attempting to defend the indefensible anyway, who must then resort to illogical arguments. Since the subject concerns an American politician, the most likely illogical argument would be a polarised political one.
I'll confess that I just assumed that anyone who could undertand that, whatever anyone else does is irrelevant to the morality of what we ourselves do (ie when Bush Jnr ordered torture, that isn't excused simply b/c other leaders have/will do something else thats wrong), so the whole 'muslims do this so whatever we do is cool' argument & the references to Stalin etc. (which I also predicted) are all covered by the same argument.
Still, to be fair to me, I did state it quite baldly in 2 different forms:
2 wrongs dont make a right;
You dont fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water.
I mean, what? I have to do your thinking for you as well as my own? No, I just need to anticipate your thinking so that my own takes account of it... which I did. Its just not my fault if you cant understand the 2nd most simple moral argument there is after "do unto others as you'd be done by".

Originally posted by thecinic
Waterboarding don't seem all that bad, well when you compare it to when the people they are waterboarding will CUT YOUR GENITALS OFF and stick them in your MOUTH... Then BEHEAD YOU!!! Waterboarding seems pretty civil....

Really? Not that bad?

Then why did the US do this?

"I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," [McCain] told reporters at a campaign event.

motherjones.com...
And yes this statement is from the McCain you think it is.

Now I get what you're saying that "they" are doing things "worse" but that doesn't excuse what the US government has done. Torture of POW's did not get us any info and it put our troops in harms way.

The reality is that torture in the US is a crime and those who authorized torture are criminals must be punished in a court of law.