'Damn right' I personally ordered waterboarding: Bush

Originally posted by Alxandro
He gave the okay, big deal, obviously that was assumed years ago.

I wonder how many lives he saved in the process?

Why should he be charged with "war crimes" when libs have always called it an "illegal war"?

Can't have it both ways.

Why is it a war crime when the captured soldiers, errr, enemy combatants were dressed in civilian clothing?

If you feel Geneva should apply to these civilians then all I can say is be careful what you ask for.

How many lives did waterboarding cost us?
Could you please post a pic of the insurgents uniform?

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Please let me know why its a crime against humanity according to you in your OP to splash a little water in the face of suspected terrorist but some how its ok to assassinate American citizens by the authority of the President of the United Stated without the benefit of a trial or due process?

Both situations are violations under international as well as domestic law.

I’m not sure why you think the OP is being hypocritical. There is one significant difference in the aforementioned cases: as far as we know no American citizen has been assassinated under orders of Pres. Obama.

But there is no doubt in my mind that the President doesn’t have the authority, either under domestic or international law, to order the assassination of US citizens — or otherwise — especially in the terms and circumstances US officials have hinted they are ‘exploring.’

reply to post by etshrtslr


Obama OKs Assassination of U.S. Citizens
Link

Obama OK’s Targeted Assassination of Awlaki, a U.S. Citizen
Link

Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen
Link

we should waterboard bush to get the truth of 911.....he approved it..lol

reply to post by aptness


Read the links brother...and please don't try to make some morel equivalency argument.

Originally posted by Alxandro
Why should he be charged with "war crimes" when libs have always called it an "illegal war"?
Can't have it both ways.

This is one of the most intriguing — and legally ignorant — interpretations I’ve read. If Iraq was an illegal war, what it means is that every military action that occurred was unlawful, including actions that in different circumstances would be lawful under international humanitarian law.

I wonder how many lives he saved in the process?
Why is it a war crime when the captured soldiers, errr, enemy combatants were dressed in civilian clothing?

This is completely irrelevant as unlawful conduct of others don’t provide legal justification for our unlawful conduct. “The other guys are doing it” is not a tenable argument.

Originally posted by Clisen33

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by Clisen33
reply to post by antonia

 

Water boarding pales in comparison of what goes on in other countries. None of what happens in other countries matters because no one cares if it's not U.S. related.

Here's a very small example. Might be graphic for some people...
How would you all act if this was U.S. forces doing this to Iraqi/Afghan captured militants?

Russian Prison

You're trying to make Bush look good by showing what goes on in a Russian prison? You do realize that there isn't much crime in Russia compared to the US, right? There was barely any crime in the USSR for a damn good reason; called discipline. In other words, if you are a stupid idiot in Russia who feels like you can do whatever to anyone else, then you'll get far worse in the end (US is the exact opposite, it's called "competition" and "capitalism").

So then what you're saying is that water boarding should be allowed because it can be a form of discipline? Isn't that contradicting the whole water boarding is wrong idea?

Don't put words in my mouth.

Water boarding is a torture technique designed to force a confession out of a subject. It has nothing to do with discipline; it is torture, and torture on a strategic level is terror.

Russia is very different from the US. Common sense gets you far in Russia while ignorance kills you; in America, it is all about following laws to the extreme and bending laws if you need to, so if you have lots of money and training in law then you will go far. Torture is inherently different between these two systems.

Let me ask you, what is more effective punishment; being in solitary confinement with constant torture to scramble your mind (try spending 48 hours in a cement cell in complete darkness with American pop music blaring at you at unprecedented volume) or would you rather be beaten by your peers? I prefer the second option myself.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Read the links brother...and please don't try to make some morel equivalency argument.

I didn’t. I explicitly stated that both cases are violations of domestic and international law. Not sure why didn’t comprehend my position.

What I said was that, as far as we know, no one has been assassinated under those orders of Pres. Obama. Until there is an actus reus — in this case someone being assassinated under the OK of the President — Obama isn’t guilty of anything, other than, in my opinion, agreeing with an unconstitutional order.

If someone has been assassinated under those orders, then yes, he is guilty.

The people they waterboard would not even simply put you in a cell or be nice enough to just waterboard you.... When they are done cutting off your fingers, cutting off your limbs, cutting off your YOUR genitals, then THEN they CUT your head off....

Waterboarding sounds like a nice swim, compared to what the people they are waterboarding WILL do to you...

Originally posted by etshrtslr
reply to post by airspoon

 

Amazing how everyone gets worked up over a little water being splashed in a terrorist face as being cruel but its perfectly all right for the US President to order the assassination of United States citizen's without a trial or due process.

Why no outrage over this?

Aha! No referrence to Obama by name, but by inference instead. I knew there'd be one. We have a winner!

reply to post by thecinic

That argument is completely void of any merit. The legal, vel non, conduct of others doesn’t give you immunity to act as you please. In other words, it’s a crime irrespective to whom you are doing it to.

Originally posted by aptness

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Read the links brother...and please don't try to make some morel equivalency argument.

I didn’t. I explicitly stated that both cases are violations of domestic and international law. Not sure why didn’t comprehend my position.

What I said was that, as far as we know, no one has been assassinated under those orders of Pres. Obama. Until there is an actus reus — in this case someone being assassinated under the OK of the President — Obama isn’t guilty of anything, other than, in my opinion, agreeing with an unconstitutional order.

If someone has been assassinated under those orders, then yes, he is guilty.

That's the irony of this whole thread...Some how torture is just as bad as assassination?

And twice in two post you either cannot or will not acknowledge the difference between torture and assassination.

Please tell me which is worse?

i think that alternating cold water with boiling water would be considered torture.




or mixing it up so the chump has no idea which will be next.


good for gw to own up to it.

Originally posted by fooks
i think that alternating cold water with boiling water would be considered torture.




or mixing it up so the chump has no idea which will be next.


good for gw to own up to it.

I bet if you were blind-folded and tied to a board and your head submerged underwater you would not care if the water was cold or hot. You are hardwired to react as if you are drowning, which is the entire point of this technique. US defines it not as torture because it does not leave permanent physical damage... But try swimming after you have been water-boarded, or even take a bath or shower.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum

Originally posted by etshrtslr
reply to post by airspoon

 

Amazing how everyone gets worked up over a little water being splashed in a terrorist face as being cruel but its perfectly all right for the US President to order the assassination of United States citizen's without a trial or due process.

Why no outrage over this?

Aha! No referrence to Obama by name, but by inference instead. I knew there'd be one. We have a winner!

And your point is?

If you don't personally like some one who is doing something you are against then it is bad?

And if you do personally like someone who is doing the same thing or worse you are for it?

Please let me know what the difference is between state sponsored water boarding and state sponsored assassination?

Originally posted by etshrtslr
That's the irony of this whole thread...Some how torture is just as bad as assassination?
And twice in two post you either cannot or will not acknowledge the difference between torture and assassination.
Please tell me which is worse?

Both the aforementioned situations are, in my understanding, crimes and I have made that abundantly clear. Whether you consider one more serious than the other, or not, that is fine and you’re free to do so, but I gave you my answers based on my opinion of legal principles and, besides not being interested in debating the moral questions, I think it would be pointless and irrelevant to do so anyway, more so in such an emotionally-charged forum such as this.

One last thing, I would appreciate it if you would just state your opinion and point instead of trying to bait people. If nothing else, it would have saved me a lot of time.

Geez. I don't even have to read this lengthy post-a-thon to know ATSs' feelings...
Just answer one question for me. Don't brow beat me, or be condescending, just answer the question please.

Would you rather Water Board Ahkmed or have a US City destroyed and thousands killed? Water Boarding has killed ONE, person. The guy was in bad health to begin with. Probably shouldn't have water boarded him.

Water Boarding is NOT, terrible. I have been water boarded. It is very scary but it is not LIFE CHANGING in any means. It will make someone talk, for sure!

We could do what Iran and other Middle Hell Eastern States do. You know, mutilate genitals, mame faces, pour acid on people, or string someone by there toe nails?

Does getting a little wet and un-comfortable sound so bad now? Stop with the Liberal, "Holier than thou", attitude. Do a little research of your own before screaming at someone about being waterboarded!

reply to post by etshrtslr

The difference between state sponsored assasination and water boarding is simple.
The water Boarding gets the scum to talk.
The killing then takes place of the scum bag that the water boarder just revealed.

The water boarde', also just mentioned the above said was about to run into a school with explosives and blow it up.

Thats the difference. Sort of...

Originally posted by Becoming
If you did something that wasn't illegal at the time and it later became illegal you cannot be charged.
When he gave the go ahead it wasn't illegal. Now that it is illegal we cannot go back and charge him for doing it.

You accurately described a long-held legal principle, nulla poena sine lege, which says that someone cannot be charged for something that was wasn’t illegal at the time of the action or conduct, but your point fails in that torture has been illegal, and codified as such, for almost 100 years, so it’s erroneous to suggest that it wasn’t illegal at the time of Bush’s presidency.

reply to post by aptness


Do you understand that once someone is incarcerated during war time they have NO RIGHTS. They are a war criminal and are tried as a war criminal. They have ZERO RIGHTS. This was enacted by your boy FDR.

What book are you reading from?

Oh and they are lucky we give them a pot to pee in and 3 hots and a cot! If I were in charge it would be sodomy every hour on the hour with broom sticks...