'Damn right' I personally ordered waterboarding: Bush

The thing is, I just dont see this kind of mindset in outside of the US.



And this is how the US is portrayed to the rest of the world.
Sure, other countries torture.
But not at the same level and brutality as the US.

Then you have the other issue that maybe
Al Qaeda, And the various dictators around the world happen to be puppets of the US who probably learned torture techniques from places like the School of the Americas

Getting rid of someone is easy. Destroying popular aspirations takes more effort but you can always count on a volunteer or two to do the dirty work. For money; favors; influence; power--mostly power. When conventional methods-- elections, plebiscites, national referenda--fail, or when the results threaten the oligarchy, the US Army's School of the Americas, a shadowy but formidable war factory billeted at Fort Benning, Georgia, can help. There are not petty bureaucrats here, taking up space and stealing time until retirement. The SOA is a model institution. Its instructors and students are recruited from the cream of Latin America's military establishment. The curriculum includes: counterinsurgency, military intelligence, interrogation techniques, sniper fire, infantry and commando tactics, "irregular" and psychological warfare, jungle operations, among the most bellicose specialties. But Latin American soldiers at the SOA are not always trained to defend their borders from foreign invasion. They are taught--at US taxpayers' expense--to make war against their own people, to subvert the truth, silence poets, domesticate unruly visionaries, muzzle activist clergy, hinder trade unionism, hush the voices of dissidence and discontent, neutralize the poor, the hungry, the dispossessed, extinguish common dreams, irrigate fields of plenty with the tears of a captive society, and transform paladins and protesters into submissive vassals. Even if it kills them.

pangaea.org...


Notorious Grads

In less than one month, from November 19-21, 2010, thousands will gather at the gates of Fort Benning to stand up for justice and call for the SOA/WHINSEC to be shut down! Below are some helpful links for your trip planning, and a sneak peak into what SOA Watch has lined up for this year!

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You see, the only country in the world that could financially afford to conduct terrorism and wars on terrorism, is the US.

reply to post by Informativeme


You must not have read my post...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by antonia

 

The guy still says he didn't lie about WMD's.

You do remember there were far more intelligence agencies besides the CIA that said Saddam had WMD right?

Why does everyone forget that??

But didn't we go start bombing AFTER the UN determined that there were no WMD's? What intelligence org's were those that said there were WMD's? Were any of them non American or in the pocket of the U.S.? All I am saying is that we shot first and asked questions later..... We attacked Iraq because of an American agenda that was not based on protection of our boarders. We wanted control period. Follow the money... Who made out like bandits.... Hmmmmm maybe Haliburton and their subsidiaries????

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Um , excuse me, but here in Britain, it was even more sinister than that. Our secret service had almost explicitly said that there was not evidence of WMD , and it was left to ministers, suits, and other forms of walking faeces to plump the files with propegandism and maybes....
I would be very much suprised if that wasnt the case in virtualy all the other involved nations. Thats why the UN werent having any of it from UK/US representatives when we tried to get resolution on this matter. They saw the BS for what it was and thought "Im buggered if Im letting that xenophobic anti religious crap happen on my watch" .
Here I am constantly demanding that Tony Blair be tried for crimes against mankind, because certainly here in Britain, it is widely thought that we wouldnt have gone to Iraq except for his influence. I agree, and its from the horses mouth. Hes publicly said, that in his veiw, he would have gone to Iraq even if the US hadnt, and that he still thinks it was right to go there for the reasons as previously stated.
Hes a scumbag, and the only real reason we ever went to war in the sand. I wonder what the excuse in the US is, baring in mind the FACT that the 9/11 attacks were nothing to do with Iraq, and that the real issue was with disperate groups of terrorists (that the US trained in the first place), people against whom you can never WIN a land war.
There shouldnt have been a real military drive from any western nation into the Arabic and eastern world. There should have been an intelligence service sweep of the area, by the over trained and nigh on untraceable sociopaths in the intelligence services of the UK and US, but there should never have been a single flag or uniform amongst them.

Originally posted by CommonSensation
We should hang this asshole right now, how dare the former leader of our country act in such a way that would result in critical intelligence being gathered that could possibly save American lives!

I see a lot of people post here without actually reading anything. It did NOT GAIN ANY CRITICAL INTELLIGENCE. IT DID NOT SAVE ANY LIVES. In fact, no one in intelligence for a moment believed torture would gain any intelligence and since most of it was done after he said anything he was going to say, it was JUST REVENGE. That is no better than flying a plane into a tower in revenge for having your own towers bombed previously. That is what we call and endless cycle of revenge and I thought America had the moral ground to invade other countries because we were above petty violent revenge. Was I wrong on that?

Originally posted by Informativeme
Why will no one defend Bush? We were attacked and if water boarding had even a chance of squeezing any information out of enemies than I am all for it.

People are and it never did.

People wanted us dead, and he was trying to protect us by gaining knowledge.

More people want us dead because of what he did. It was never to gain knowledge. Talk to anyone who does interrogations and stop watching 24.

Even if it wasn't to protect us do you all think he would authorize something like this just for the heck of it?

No, he would authorize as part of a psyops strategy. In part he looks like a cool tough guy to you and he thinks it makes him seem crazy and scary to the enemy. He was wrong. This is not Nixon's time. This just fomented hate and that is it. How is creating more enemies a good thing?

He was trying to protect our country and all of us are QQ'ing about the way he tried to carry out protection for our country.

Because anyone with half a brain can see how little this did to protect anyone. Many of us also know people that have been damaged in this war by someone that hated them because they wore the flag of the invading torturers. Get the connection there? What did we actually get from waterboarding? BOGUS INTEL. He lied just to stop that torture. We wasted resources checking out his lies that he never would have even told had he not been pressured to say something, ANYTHING to make it stop. Get it? So thanks to waterboarding we got bad intel and more enemies. THANKS GEORGE!

Torture is an effective method of interrogation.

According to whom? When has this ever been proven true? Why do intelligence communities disagree with you? How come not one piece of actionable intelligence has been gained through torture in this entire war?
I cannot wait for your detailed answer.

Is it humane? no.. But sometimes we should be able to sacrifice that for our own protection.

edit on 5-11-2010 by Informativeme because: Used past-tense wanted present in QQ line

Why should anyone sacrifice their humanity for anything in the name of humanity?

reply to post by mrsdudara


I'm sorry I can give only one star for your post. I'm retired military - which I realize to a lot of people on here, that makes me the enemy - and I've seen first hand how bad some people can be. It doesn't justifiy a like response, but sometimes things get crazy in a crazy world. I don't have any answers, I just understand.

Originally posted by FoosM
The thing is, I just dont see this kind of mindset in outside of the US.

You see, the only country in the world that could financially afford to conduct terrorism and wars on terrorism, is the US.

Why do Liberals keep claiming that Americans are the most violent and terrorist people on earth while declaring the real agressors innocent?

Its just plain weird. Everywhere you go around here its Liberals talking about how "brutal" the U.S. is and how tame Hussein is or how innocent Hamas is.

Its not true no other countries could afford terrorism....thats another liberal myth we hear every day.

Oh, those POOR Terrorists were water boarded.....

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Cry me a river. I'm sick of holding back.

I do not like Dubya one bit, but I have to say. I see no problem with torture as a means to collect raw intelligence. We have to do what we have to do sometimes. You can bet that if he had spoke up about it before, and not lied. Nobody would have cared.

I knew this. I can't wait until he dies so I can dance on his grave. Well actually if I can get away with it I'm gonna piss on his grave. I got the chance to personally flip him off a few years back.

Originally posted by baked
I do not like Dubya one bit, but I have to say. I see no problem with torture as a means to collect raw intelligence. We have to do what we have to do sometimes. You can bet that if he had spoke up about it before, and not lied. Nobody would have cared.

What a naive erson you are.

America just needs to find out that you have thoughts that are anti american, like thinking america are murderers.

So if you where being tortured that would be fine as you just have thoughts like most of the population of the earth.

These torture is great people have no idea that fruit loops run police and gov agencies just deperate to torture anyone and in any way they can.

Originally posted by Submarines
Oh, those POOR Terrorists were water boarded.....

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Cry me a river. I'm sick of holding back.

I think the real concern here is the rules of war.

If it is acceptable for the US to waterboard, it is ok for other countries to do the same to US soldiers in captivity and they will.

Why do people NOT see that riding on this debate is the
PROTECTION OF US SOLDIERS IN CAPTIVITY???

Imagine you are a POW and your captors have not progressed toward these inhuman methods of dealing with prisoners but suddenly they get wind the US is doing this. You will be crying on that concrete slab they gave you to sleep on because your life just got a whole lot more worthless.

Not only that there is a tendency to push boundaries of legalities to the extreme. If water boarding is ok... hanging from the testicles or sticking bamboo shoots dipped in manure under the fingernails will not be so bad.

Hey if it makes them talk...go for it. WRONG!

These degrees of violence...if you are fighting animals you can revert to animal behavior yourself but don't try and take the high road later and pretend you are anything more than an animal yourself.

reply to post by thecinic

In their own country they WILL put your body neck deep in sand then STONE YOU slowly to death THATS TORTOURING YOUR OWN PEOPLE if your found to have committed adultry.

Yes, disgusting isn't it? My only muslim friend is lapsed. His mother & father moved their family (who all practice) to the UK mainly b/c my friend is gay. He could very well have been hanged for it, had he been caught in Iran. Still, he would have had the opportunity to defend himself in a court of law before any punishment could have been decreed. How about KSM et al? No. No trial. Just supposition & torture.

If simply waterboarding these peices of scum seems all that bad to you.. GO LIVE WITH THEM FOR A WHILE. See how long you last being an infidel UNDER SHIRIA LAW you schmucks!

Now we get to the nub of this person's position. Forget the misspelling, its all about dehumanisation. 'I dont like them, so I call them scum & its ok to do whatever I like to them'. We've seen the results of this mindset throughout history. It always ends badly.
Still, lets run with the internal logic of the position:
I dont like much of the US judicial system: its barbaric & perverse. Thus, if thecinic comes to Europe, I can completely ignore my own laws, capture them, lock them up in the basement "Silence of the Lambs" style & waterboard away to my hearts content: "It will put the lotion on. It will confess to being a terrorist."
When Agent Starling turns up, naturally I can say, "No, no. This is all between consenting adults! The gimp told us before that it was ok."

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Waaaaaaah get out a tissue. I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training. If I really thought I could do this and save hundreds or thousands of lives, you bet I'd be hard pressed to refrain from doing it.

They waterboarded KSM 183 times in just one month. In the end he confessed to plotting to blow up buildings that weren't even built when they captured him. Useless.

Waterboarding may not be the worst form of torture, but I hope that people haven't forgotten that several detainees were actually beaten to death.

AND???? That's why I PREVIOUSLY said "hindsight is always 20/20". That's irrelevant to what I said, I said "IF" I thought for a chance that by waterboarding someone I could save numerous lives I'd be hard pressed not to do it.

"IF" means something. In hindsight was it a good idea? No, never argued it was. But at the time the decision was made, it probably seemed necessary to potentially save lives. And that's something I'm always in favor of.

Originally posted by Curiousisall

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Waaaaaaah get out a tissue. I'm a veteran, we do this to our own troops in special forces training. If I really thought I could do this and save hundreds or thousands of lives, you bet I'd be hard pressed to refrain from doing it.

But it will not save any lives. It will not do any good for anyone. It is nice to think torturing a bad guy might save lives but it is also nice to think that cats fart gold bars.

Nice conjecture there, but just because KSM didn't know of future attacks doesn't mean he didn't have the potential to know of future attacks.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Nice conjecture there, but just because KSM didn't know of future attacks doesn't mean he didn't have the potential to know of future attacks.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Way to miss the point. He had already given up the only information he was going to and they knew that torture was not going to get actionable intelligence. No conjecture. It was well known that torture does not produce any good intel and never has but maybe they just forgot for a moment? Then again, that sounds a lot like conjecture on your part. I am going to stick with the reality of what is and was.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by NeverApologize

 

Water Boarding is NOT, terrible. I have been water boarded. It is very scary but it is not LIFE CHANGING

Oh really? You have been captured by your enemy, held indefinitely, denied access to the simple companionship of & chain of command within the cohort of your comrades also captured, treated as an object to be fed watered & transported against your own volition, whilst being deprived of privacy, like an animal, for years, whilst also subject to sanctioned beating for any intransigence on your part & also the casual cruelty of humans who simply pass it on "excrement rolls downhill" style & waterboarded by people who really dont care about your well being, just so long as they're pretty certain they wont get much if any trouble if you die, have you?
Or did you do a short course where you knew that, whilst what was happening to you was very unpleasant, the people responsible for your welfare would get serious grief if you died & also that you could "tap out" at any time, failing the course, or simply resign from your job? Dont tell me you cant do that, I've got mates who are current or ex military. You can always resign your rank &, even if you cant legally get out of the military immediately, you can buy out.
Didn't change your life, eh? Probably b/c it wasn't meant to.

We waterboard our OWN soldiers in Special Forces training. (Navy SEALS, Marine Recon..)

Originally posted by neonmeatdream

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by antonia

 

The guy still says he didn't lie about WMD's.

You do remember there were far more intelligence agencies besides the CIA that said Saddam had WMD right?

Why does everyone forget that??

But didn't we go start bombing AFTER the UN determined that there were no WMD's? What intelligence org's were those that said there were WMD's? Were any of them non American or in the pocket of the U.S.? All I am saying is that we shot first and asked questions later..... We attacked Iraq because of an American agenda that was not based on protection of our boarders. We wanted control period. Follow the money... Who made out like bandits.... Hmmmmm maybe Haliburton and their subsidiaries????

It appears you're under the false assumption that the Gulf War in 1991 was ended upon a peace treaty. It was not, a "cease-fire' was signed. Under terms of a "cease-fire" if any party to the agreement violates the terms of the cease-fire the other party involved can resume military operations. Iraq was found by the UNSC to be in "material breach" of the cease-fire agreement.

reply to post by rusethorcain


I understand your point. Unfortunatley the terrorists don't follow the rules.

If they did, I would have a different view. But the kidnapping, and beheadings of civilians is just too much for me.

And not to forget these suicide bombers that just take out everyone, no matter of age, race, or sex. The terrorists tossed out the rule book.