Muslims do NOT care if we burn the Koran! They care about THIS!

Why Won’t the FBI Stand Up to Islamic Extremism?

Cartoonist Molly Norris had been forced into hiding by a fatwa threatening her life for establishing a “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day” issued by the Yemen-based cleric Anwar al-Awlaki.

The FBI has cautioned Molly Norris to take the threat seriously.

Al-Awlaki – who has been linked to the Fort Hood massacre, the so-called “Christmas bomber,” and the attempted bombing of Times Square was born in Las Cruces, New-Mexico, and is a citizen of the United States.

"The U.S. government is suggesting that Ms. Norris change her name, strip away her past, possibly even change her appearance, because she has been targeted by Muslim extremists who are not amused by her work or her ideas. Rather than protect her, rather than defend her, rather than stand up for her Constitutional and democratic rights, declaring their intention to route al-Awlaki out and bring him (and others who are threatening her life) to justice, the American government, as it were, is itself in essence allying with him by taking away her freedom and her life...

...And yet, unlike the British, who for years protected and defended Salman Rushdie from the edicts of Ayatollah Khomeini and others, the USA has thrown up its hands, leaving her to her own devices, the victim of the same sick Islamic ideology that permits women to be stoned to death for the crime of having loved."

blogs.forbes.com...

go to mecca during ramadan and start having a pork bbq using korans as charcoal. see if that statement is true.

reply to post by Naverine

My heart goes out to your brother bro,believe me , it really does.

S&F I wish more people thought like this .Great post

I think these videos show something else:

US soldiers died from friendly fire were probably reported as war casualties inflicted by terrorists.

Originally posted by randomname
go to mecca during ramadan and start having a pork bbq using korans as charcoal. see if that statement is true.

How about I come to your house and go to the toilet, and crap in a plastic then bring it to you while you are eating.

You will either punch me in the face, or kick me out of your house

People react to different situations differently, if you are not gonna respect anyone because of freedom of expression and freedom of speech, then no one is gonna respect you.

What do Muslims care about?

In a survey of British Muslims, the following attitudes were expressed

59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law. 37% of 16-24 year olds prefer sharia compared to 17% of 55+ year olds.

36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year olds.

7% “admire organisations like Al-Qaeda that are prepared to fight the West’. 13% of 16-24 year olds agreed with this statement compared to 3% of 55+ year olds.

74% of 16-24 year olds would prefer Muslim women to choose to wear the veil, compared to only 28% of 55+ year olds.

28% of Muslims believe that authorities in Britain go over the top in trying not to offend Muslims.

41% named foreign policy as an important issue to Muslims but they are not necessarily more informed or engaged than the wider population. Only 18% of Muslims could name the president of the Palestinian National Authority and only 14% could name the Prime Minister of Israel.

58% believe that “many of the problems in the world today are a result of arrogant western attitudes” – 30% of the general population agrees.

www.policyexchange.org.uk...

reply to post by ollncasino

Excellent post ollncasino and one that Im am sure will be linked to when uninformed people spout about the supposed islamification of Britain.

Im suprised you left out the bit about Christmas tho, oh and this bit:

The majority of Muslims feel they have as much, if not
more, in common with nonMuslims in Britain as with
Muslims abroad

Source: www.policyexchange.org.uk...

Well done.

reply to post by muzzleflash


yea, these might be war atrocities and crimes against humanity. but muslims do care if we burn the koran. they also care if you draw muhammed in a cartoon. just because there are hateful ignorant people in this society with irrational beliefs about muslims doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of fundamentalist, ignorant muslims who care about this trivial stuff.

reply to post by joewalker


yea, this might be true of the majority of muslims. I have no doubt the majority of muslims are amazing people. Some of my very closest friends here at school (well, only 2, but i have few friends, haha) are muslims. but in modern democracies well organized interests and distinctive minorities often hold much more sway over policy then dispersed and moderate majorities. The islamization of europe is not as bad as some make it out to be, but some aspects are alarming and real. It doesn't take 90% of muslims being 'dirty foreigners' to make islamization a reality, it only takes a well organized 10% with a defined identity, megaphones, lobbyists and hate-speech laws to quash opposition.

Excellent post ollncasino and one that Im am sure will be linked to when uninformed people spout about the supposed islamification of Britain.

We must keep things in perspective.

The big problem is the radicalization of young British Muslims.

I was surprised that 1 in 5 British Muslims over the age of 55 believed in the death penalty for leaving Islam while over 1 in 3 young Muslims between 16-24 year olds believe that someone leaving Islam should be put to death.

Alarming.

I was also alarmed that almost 3 out of 4 British Muslims aged 16-24 year olds feel that Muslim women should wear the veil. Only just over 1 in 4 Muslims over 55 agree.

So the majority of British Muslims appear to be in accord with Western values with a significant minority holding views contrary to Western values.

The worrying thing however is that 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants appear to be more extreme than their parents, not less.

Luckily they are still in the minority in terms of approving the killing of Muslims who leave Islam but are unfortunately in the majortiy (aged 16 to 24) in terms of Muslim women being made to wear the veil.

www.policyexchange.org.uk...

The report itself lays the blame at the door of 'multi-culturalism' and advocates an end to "self-loathing and confusion in the West"

"One way to tackle this is to bring to an end the institutional attacks on national identity – the counterproductive
cancellation of Christmas festivities, the neurotic bans on displays of national symbols, and the sometimes crude anti- Western bias of history lessons – which can create feelings of defensiveness and resentment."

The report also advocates Muslims not being treated as a separate group but as British citizens and for a shared British identity to be fostered rather than the current 'multi-cultural' separate Muslim one, pointing out that 'victim' politics can increase the sense of alienation by young Muslims.

The islamization of europe is not as bad as some make it out to be, but some aspects are alarming and real. It doesn't take 90% of muslims being 'dirty foreigners' to make islamization a reality, it only takes a well organized 10% with a defined identity, megaphones, lobbyists and hate-speech laws to quash opposition.

That is the great danger. Muslims around the world appear to be, on the whole, rather poor at preventing an extremist minority taking over their communities and countries.

Even secular Turkey has needed the army to stage coups 4 times since WWII to prevent Muslim extremists seizing power.

reply to post by snusfanatic

Cool, but I would suggest that there is quite a lot of 'opposition' to extremism.
I have all kinds of problems with the 'hate crime' legislation that was enacted in Britain, but it doesnt stop the debate.
We are after all, having a conversation on a site which allows open discussion, within guidelines obviously.

it only takes a well organized 10% with a defined identity, megaphones, lobbyists and hate-speech laws to quash opposition.

And yet the stop the war movement failed to stop the invasion of Iraq and the BNP fared quite badly in the last general election.

reply to post by ollncasino

We must keep things in perspective.

100% agree.

The big problem is the radicalization of young British Muslims.

I'd agree its a problem, what was the reports conclusion?

I was surprised that 1 in 5 British Muslims over the age of 55 believed in the death penalty for leaving Islam while over 1 in 3 young Muslims between 16-24 year olds believe that someone leaving Islam should be put to death.

One in three sounds far worse than 36%. What about the other 64%, otherwise known as the majority, who dont hold those views?

I was also alarmed that almost 3 out of 4 British Muslims aged 16-24 year olds feel that Muslim women should wear the veil. Only just over 1 in 4 Muslims over 55 agree.

I havent read the full report, just the exec summary. Did the question differentiate between types of veils? Personally, I only have a problem with the niqab and burka.

The worrying thing however is that 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants appear to be more extreme than their parents, not less.

Ah and finally the penny drops, I was getting worried at your worrying for a second. By second and third generation, you are actually refering to British citizens who happen to muslims, yes?

The report also advocates Muslims not being treated as a separate group but as British citizens and for a shared British identity to be fostered rather than the current 'multi-cultural' separate Muslim one, pointing out that 'victim' politics can increase the sense of alienation by young Muslims.

An excellent conclusion.

reply to post by joewalker


Of course the majority of muslims represent a massive 'opposition' to extremism. But how is that opposition organization? and how does it appeal to the laws and structures of the british political system? The majority of people, by virtue of being a majority represent an opposition to 'extremism' which is by definition marginalized.

an insular , organizedminority can have a much greater affect on a political system, especially when laws are bent (such as hate speech laws) to protect the minority. the fact that millions of muslims along with non muslims rage against muslim extremism doesn't make the extremist minority any less protected. once the majority of muslims joins the call against extremists they simply blend into the majority. they call for secularism and integration. The small group that remains calling for shariah law and temporary multiculturalism remains protected and remains distinct. moderates melt in with the 'intolerant nationalists' and the extremists remain 'oppressed and marginalized minorites' deserving of 'tolerance.'

it is widely accepted and pretty apparent if you look at how legislation works, that small, organized groups have much greater sway then unorganized masses. What about the anti war movement and the BNP? You forget that the majority they were waging political war with were ALSO organized, and with institutional advantages.

I said unorganized majority v. organized minority probably = win for minority. But organized minority vs. organized majority doesn't = win for minority. The principle is that minorities are; 1. easier to organize (this principle has been known since the times of roman conquest) and; 2. often protected by special laws whereas majorities are not.

A definiton/anti definiton of 'organized' --->
organized = have hired lobbyists, and represent a 'special interest'....organization does not equal "same general goal"

Here's the most cliche example for americans. Where's the 'tax payers' interest group? There really isnt' one. There's groups that purport to represent tax payers interests. But generally those groups are representatives for the business sector, not 'all tax payers.' "tax payers" don't unite, even though they are the largest interest in america because they are so dispersed on other issues and taxation is so prevalent that it's like political 'air.'

Similarly. Even thought he vast majority of britons and muslims are anti extremism. Anti extremism is just so ever-present as a belieft hat people don't spend time and resources uniting against it the way extremists spend time and resources pushing it.

this is sloppy i admit. but you have to realize the basic principle that majorities are outsmarted all the time by organized, single minded minorities. its the story of politics. from monarchy to federalist 10 to the nra to hate speech laws.

Originally posted by joewalker
what was the reports conclusion?

The reports conclusions are not comforting.

www.policyexchange.org.uk...

"This report has tried to offer some explanations for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, but it has not presented a straightforward solution to ‘the problem of terrorism’. This is not because there are not specific things the Government can do to reduce the potential terrorist threat – there are very many measures that will improve the security services, such as enhanced intelligence gathering and limiting the room for extremists to manoeuvre in the UK. However, there is no quick-fix policy that one can implement tomorrow that will deal with the broader cultural factors that this report has tried to explore."

In other words, if there are Muslims in the UK, unless broad cultural factors change, we are going to have a small minority who want to be Islamic terrorists.

Actually, about 1 person a week is convicted in the UK for Islamic terrorist offences, so while the numbers are small in comparison to the size of the British Muslim community, it is still a significant problem in absolute terms.

Originally posted by joewalker
One in three sounds far worse than 36%. What about the other 64%, otherwise known as the majority, who don't hold those views?

They don't want British Muslims who leave Islam executed.

Originally posted by joewalker
I haven't read the full report, just the exec summary. Did the question differentiate between types of veils? Personally, I only have a problem with the niqab and burka.

Muslims who advocate Muslim women wearing veils were responding to two question

I prefer that Muslim women choose to wear the veil

I prefer that Muslim women choose not to wear the veil

"Younger respondents expressed a much greater preference for Muslim women to choose the veil; 74% of 16-24 year olds chose this statement, compared to only 28% of 55+ year olds. There was no significant difference between men and women on this issue. The response to this question is very surprising, considering how few women actually do choose to wear the veil. One possible explanation for the gap may be that respondents are making a political statement of support, rather than expressing a genuine desire to see women wear the veil. Alternatively, some respondents may have taken the word ‘veil’ to refer to the headscarf more generally, which is far more commonly worn. Either way, it seems that younger Muslims consider religious clothing to be more important than older Muslims."

Originally posted by joewalker
Ah and finally the penny drops, I was getting worried at your worrying for a second. By second and third generation, you are actually refering to British citizens who happen to Muslims, yes?

To quote the report

"The starting point of this report is recognition that the rise of radical Islam in Britain is not simply a ‘foreign problem’ which we can shut out; rather, it is partly fuelled by cultural and political trends that have their origins in the West. The homegrown terrorists we have seen in the UK are not alien to the British way of life, but are, at least in part, derivative from it."

My fears are in line with the reports findings

"The findings of the opinion survey in this report confirm that a growing number of young Muslims are becoming radicalised and are growing apart from the mainstream."

"Sageman was able to identify three major consistencies, all of which appear counter-intuitive: the jihadists were usually radicalised in Western countries; they were likely to have had a relatively secular upbringing; and the majority were not recruited ‘top down’ but actively sought out terrorist networks."

"Only a minority of people described as ‘radicalised’ or ‘extremist’ Muslims is likely to commit or plan terrorist attacks. This group is extremely small and there is little evidence to show that radical Islamist terrorist groups constitute a mass social movement in Western society."

"In surveys conducted in Britain after the London bombings, the majority of Muslims fully denounced the attacks and disputed the religious legitimacy of jihadist groups."

"However, there has been a rise in what the French scholar, Olivier Roy, calls ‘reli-giosity’ amongst younger Muslims in the UK, of second and third generation immigrant origin.9 Whilst the number of actual or potential terrorists remains small, it can be construed as an extremely acute expression of a broader shift towards the ‘Islamicisation’ of identity throughout Europe, and a growing interest in neo-religious ideas."

reply to post by ollncasino

The reports conclusions are not comforting.

Getting the spin in first eh, good lad. Can I just say (and with apologies to LoC) that Im always wary of those who tell me how to think and who to hate and fear.
Anyhoo..

In other words, if there are Muslims in the UK, unless broad cultural factors change, we are going to have a small minority who want to be Islamic terrorists.

Or as one of the conclusions states "a small minority of a minority". Hmmm, are you suggesting that no other minority of a minority have terrorististic tendencies? Irish nationalism perhaps and from what group did the Soho nail bomber come?

The report actually says that it has tried to explore the broad cultural factors that lead to [islamic] extremism.

More later when I have actually read the full report.

Re: the Veil question. The report states that:

"Younger respondents expressed a much greater preference for Muslim women to choose the veil; 74% of 16-24 year olds chose this statement, compared to only 28% of 55+ year olds. There was no significant difference between men and women on this issue. The response to this question is very surprising, considering how few women actually do choose to wear the veil. One possible explanation for the gap may be that respondents are making a political statement of support, rather than expressing a genuine desire to see women wear the veil.
Alternatively, some respondents may have taken the word ‘veil’ to refer to the headscarf more generally, which is far more commonly worn. Either way, it seems that younger Muslims consider religious clothing to be more important than older Muslims."

So a bit of a useless question then. Muslims may or may not prefer muslim women to wear a veil or headscarf for reasons which may or may not be political rather than religous?
Yep, the islamification of Britain continues apace.

My fears are in line with the reports findings

Hmmm, that a minority of younger muslims are, through as yet unanounced political, social and cultural trends in Britain, growing apart from mainstream muslim thought.

That a majority of muslims denounced the 7/7 murders.

That there is little evidence that radical Islamist terrorist groups constitute a mass social movement in Western society.

That a majority of British Muslims dispute the religous legitimacy of jihadist groups.

Why would you fear the denouncement of terrorism?

reply to post by ollncasino

36% of 16-24 year olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared to 19% of 55+ year olds.

Wow, thats an alarming number indeed, is this study credible? I did not know that one third of young muslims are brainwashed extremists. They could be quite a big threat in the future..

reply to post by snusfanatic

Hey snufantastic, sorry for the late reply, I had one ready to go but the internet ate it. Though personally i'd blame ollncasino

I think you make a very good point about the role of pressure groups and lobbyists within the political decision making process and a reminder that we should all be aware of who is trying to influence policy.

I said unorganized majority v. organized minority probably = win for minority. But organized minority vs. organized majority doesn't = win for minority. The principle is that minorities are; 1. easier to organize (this principle has been known since the times of roman conquest) and; 2. often protected by special laws whereas majorities are not.

But in an elective democracy the ultimate approval or otherwise for legislation lies with the majority. If people dont like the direction or policy that government is taking then the majority can vote them out.

but you have to realize the basic principle that majorities are outsmarted all the time by organized, single minded minorities. its the story of politics. from monarchy to federalist 10 to the nra to hate speech laws.

Majorities are only 'outsmarted' imho, because not enough folk take time to actually understand what the politicians are up to.

Did the fact that Reagan and H Bush sold arms to a 'terroristic islamic state' stop either from being re-elected?

What about the school text books found in Afghanistani class rooms, which taught kids about violent jihad and imposing islamic law, that W and Mrs Bush found so shocking were actually developed by the university of Nebraska in the mid 1980's. We needed radical islam to fight the soviets.

Tangled webs...

Originally posted by joewalker
Or as one of the conclusions states "a small minority of a minority". Hmmm, are you suggesting that no other minority of a minority have terrorististic tendencies? Irish nationalism perhaps and from what group did the Soho nail bomber come?

An interesting argument. If not all terrorists are Islamic terrorists, then who are we to point the finger at Islamic terrorists?

I think you need to think that one through again.

Originally posted by joewalker
One in three sounds far worse than 36%. What about the other 64%, otherwise known as the majority, who don't hold those views?

(the view that Muslims who leave Islam should be executed).

If 1 in 3 lodgers in my house believed in some sky god and wanted to kill people who no longer believed in their sky god, then I would be quite concerned living in the same house as those particular Sky god believers.

You appear to feel there would be no cause for alarm.

Go figure.

A reasonable man would perhaps conclude that only people who believed in that particular sky god and also thought people who no longer believed in him should be executed, would not feel alarmed.

Does the cap fit?

Here are the figures again

Almost 1 in 5 British Muslims over the age of 55 (19%) believe in the death penalty for leaving Islam

1 in 3 young Muslims (36%) between 16-24 year olds believe that someone leaving Islam should be put to death.

www.policyexchange.org.uk...

It is important to remember that most British Muslims don't believe in the death penalty for leaving Islam. Still, those are some pretty worrying minorities.