Feminism: Destroying the Male and Female Relationship

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Bottom line.

If you make love to each woman as if she is the world's biggest liar, pants on fire, and act accordingly, well, you should have all your bases covered.

Puns most definitely intended.

The puns were good, sadly contraception isn't always effective (depending upon the kind used). Condoms if used carefully are pretty damn good and tbh they should always be used anyway. People seem to concentrate on pregnancy and forget the whole STD aspect. Even so the debate needs to be had beyond the contraception and taken to the point where a pregnancy is happening. Contraception is 50/50, what happens after is 100% the womans choice and that is unfair. I don't mean the actual choice should be changed, it is the womans body i simply mean the financial arrangments and legal consequences, including paternity testing in couuntries like the UK that seem to be lagging behind others.

I never thought i would see the day where the USA would have more even and advanced paternity laws.

For shame.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Yep it happens on both sides and i'm pretty sure i said that

I misunderstood what you meant by people hiding behind organizations and labels then. I thought you were referring to feminism and women's rights organizations since I can't recall any men's rights organizations off the top of my head.

I do like to be fair but lets face it, men can't really raise these issues without being labelled misogynists, whereas women can usually raise their issues and be labelled as strong women fighting the good fight.

I think perhaps it has something to do with the way those issues are raised. Many times in this thread and similar ones, male posters come across as though they're blaming everything on women and as though they believe everything was perfect before women were given the freedom to exercise their rights. Certainly not all of them, but some of them do. Female posters are naturally going to take offense when they feel like they personally are being targeted or when they read a post that does little more than blame women for society's ills. No reasonable person will sit back and accept blame for something they didn't do and aren't responsible for.

Expecting one gender to be solely responsible for making sure something does or does not happen is wrong, regardless of which gender it is or what that something happens to be whether it's pregnancy, financially supporting offspring, or whatever. I had the great misfortune of participating in a conversation with someone recently who firmly believed that I should quit my job and stay home with the kids because that was my place and that a man should be given my job so that he could support his family because that's his place and I apparently am making my hubby feel less manly by working. He was wrong of course, but that truly is a misogynistic belief and should be called such.

Pointing out the problems in the way custody and child support are handled isn't misogynistic in itself, but the way they are pointed out can be. Just as the way women point out issues can be misandrist. (Misandrous? What is the proper term for that? )

Originally posted by Jenna
I misunderstood what you meant by people hiding behind organizations and labels then. I thought you were referring to feminism and women's rights organizations since I can't recall any men's rights organizations off the top of my head.

I don't mean organisations, just how some men and some women use labels to disregard what someone else says. A man dares to say that women have unfair rights in areas like divorce law and he's a misogynist, a woman dares to say men have unfair rights in specific areas of employment law and they're labelled as misandrists. This is kind of the issue.

Originally posted by Jenna
I think perhaps it has something to do with the way those issues are raised. Many times in this thread and similar ones, male posters come across as though they're blaming everything on women and as though they believe everything was perfect before women were given the freedom to exercise their rights. Certainly not all of them, but some of them do. Female posters are naturally going to take offense when they feel like they personally are being targeted or when they read a post that does little more than blame women for society's ills. No reasonable person will sit back and accept blame for something they didn't do and aren't responsible for.

This can easily be reversed, some male posters have simply raised concerns over some very specific issues and been continually labelled as misogynists or even worse when they point out that women may be equally as likely to be the instigators of domestic violence as men they are labelled as abusers! There are some genuine misandrists and misogynists in this thread of course.

Originally posted by Jenna
Expecting one gender to be solely responsible for making sure something does or does not happen is wrong, regardless of which gender it is or what that something happens to be whether it's pregnancy, financially supporting offspring, or whatever. I had the great misfortune of participating in a conversation with someone recently who firmly believed that I should quit my job and stay home with the kids because that was my place and that a man should be given my job so that he could support his family because that's his place and I apparently am making my hubby feel less manly by working. He was wrong of course, but that truly is a misogynistic belief and should be called such.

I believe someone should stay home with the kids, male or female it isn't important. However that brings to light another rather sad issue that Bob Geldof covered in a documentary which shows the difference of opinion between men and women. Men who had their kids over during divorce proceedings were told not to allow the children in their beds as it could be deemed suspicious, but of course we wouldn't think a woman having her child in the bed is suspicious. I find that kind of sad, it just seems men are thought of as evil or more likely to do certain things.

Originally posted by Jenna
Pointing out the problems in the way custody and child support are handled isn't misogynistic in itself, but the way they are pointed out can be. Just as the way women point out issues can be misandrist. (Misandrous? What is the proper term for that?

)

But when we point them out we are deemed misogynists simplyu for pointing them out and of course that will cause arguments. In this age it is the men who are on the defensive over such issues because raising them means we will be labelled as defacto sexists.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I don't mean organisations, just how some men and some women use labels to disregard what someone else says. A man dares to say that women have unfair rights in areas like divorce law and he's a misogynist, a woman dares to say men have unfair rights in specific areas of employment law and they're labelled as misandrists. This is kind of the issue.

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies.

People like to toss labels about, especially here. An "If you're not with me, you're against me and I will sling mud til something sticks" kind of thing. From what I've noticed it's more often the way it's said than what is said that causes friction, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when dealing with the written word. It's too easy to insert your own tone and imagine that's how the other person meant something.

Men who had their kids over during divorce proceedings were told not to allow the children in their beds as it could be deemed suspicious, but of course we wouldn't think a woman having her child in the bed is suspicious. I find that kind of sad, it just seems men are thought of as evil or more likely to do certain things.

Statistically speaking, most perpetrators of child molestation are men so that's likely why it's seen as suspicious. Personally I think it's ridiculous to expect every man to turn into a pedophile when left alone with a child. I remember my dad would let me fall asleep in bed with him while he read me stories when mom was at work when I was around 4 years old. There was nothing wrong with it then and there's nothing wrong with it now.

But when we point them out we are deemed misogynists simplyu for pointing them out and of course that will cause arguments. In this age it is the men who are on the defensive over such issues because raising them means we will be labelled as defacto sexists.

I think everyone's on the defensive. Generally speaking men seem to expect women to either take offense or rip them a new one for everything they say, and women seem to expect men to be chauvinist pigs.

reply to post by rusethorcain


That is what we call Echo-Feminists. Males that have been brainwashed by their g/fs, wives, sisters, aunts or mothers or TV to view the underachievement of women in the areas you mentioned as OPPRESSION. This is a blatant lie. Men tend to excel in certain areas where women tend to excel in others. While men don't seem too phased about not topping the Best Nurses List or Best Beauty Salon owners List, a large group of women ARE very bothered by the fact that when they are competing with men, men tend to dominate them. That is why we have things like "equal gender representation" and "best women authors" lists.

Women are adults. They are not victims by virtue of their sex. They do not deserve to replace men in jobs where the men have better skills, the same as men don't deserve to replace women in jobs (could you imagine the outcry?) where women have better skills.

reply to post by Jenna


Do you understand the difference between addressing an Ideology and addressing another person? I was referring to the Feminist Ideology. I was not referring to you or any other person in particular. I don't know you, you don't know me. But I can recognise arguments that stem from Feminist Ideology and I will call it out when I see it.

reply to post by riley


Just like women who voluntarily go back to the houses of sports stars surely know there is "some risk" of the them and the sports star having sex? Or are all these young women so naive to think they are being invited back to a man's house to have hot chocolate and marshmallows at 3:00am after a night of drinking?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by riley
What.. so you would expect a woman to either go through the trauma of choosing abortion so you can have the choice to walk away.. or take the risk of having the baby where you still might walk away at any time cuz being a daddy is too difficult? Do you really think thats fair? :shk:

It's a decision the woman has to undertake, she doesn't have to abort she can keep it and work to support it, just like many single mothers do.

Single mothers who live in poverty because the father has taken off and left them in the lurch? Nice.

Conception is 50/50, keeping it is a 100% decision of the woman and therefore it is her responsibility, why are you so utterly against women taking responsibility for their actions?

I made no such claim and resent the implication. Women are responsible for their own actions.. yet so are men. Once a baby is born it is it's own being and has two parents like it or not. It is not "more her responsibilty" just because she did not choose to kill it during gestestion.

Being forced to have a child you don't want isn't about manning up and btw manning up is a deeply sexist statement.

How is it sexist? Only MEN can father a child so "manning up" is the correct term. Also (aside from school teachers taking advantage of teenage boys) how is a man "forced" to have child he does not want? Are you claiming all these men who cause unplanned pregnancies are raped?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by riley

 

Just like women who voluntarily go back to the houses of sports stars surely know there is "some risk" of the them and the sports star having sex?

..to have consentual sex that results in an unplanned pregnancy? He takes that risk. There have indeed been a cases where women have stolen used condoms from sports stars and impregnated themselves to try extort money. In these cases I do not think they should have to pay and the women should be charged with some sort of violation/rape.

Or are all these young women so naive to think they are being invited back to a man's house to have hot chocolate and marshmallows at 3:00am after a night of drinking?

edit on 3/11/2010 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

"These women"? Yes some women would be naive enough to believe it (and may be also be risking date rape).. but believe it or not there are other reasons to go back to someone's place apart from sex. Not everyone is obsessed with getting layed. For instance sharing a joint/doing drugs after a night out is a very common activity. Sometimes people want to keep partying.. and sometimes unplanned sex happens and does not require an evil, sinister female agenda to result in pregnancy. Human beings are animals and women cannot just switch their fertility on and off according to a man's wishes. If he does not like the fact that sex can make a baby he should take precautions to make sure it doesn't and so should she.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Yes I can. I'm also capable of recognizing a paraphrased and twisted version of my own words when I see it. To say that you weren't referring to me when your post paraphrased and twisted my words and was in response to another post that had been written in response to mine strikes me as rather dishonest.

Originally posted by riley
Single mothers who live in poverty because the father has taken off and left them in the lurch? Nice.

Erm the woman didn't have to have the child, it is her choice to have it even if she has trouble paying for it. The father has no choice in whether that child is born and so should not be financially tied if he doesn't want to be. The man is 50/50 responsible for the pregnancy, the women is 100% responsible for it coming to term and therefore it's up to her to pay for it. If the man wants to be a part of the hilds life then yeah he needs to help her out.

Originally posted by riley
I made no such claim and resent the implication. Women are responsible for their own actions.. yet so are men. Once a baby is born it is it's own being and has two parents like it or not. It is not "more her responsibilty" just because she did not choose to kill it during gestestion.

Actually it is completely her responsibility if she chooses to bring it to term, you can twist that any way you like but it's the truth. That is her choice, no one elses.

Originally posted by riley
How is it sexist? Only MEN can father a child so "manning up" is the correct term. Also (aside from school teachers taking advantage of teenage boys) how is a man "forced" to have child he does not want? Are you claiming all these men who cause unplanned pregnancies are raped?

edit on 3-11-2010 by riley because: (no reason given)

Manning up is an unfair term because it's associated with men acting differently to women. If a woman is having a hard time and cries her eyes out she is helped, if a man does the same he is told to "man up" in the same way you are using the phrase, therefore it's a sexist, unfair, unequal comment.

A man is forced to have a child when there is an option to abort it and that option is not taken. He has no choice and no say, he doesn't want to be a father but becomes one anyway. Force doesn't always require violence like rape, legal force is pretty effective. Why are you so against women taking responsibility for their actions? It is the woman alone who decides to keep the child or not. The man also needs to take responsibility, either by being a part of the childs life and paying for it or by signing away all of his rights and keeping his money.

Do you honestly think that a father signing away his rights is not taking responsibility? That's a very big thing and i am sure many fathers would choose to be a part of the childs life. All i'm suggesting is that the field is levelled.

reply to post by Jenna


Sorry, what?

My statement was a sarcastic one attempting to highlight how the Feminist Ideals sprouted by members in this thread have no basis in reality. I was not paraphrasing you. I was not even speaking to you in that post, but rather summarising the standard responses from female posters when genuine criticisms of the Feminist movement are made. Read through the replies in this thread if you do not believe me.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by riley
Single mothers who live in poverty because the father has taken off and left them in the lurch? Nice.

Erm the woman didn't have to have the child, it is her choice to have it even if she has trouble paying for it.

So her other choice is to go through the trauma of having an abortion lest she and the kid be condemned to poveher The father has no choice in whether that child is born and so should not be financially tied if he doesn't want to be. The man is 50/50 responsible for the pregnancy, the women is 100% responsible for it coming to term and therefore it's up to her to pay for it. If the man wants to be a part of the hilds life then yeah he needs to help her out.
So her choices are to either go through the trauma of killing a baby she may want or raise it in poverty while he just walks away? Threatening a woman with poverty so she'll have an abortion is a lowlife act.

Originally posted by riley
So her choices are to either go through the trauma of killing a baby she may want or raise it in poverty while he just walks away? Threatening a woman with poverty so she'll have an abortion is a lowlife act.

Excuse me, you keep saying the guy knew the possible consequences of having sex, well guess what, that works both ways. The woman knows that abortion is a possible final outcome of pregnancy. No one is threatening anyone with poverty, in the UK a single mother gets plenty of benefits. And of course the father has no rights when he gives the woman money, none. In the UK when a father gives the woman money she can still prevent him from seeing his children because the courts have no real power to make her give access.

My aunt raised her child on her own and they didn't live even near the poverty line, even though the father didn't give her any money. In fact my parents had less money than my aunt and they are married!

Oh and lets be clear riley, you are condemning the father to poverty because when men have their income cut they often can't afford to have a house anymore, they end up in a grotty little flat and guess where the woman lives. She lives a pretty decent life because the money she takes from the husband is bolstered by the government.

The system is utterly one sided.

reply to post by Dark Ghost

That is what we call Echo-Feminists. Males that have been brainwashed by their g/fs, wives, sisters, aunts or mothers or TV to view the underachievement of women in the areas you mentioned as OPPRESSION.

This is rich. Lazy men who won't go out and get a job and lay on the sofa all day watching TV and eating cheetos are OPPRESSED. OMG You are pouring it on pretty thick now...even for you.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


jan.ucc.nau.edu...

My mother, working poor and a product of the conservative and patriarchal South, simply raised me as most women are taught to raise boys:
The world was mine, there were no chores to speak of, and my aggressions were considered somewhat normal, something that we boys carry out as a rite of passage.
Those "rites" included me routinely squeezing girls' butts on the playground.
And at school boys were encouraged to do "boy" things: work and build with our hands, fight each other, and participate in the most daring activities during our gym time.
Meanwhile, the girls were relegated to home economics, drawing cute pictures, and singing in the school choir. Now that I think about it, school was the place that spearheaded the omission of women from my worldview. Save Betsy Ross (whom I remember chiefly for sewing a flag) and a stoic Rosa Parks (she was unfurled every year as an example of Black achievement), I recall virtually no women making appearances is my American history classes.
The church my mother and I attended, like most Black churches, was peopled mainly by Black women, most of them single parents, who dragged their children along for the ride.
Not once did I see a preacher who was anything other than an articulate, emotionally charged, well-coiffed, impeccably suited Black man running this church and, truly, these women.
And behind the pulpit of this Black man, where he convinced us we were doomed to hell if we did not get right with God, was the image of our savior, a male, always White, named Jesus Christ.
Not surprisingly the "savior" I wanted in my life was my father.
Ten years her senior, my father met my mother, my father wooed my mother, my father impregnated my mother, and then my father as per his socialization—moved on to the next mating call.

Though old fashioned and outdated by modern standard, this is the story of a million men...this guy is quite brave for telling his story - why he is a recovering "misogynist."

Now tell me he is lying.
Tell me it doesn't happen just like this in millions of cases
and if it does...well you know the rest...

Originally posted by rusethorcain

Though old fashioned and outdated by modern standard, this is the story of a million men..

And you personally also know these million men,you were there at the time and lived there with them all and it was in no doubt not the mothers fault or want for the split,you also know that the million men want nothing to do with their children.They all just simply ran off to chase more skirt.

This is the story of a million one eyed feminist extremist.

reply to post by gps777


I think you have gone around the bend and over the side...

What more can I say? Now you are calling a man telling his side of it a liar.
If you don't know what you are talking about and just taking random pot shots to keep on the topic - why not stay out of the conversation?

Bring a dish... or stay home.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by gps777

 

I think you have gone around the bend and over the side...

What more can I say? Now you are calling a man telling his side of it a liar.
If you don't know what you are talking about and just taking random pot shots to keep on the topic - why not stay out of the conversation?

Bring a dish... or stay home.

This is now getting very odd, gps was simply saying that one mans story doesn't mean all men are the same or that this one man can speak for a million men and yet you read that as him calling this one man a liar. As always your bias shows on everything you post, you read what you think is there and reply to it instead of what is actually there and then you play the victim.

Why not just stay on topic because tbh rusethorcain i can't see what the purpose of linking this article was about, it didn't add anything other than to reinforce your own view of men.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Why not myob?

If this thread and the misogynist thread ended, life would be over for you, wouldn't it?

Now run crying to the mods and have my post removed.
At least this time it will be legit.