Obama:Change to be afraid of.....

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
Jumping to conclusions seems to be quite common in the fantasyland of the right-wing blogosphere. When asked to substantiate their conclusions, we may encounter bluster, red herrings, and ad hominem attacks more often than rational, focused answers. Military Intelligence students are quickly disabused of such behavior, and learn the value of supporting every conclusion they proffer.

That is your counter argument

Where is your work supporting your counter claims; your "supporting every conclusion" YOU proffer? To just blow off every conservative in one fell swoop and dismiss them as being full of bluster is hardly presenting evidence to refute anything.

You sort of stuck yourself in the eye here with your own "ad hominem" attack. You seen the Left Wing Blogosphere of late? At least here they try and support their conclusions instead of inventing stories out of thin air just to hurt people, or sending there kids to commit crimes like hacking accounts on social networking sites.

reply to post by Kaleokualoha


Could you post the evidence for us?

sometimes it hard to track down the needle in the haystack... since you know where it is you can point us to it...

thanks

reply to post by Blaine91555

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
Jumping to conclusions seems to be quite common in the fantasyland of the right-wing blogosphere. When asked to substantiate their conclusions, we may encounter bluster, red herrings, and ad hominem attacks more often than rational, focused answers. Military Intelligence students are quickly disabused of such behavior, and learn the value of supporting every conclusion they proffer.

That is your counter argument

Where is your work supporting your counter claims; your "supporting every conclusion" YOU proffer? To just blow off every conservative in one fell swoop and dismiss them as being full of bluster is hardly presenting evidence to refute anything.

You sort of stuck yourself in the eye here with your own "ad hominem" attack. You seen the Left Wing Blogosphere of late? At least here they try and support their conclusions instead of inventing stories out of thin air just to hurt people, or sending there kids to commit crimes like hacking accounts on social networking sites.

Yup i agree with ya

Where is said evidence....

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
Why do you post that Frank Marshall Davis was Obama’s “mentor”? Because conservative firebrand Cliff Kincaid said so? "Dreams From My Father" belies that urban myth. It's a pity Americans are so easily hoodwinked by this right-wing disinformation, just like we were duped regarding the Iraqi threat. But even today, some Americans would rather believe fully discredited lies than admit they were duped. They don't have the courage to admit their mistakes. For everyone else: "Follow the evidence."
Although Obama's book indicates "Frank" was a family friend who offered him advice on racial issues, Obama wrote that Davis "fell short" and his views were "incurable." Obama's book proves that Obama did not consider Davis to be a "wise and trusted counselor," which is the standard definition of "mentor." By what creative definition can Davis be considered his "mentor"?

The official Obama rebuttal to author Jerome Corsi says....
LIE: “But the key role Frank Marshall Davis plays in the autobiography is not to provide Obama with
words from his poems as a voice for Obama’s black rage. Instead Davis is the mentor Obama
seeks for wisdom and advice, for instance when he has a crisis with his grandmother that was so
traumatic Obama still mentions it today.” [p 87]

REALITY: OBAMA MEMOIR CHARACTERIZED FRANK DAVIS MARSHALL AS A FIGURE
FROM HIS YOUTH WHO “FELL SHORT” AND WHOSE VIEW OF RACE WAS
“INCURABLE”
Obama Wrote Of Frank As Someone Who “Fell Short” Of The “Lofty Standards” Of “Martin And
Malcolm, Dubois And Mandela.” “Yes, I’d seen weakness in other men—Gramps and his disappointments,
Lolo and his compromise. But these men had become object lessons for me, men I might love but never
emulate, white men and brown men whose fates didn’t speak to my own. It was into my father’s image, the
black man, son of Africa, that I’d packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and
Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela. And if later I saw that the black men I knew— Frank or Ray or Will or Rafiq—
fell short of such lofty standards; if I had learned to respect these men for the struggles they went through,
recognizing them as my own—my father’s voice had nevertheless remained untainted, inspiring, rebuking,
granting or withholding approval. You do not work hard enough, Barry. You must help in your people’s
struggle. Wake up, black man!” [Dreams From My Father, Pg. 96]
Obama Wrote That “The Relationship Between Black And White, The Meaning Of Escape, Would
Never Be Quite The Same For Me As It Had Been For Frank, Or For The Old Man, Or Even For Roy.”
10
“The relationship between black and white, the meaning of escape, would never be quite the same for me as it
had been for Frank, or for the Old Man, or even for Roy.” [Dreams From My Father, Pg. 277]
Obama Recounted Frank’s Diatribe About What Would Happen To Him In College And Then
Described Frank As “Incurable” And Living In The “Sixties Time Warp That Hawaii Had Created.”
““What had Frank called college? An advanced degree in compromise. I thought back to the last time I had seen
the old poet, a few days before I left Hawaii. We had made small talk for a while; he complained about his feet,
the corns and bone spurs that he insisted were a direct result of trying to force African feet into European shoes.
Finally he had asked me what it was that I expected to get out of college. I told him I didn’t know. He shook his
big, hoary head…’Leaving your race at the door,” he said. “Leaving your people behind.” He studied me over
the top of his reading glasses. “Understand something, boy. You’re not going to college to get educated. You’re
going there to get trained. They’ll train you to want what you don’t need. They’ll train you to manipulate words
so they don’t mean anything anymore. They’ll train you to forget what it is that you already know. They’ll train
you so good, you’ll start believing what they tell you about equal opportunity and the American way and all that
#. They’ll give you a corner office and invite you to fancy dinners, and tell you you’re a credit to your race.
Until you want to actually start running things, and then they’ll yank on your chain and let you know that you
may be a well-trained, well-paid 'n-word', but you’re a 'n-word' just the same…It made me smile, thinking back on
Frank and his old Black Power, dashiki self. In some ways he was as incurable as my mother, as certain in

According to this from The Obama People and actual passages from the book Obama loved Frank Marshall Davis. Does that make him a mentor or just a really good friend? Can you grow to love someone you've only seen twice in How many years? I have to wonder why a young man would seek out advice from someone they disagree with so much on such things as racism and college, then discuss that same person, in some length, in his autobiography.

ETA- I realize this is hard to read but it is a direct quote from the booklette Unfit For Publication. You can read the full text at the link.

Thanks for asking!

A comprehensive analysis of the political disinformation campaign against the Davis-Obama relationship is posted as "specific misrepresentation" at my.barackobama.com...

A deeper and narrower analysis of just one branch of the disinformation campaign examines the 1949 Honolulu NAACP incident, as reported by rookie NAACP board member (and "haole") Edward Berman: my.barackobama.com...

The Orwellian "Ministry Of Truth" surrogate, which spearheaded the disinformation campaign, is so-called "Accuracy In Media (AIM)." In this incident, AIM misrepresented Berman's testimony in four conflicting ways in four different AIM "reports." AIM apparently was unconcerned with keeping its cover story straight when trumping-up evidence against Frank Marshall Davis.

"Falsehoods not only disagree with truths, but usually quarrel among themselves."
- Daniel Webster, American, Statesman Quotes

reply to post by Kaleokualoha


What part says that he didn't write the poem about davis....

that's a long read.....that site seems to be very pro-obama do you have any neutral sites to quote from to back the claim up? i can claim a lot of stuff on a very official website...doesn't make it any truer

Also it seems the Original poster is simply quoting from Obama's book as a source... ya might look into that..

i understand about disinfo...it falls on BOTH sides...wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
Thanks for asking!

A comprehensive analysis of the political disinformation campaign against the Davis-Obama relationship is posted as "specific misrepresentation" at my.barackobama.com...

A deeper and narrower analysis of just one branch of the disinformation campaign examines the 1949 Honolulu NAACP incident, as reported by rookie NAACP board member (and "haole") Edward Berman: my.barackobama.com...

Did you see I provided a link to Frank Marshall Davis' lengthy FBI file?

Originally posted by ljtg123

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
Thanks for asking!

A comprehensive analysis of the political disinformation campaign against the Davis-Obama relationship is posted as "specific misrepresentation" at my.barackobama.com...

A deeper and narrower analysis of just one branch of the disinformation campaign examines the 1949 Honolulu NAACP incident, as reported by rookie NAACP board member (and "haole") Edward Berman: my.barackobama.com...

Did you see I provided a link to Frank Marshall Davis' lengthy FBI file?

That means nothing. Dr. King also had a lengthy FBI file.

Originally posted by tspark
reply to post by Kaleokualoha

 

What part says that he didn't write the poem about davis....

that's a long read.....that site seems to be very pro-obama do you have any neutral sites to quote from to back the claim up? i can claim a lot of stuff on a very official website...doesn't make it any truer

Also it seems the Original poster is simply quoting from Obama's book as a source... ya might look into that..

i understand about disinfo...it falls on BOTH sides...wouldn't you agree?

Nothing in my references "says that he didn't write the poem about davis." I recommend that we follow the evidence. The burden of proof is always upon those making controversial claims.

The referenced website only contains posts that I wrote. I can just as easily post them here. Their value is not in their location, but in their irrefutable debunking of disinformation against the Davis Obama relationship.

Ironically, proof of AIM disinformation is sometimes provided by Cliff Kincaid himself. For example, one of the most flagrant examples is AIM's misrepresentation of the 1949 Honolulu NAACP incident involving Davis. Kincaid posted the Congressional testimony of Board member Edward Berman as Exhibit 4A of www.usasurvival.org...

As you can clearly read, Berman stated that Frank Marshall Davis appeared at ONE meeting to “propagandize the membership about our ‘racial problems’,” and was supported by the “Stalinist” group. Based on Berman’s one letter to the NAACP describing the situation, AIM fabricated four different versions of Davis’s encounter with the Honolulu NAACP:

Fabricated Version #1 (www.aim.org...): In this falsehood, Berman supposedly criticized Davis for allegedly sneaking into NAACP meetings, while allegedly having the “avowed intent” of converting the same meetings. Berman said nothing of the kind.

Fabricated Version #2 (www.aim.org...): In this falsehood, Davis allegedly tries to take over meetings instead of sneaking into them. Berman said nothing of the kind.

Fabricated Version #3 (www.aim.org... ): In this falsehood, Roy Wilkins supposedly criticized Davis directly when he “rightly noted of Davis and his comrades: they would now destroy the local branch of the NAACP." In reality, Wilkins made no criticism of Davis.

Fabricated Version #4 (www.aim.org...): In this falsehood, Davis tried to take over the NAACP itself! Berman made no such statement.

Obviously not all accounts can truly represent Berman's testimony. Even without reviewing the testimony, it should be readily apparent to an objective observer that some must be misrepresentations. In fact, ALL are misrepresentations. Read the testimony, then see how widely AIM's falsehoods, based on this testimony, have permeated the blogosphere. Misrepresenting Berman's testimony was only one piece in AIM's body of lies regarding the Davis-Obama relationship.

A disinformation campaign is like a house of cards, or an illusion fabricated over a framework of falsehoods. Although each piece is relatively small, the disinformation reveals its true colors when enough support is withdrawn, . So it was with the Bush administration's Iraqi threat. So it is with disinformation regarding the Davis-Obama relationship.

See! No need to visit the comprehensive analysis of this incident at my.barackobama.com... or the broader analysis of the disinformation campaign at my.barackobama.com... .

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
See! No need to visit the comprehensive analysis of this incident at my.barackobama.com... or the broader analysis of the disinformation campaign at my.barackobama.com... .

I was unable to view the first link. It went to a page that said invalid blog.
The second went to FMDs son's page.
This is a quote from the page
“Frank and King are aligned along a historical continuum, in a determined effort to destroy the yoke of racism. People often make the mistake of seeing Dr. King's civil rights work as the only effort made to effect social change in this country. But Frank represents only one of many such efforts, each conducted in different venues. A. Phillip Randolph's famous threatened March on Washington in 1941 (which produced the FEPC), the "Double V" campaign, the work of the NAACP, and much more paved the way for Dr. King. Add to these the various labor initiatives and you have further evidence of predecessors to Dr. King.”

Frank Marshall Davis is by his own admission a repeat pedophile. The more I have researched Frank and other Obama "acquaintances" the more I have become convinced that their should be prosecutions. These people are low life scum who got to the position they are in off the backs of the American worker. They are parasites on this country. They have lied and smeared and used people to gain power. I frankly find it amazing that people will still defend this guy.

Oh, and I wanted to edit to add that FMD was an obvious racist just from the remarks he was quoted in Obama's book. The argument that he somehow "paved the way" for Dr King is ridiculous.

I am really not sure what is supposed to be proven by these threads about supposition, guesses, and people who knew people and other people who said they knew people but I do have a question.

Where was this inquisitive attitude before the election? What were all the birthers and the "Obama is a known socialist Muslim" folks before he was elected? Where you all distracted by Palin? Were you too busy to care?
Just curious.

Obama is not a socialist. He is a lapdog. He is mouthpiece. He and his employers are far from socialists. They and he are fascists/corporatist/oligarchists.

Oh and criminal. He is a criminal as well.

Originally posted by ljtg123

Originally posted by Kaleokualoha
See! No need to visit the comprehensive analysis of this incident at my.barackobama.com... or the broader analysis of the disinformation campaign at my.barackobama.com... .

I was unable to view the first link. It went to a page that said invalid blog.
The second went to FMDs son's page.
This is a quote from the page
“Frank and King are aligned along a historical continuum, in a determined effort to destroy the yoke of racism. People often make the mistake of seeing Dr. King's civil rights work as the only effort made to effect social change in this country. But Frank represents only one of many such efforts, each conducted in different venues. A. Phillip Randolph's famous threatened March on Washington in 1941 (which produced the FEPC), the "Double V" campaign, the work of the NAACP, and much more paved the way for Dr. King. Add to these the various labor initiatives and you have further evidence of predecessors to Dr. King.”

Frank Marshall Davis is by his own admission a repeat pedophile. The more I have researched Frank and other Obama "acquaintances" the more I have become convinced that their should be prosecutions. These people are low life scum who got to the position they are in off the backs of the American worker. They are parasites on this country. They have lied and smeared and used people to gain power. I frankly find it amazing that people will still defend this guy.

Oh, and I wanted to edit to add that FMD was an obvious racist just from the remarks he was quoted in Obama's book. The argument that he somehow "paved the way" for Dr King is ridiculous.

edit on 29-9-2010 by ljtg123 because: (no reason given)

- Here is the corrected first link: www.usasurvival.org...

- The paragraph you quoted was was written by Davis's biographer, University of Kansas professor Edgar Tidwell, whom AIM's Cliff Kincaid cited as an EXPERT in the life and writings of Davis.

Why are you spreading the nasty rumour that Frank Marshall Davis was a "pedophile"? Are you trying to railroad Davis with just the trumped-up evidence that his porn novel included sex with an underage teenager, or is there any empirical evidence, such as court records or confirmatory statements from Davis himself? A novel is fiction, and is fraudulent evidence for such accusations! Do you also consider the author of "Lolita" to be a pedophile, or just Davis? Perhaps it's time for MythBusters to take a closer look at this unsubstantiated claim.

Contrary to fairy tales drifting around the blogosphere, Davis never "admitted" that any of the events from his novel actually happened in real life. Those who believe such rubbish have been victimized by a cruel hoax. Critics are trying to railroad Davis with trumped-up evidence, just as some tried to railroad Dr. Hatfill in the anthrax letters case, and just as ex-D.A. Mike Nifong tried to railroad the Duke lacrosse team by stacking the evidence. Integrity requires an honest evaluation of existing evidence.

Davis wrote a semi-autobiographical NOVEL. FYI: a novel is a work of fiction! In this regard, Davis's book is like Samuel Clemens "Roughing It," in that they were both written under pseudonyms that were also fictional characters in their stories. According to Wikipedia:

"Samuel Clemens wrote autobiographical novels under the pseudonym "Mark Twain," including "Roughing It," which "follows the travels of young Mark Twain through the Wild West during the years 1861–1867. After a brief stint as a Confederate cavalry militiaman, he joined his brother Orion Clemens, who had been appointed Secretary of the Nevada Territory, on a stagecoach journey west. Twain consulted his brother's diary to refresh his memory and borrowed heavily from his active imagination for many stories in the novel."

In both cases authors used pseudonyms to publish autobiographical novels that were "fictionalized but still based upon actual occurrences." In both cases these novels presented fictionalized adventures of their pseudonymous characters.

Does anyone claim that the adventures of "Mark Twain" literally occurred in the life of Samuel Clemens, because "Mark Twain" said they happened? If not, then why should anyone claim that the adventures of Bob Greene literally occurred in the life of Frank Marshall Davis, because "Bob Greene" said they happened? Fair weather principles indicate bias.

Calling Davis a pedophile based on his novel makes no more sense than calling David Letterman a pedophile based on his joke. Both accusations were widespread in the right-wing blogosphere, and reflect the pinnacle of intellectual dishonesty. Both misrepresent the core values of artists by spreading falsehoods that gullible readers accept as truth, and who then spread further in good faith.

Such misrepresentation exploits mainstream unawareness of literary styles such as the semi-autobiographical novel (see en.wikipedia.org... or www.artandpopularculture.com...), memoir-novel (see www.answers.com... or www.encyclopedia.com...) and the first-person narrative (see en.wikipedia.org... or www.artandpopularculture.com...), by claiming that the artist actually experienced fictional events when it serves their disinformation purposes. Deliberate misrepresentation is the foundation of disinformation campaigns, such as the campaign against Barack Obama and Davis.

The issue is rather simple: Either you literally attribute fictional characters' stories to their authors' real lives, or you accept that fictional characters' stories are fiction. By definition, even semi-autobiographical novels are fictionalized accounts of their authors' own lives. Research should reveal that ALL fictional narrators of such novels claim the events are true, although their actual authors make no such claims!

BTW: Your claim that Davis was a racist is absurd. He did not believe in either racial superiority (prejudice) or treating people differently based on race (racial discrimination). He believed in complete INTEGRATION of society! He married a white woman whith whom he had five children. By what self-serving definition do you consider Davis to be "racist"?

Contrary to the fraudulent memes circulated throughout the blogosphere regarding Davis, University of Kansas Professor Edgar Tidwell, cited by AIM's Cliff Kincaid as an expert on the life and writings of Davis, explains that THESE were the “radical” goals of Frank Marshall Davis:

(1) integration of armed forces

(2) integration of AFL and CIO

(3) fair wages and other benefits for workers

(4) general dismantling of all laws supporting racial segregation

(5) end to laws supporting anti-Semitism

(6) end to atomic warfare

(7) rights for soldiers in combat zones to vote in national elections

(8) support for Fair Employment Practices Act

(9) support for a broad United Nations (not just US and Great Britain
forming a world power union)

(10) end to restrictive covenants in real estate

You will likely find that these have mostly been transformed from "radical" goals of the 1940s into mainstream 21st century standards. Frank Marshall Davis was not out of line. He was just ahead of his time.


"I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929 - 1968)

reply to post by ljtg123


Again, more demonization of socialism with no facts to back up this claim. Real socialists know that Obama is not one of them.

There's a reason why this birther madness isn't part of the mainstream: It's madness.

I'll take socialism over anarchy or fascism any day.

reply to post by Curiousisall


You can't be real, right. everyone that was against Obama before he was elected was just as vocal about the issues then as they are now

eyes that see not, ears that hear not

Originally posted by tspark
reply to post by Curiousisall

 

You can't be real, right. everyone that was against Obama before he was elected was just as vocal about the issues then as they are now

eyes that see not, ears that hear not

Can you show me any of the birther threads, pre 2008 election? Can you show me where people are asking for his college transcripts and discussing who his mom talked to in high school?

reply to post by Curiousisall



actually i wasn't around here during that time.... but you should check around outside a bit..

Actually i saw an article the other day that it was hillary's camp that first started the birther movement..

here is one article...can't find the one i saw the other day..

newsblaze.com...

Originally posted by tspark
reply to post by Curiousisall

 

actually i wasn't around here during that time.... but you should check around outside a bit..

You need to have been here a certain amount of time in order to use the search function? When did they implement that? I have checked around, why don't you? The little box is in the upper right hand corner. Give it a whirl and see if you can find all these things pre-2008 election.

Actually i saw an article the other day that it was hillary's camp that first started the birther movement..

here is one article...can't find the one i saw the other day..

newsblaze.com...

Um...ok. Good for you?

reply to post by Curiousisall


Well to be honest... I don't really care what they were talking about here in "these 4 walls" outside the "scary walls" they were talking about it.... maybe....maybe if i had been here it may have had few more threads to add to whatever # of threads there is...

not searching this Msg board, you can if you want...just to prove me wrong.... but again in the "Outside World" it was being discussed....

and i posted it about hillary just to show you it was started before Obama was elected....you must have missed the subtle nuance of it... i'll try and be more blunt about why i post info...

Originally posted by tspark
reply to post by Curiousisall

 

Well to be honest... I don't really care what they were talking about here in "these 4 walls" outside the "scary walls" they were talking about it.... maybe....maybe if i had been here it may have had few more threads to add to whatever # of threads there is...

not searching this Msg board, you can if you want...just to prove me wrong.... but again in the "Outside World" it was being discussed....

Where? When? By whom?

and i posted it about hillary just to show you it was started before Obama was elected....you must have missed the subtle nuance of it... i'll try and be more blunt about why i post info...

No, I think what you did was kind of back up what I was saying. You have somone trying to remind us that they think that Hillary started the birther movement. I did not ask where was Hillary on this? As your story points out, NO ONE SEEMED TO CARE.

So again, my question is where was all the concern from you folks on these issues?