Feminism: Destroying the Male and Female Relationship

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

Not all men. The ones I love are grateful. The rest are just nice scenery.

Hey now hang on there, the scenery you refer to are people, why do you consider it ok to objectify men but objectifying women is wrong and sexist? As for the ones you love being grateful, well some abused wives are grateful for their husband, it's because they don't know anything better.

Oh, can't you tell when I am kidding?
This continuous misunderstanding is going to ruin our male female relationship.

Please.
Will someone spot a UFO?

Edit:

Once you get past the male/female shell game and begin to see individuals as simply souls, you'll come much closer to realizing the nature of the person.

This is all you ever need to know.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
Oh, can't you tell when I am kidding?
This continuous misunderstanding is going to ruin our male female relationship.

Because you're not kidding, you are now trying to cover up your rather unpleasant misandry by labelling it as humour, nice try but it's not going to work.

Character, integrity, courage.
Either you have those or you don't and it doesn't matter whether you are male or female.

It's easy to use the opposite sex as a scapegoat if you are a little simpleminded and that is all you can come up with. Most people know the world and relationships are a little more complicated than that.

My friend Paul told me just tonight he hated to rent his trailers by the lake to women because if there is any problem and he tries to kick them out they go to the law and say he is really kicking them out because they refused his sexual advances. He has to bring another person along with him to issue eviction notices just for this reason. Men don't do that however the men he rented to were not much better. They trashed the place and ripped out the air conditioners to sell them.

Character, integrity, courage. You need them all.

You are a spineless, corruptible, weasel without them.

reply to post by rusethorcain


Err yeah i think everyone agrees integrity and such things are important, but what exactly has this got to do with feminism destroying the male-female relationship? Oh course i think the OP's original post is incorrect but the premise works if we use "extremist feminism" or "unequal feminism" to define the problems surrounding the areas where men are treated badly. This isn't to say there are areas where women are also not being treated fairly, it is simply highlighting that men are in many situations at the unfair end and this causes tension.

Not that we'll see many men walking down the street burning jockstraps anytime soon, and lets face it, no one wants that. Imagine the smell!

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by ADUB77

 

I have just as much of a moral obligation to provide for my children as my husband does. The responsibility for that does not fall solely on his shoulders. To say that it does places an unfair burden on him, and I for one am more than happy to help shoulder that burden rather than let him kill himself trying to support us all on his own especially with the current state of our economy.

I worked hard to obtain the job I currently have and you're out of your mind if you think I would willing give it up to someone less qualified whether they are male or female. Should I lose my job, that's one thing. To just quit so that a man can have it is quite another and I'll not be giving up what I've worked hard for just so a man can feel more manly.


Edit: And Loki,

edit on 12-9-2010 by Jenna because: Added my edit because it wasn't worth it's own post.

For a woman to be the "keeper of the home" is also a huge responsibility. If done right, it all balances out. The man is the provider and protector of his family, and the woman is the keeper of the home and children. Have you ever wondered why today our children are out of control? No moms at home, no dads around. They are being raised by a community. The family has be balanced.

Women are becoming more like men and men are becoming more like women. Pretty soon men will be painting their nails and start carrying purses. And I wouldn't be surprised if Kramer's idea of the bro will become popular in a few years. Women will stop shaving their legs and armpits and start shaving their hair like men. I never thought I would see the day where women would actually think tatoos looked attractive. The only group that would get tattoos were military people and bikers. Times are a chang'n... what a crazy world we live in.

I only read the OP's first post so I don't know what others have said on this topic but I'd have to say that feminism has gotten way out of hand.

Back in the day, it was to help women be acknowledged as equals to men but now, women aren't happy with being equal. They think that they should be better then all men and that's where they are basically screwing themselves. If it is wrong for a man to think that he is above a woman then what in the world makes women think that it's perfectly acceptable for all women to think of themselves as better or above all men? That's just stupid.

How is it offensive? You dont have to agree with it of course but denying that women dont have the natural instincts to love, nourish, and care for their mate and children is not logical.

I know this was directed towards someone else but I had to reply to this part.

I think that all women have a natural instinct to nourish, love and care but those feelings are not always directed towards their mate or children. Some women have absolutely no use for children so if they had to look after one, they would not be a good choice because they don't like children yet they are very loving and caring with animals and have no problems looking after a cat or dog.

While it's wrong to deny that women don't have natural instincts to love, nourish and care, it is silly to say that all women have those feelings when it comes to a husband or especially children when so many do not.

Originally posted by WeRpeons
Women are becoming more like men and men are becoming more like women. Pretty soon men will be painting their nails and start carrying purses. And I wouldn't be surprised if Kramer's idea of the bro will become popular in a few years. Women will stop shaving their legs and armpits and start shaving their hair like men.

I never thought I would see the day where women would actually think tatoos looked attractive. The only group that would get tattoos were military people and bikers. Times are a chang'n... what a crazy world we live in.

So I guess that means we will still have the same sort of couples except the roles will be reversed?
Doesn't seem very much like any change at all.

reply to post by rusethorcain


or maybe it will mean that people, men and women, will be more free to be who they are instead of finding themselves pressured by the stereotypes into being something they aren't??

women are no longer being pushed into the role of motherhood, but there are plenty who are choosing to be mothers!! and I imagine that they are much happier than they would be if the choice wasn't theirs to make!!

reply to post by dawnstar


Now, who couldn't agree with that?

reply to post by rusethorcain


I don't agree with that, because the statistics used for it are misleading.

The areas of the world with the highest growth rates are not countries with equal rights.

As it stands now, in part due to the feminist movement, we are being "outbred" by people with different ideals. That means we loses, btw.

If you disagree, please post the birthrates for natural born citizens vs immigrants. And, as shown by the media, a growing number of immigrants are not adhering to our ideals.

reply to post by peck420


Sorry i don't mean to take this off topic but why do we "lose" if there are more people of a different race? I didn't realise there was a competition going on to outbreed the other races.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


My "we lose" is in regards to equality rights. As the population of those who have no equality rights, and those who have not grown with or exercise equality rights are growing at substantially faster rates than us.

If they do not have the same drive to keep and uphold equality rights, they will soon (50-100 years) have more than enough population to demand their ways through current electoral practices.

Edit to add: My "outbreed" is not in reference to racial outbreeding. It is in regard to cultural outbreeding. There are 3rd world countries comprised of caucasions that have no equality laws, that are outbreeding us now. Same for any other race. The breeding rates are very much tied to economical and societal factors. Not so much racial factors.

reply to post by peck420

and...so, you would prefer that women give up their rights, just to protect their rights????

ummm.......that's what it seems like you are hinting at....

Some of my thoughts on this subject because in my research I have found this argument to be showing up more and more across the internet. Either way you look at it, relationships are being destabilized especially in the dating world.

One of the most interesting studies I came across is that the pill has almost completely changed how men are viewed by women. Women prefer more "manly" alpha male types as they near their ovulation cycle and then prefer the more nurturing "feminine" type men the rest of their cycles. Because the pill messes with hormone balances specifically dealing with a females cycle, females have evolved to like more feminine type men almost exclusively.

This could explain why men like Zack Effron and Justin T. are looked at as male sex symbols instead of the older alpha male type.

Second, a user earlier talked about how he would like a monogamous relationship, but trades it in for 4 hours with multiple women in order satisfy his needs.

I believe this is due to the needs of women being satisfied by the state and the need for a ongoing exclusive relationship is no longer desired.

Security is provided by Police, fire, and EMT. Women are provided equal pay for unequal work. Women are given almost exclusive privileges by the judicial system. Women are given aid for their children by the state.

These are all traditional male responsibilities within the family which are now provided by the state which means the male role in a relationship is almost obsolete. Women no longer need men for security, offspring care, or finances; they only need periodical emotional connections with men which is also (from my personal experiences) becoming less and less.

Problem is, men still need women and are finding it harder to find a traditional woman to satisfy their needs (which might be why homosexuality is becoming more mainstream)

Just a few random thoughts...

What I find sad in all of this [in particular] is how people think that men are “naturally” aggressive or how women are “naturally” nurturing. It’s a load of crap really. Culture is the main reason we all act as we do. It is the reason why men think that women should be sexual objects just as much the women become objectified in their cultural perceptions of themselves in having to be that way (in order to be accepted). Culture is also the reason that men gripe and whine about women being “too manly” in this modern age of ‘feminism.’ Men (I am a man too by the way) are so used to the gender dynamic of being on top and being catered to that a change in the status quo means a riot; ‘reverse sexism’ is a major example of this. As men and women, we are socialized from birth to act in a certain way; we each have roles to fill. Men are to be strong and independent while women are to be weak and dependent. Men are taught [implicitly] that women are objects to be consumed (commodified) and women are relayed the message that they are to position themselves in such a way. Pornography is the best example: the constant pervasion of images on frequent accounts [of viewing] warps the mind into believing these images are structurally real, when in fact they are mere social constructions; developed notions on how things should be or should be perceived. Advertisements and magazine ads featuring women in poses of being dominated and sexualized are products of a cultural development that has become a prominent part of our consumer society (and even so before then). We have been bombarded since our childhood with all these messages so much that we have taken them as factual observances (e.g. women are whores). Embedded into our psyche, these ‘facts’ make way for a host of problems. All of this anti-feminist ranting is just a cultural plea for maintaining the status quo and wherein reinforcing the boundaries between men and women. Yet people will believe what they believe…

Funny thing is, a friend of mine is taking an English class. One day I met him and he had to read an article that was full of feminist rhetoric. Seeing how he was displeased with having to read it, I inquired, “Don’t care for feminism, huh?” His response was, “I just can’t relate to it.” And I, “Why, because you’re a guy?” His answer? “Pretty much.” Funny, considering that all it means is equal rights for men and women.

You know, I also find it really funny how all these people complain about how the "the family is being destroyed.” Marx was completely against the institution of the family. He felt that it was simply a bourgeois idea, in that the woman has no control over her means of production (e.g. cooking, cleaning, raising children). She is not paid for her labor; she is completely alienated from it. In addition, she is the outlet for the production of new workers; labor that can be utilized by the capitalists to full effect. The housewife is nothing but a slave to the system. Yet now in modern times she plays a dual role of work and homecare, continually exhausted each day by her “second shift.” So now men get what they want, and so do women (but not so much).

I agree with what I’ve had told to me by older generations of women: that this new generation of women has thrown away all of what the older generations have been fighting for for so long. Now they’ve just realigned themselves into the sexist culture of being a tool with multiple uses. It’s sad what has become of them. But even sadder is that the media and the ruling classes are the puppeteers, profiting off of their “false consciousness” (in thinking that they are ‘free’).

reply to post by WeRpeons


I know what you mean. It seems at times that women are just taking over everywhere! I wonder, if women were paid, perhaps by the government, to stay home and be with their children, would this encourage women to stay home? Raising children is the most challenging job in the world. Our children are out of control.

But isn't that a good thing, compared to the lack of power/rights that they formerly had? In academia, women far outnumber men. I think the conception for many men is that college is a "waste of time, that I can get a job without a degree (even a better paying one!)." Men in modern America aren't as intellectually inclined as women. Most, particularly lower-class blacks, Hispanics, whites, etc., tend to have higher dropout rates in high school, have less motivation than women to go to college (e.g. social pride, pressures, group involvement, etc.), and when they do go to college it's usually to "party or get laid." Women typically go because they want an education and a field of work/study that they can dedicate themselves to. But all this is again, a cultural output. In this day and age, men are socialized to be rough, tough, ignorant and sexually available. Their prospects have changed due to the way in which society is more liberally inclined (as opposed to 1950s America). Men of course find intelligent women as being very intimidating (look at Japan; they're an excellent example. Don't expect to get married there if you're a University school woman!)

Getting paid for labor in the household isn't the prime reason why women want out. They want out because they see better prospects. They want the same freedoms as men: to be able to get a job that they want to dedicate themselves to, as opposed to fiddling with home life; to be able to be given equal respect and dignity instead of being considered a production line for children; to be able to go out and party like everyone else without being taken advantage of, being ridiculed or not taken seriously. Women want to be "active," not passive as they were once forced to be. And that's understandable. It's no different than being a black person in pre-Civil Rights America; they barely had anything either. Why should one group have privileges over the other? Doesn't seem fair to me. Sure women are able to have jobs along with men now, but they still have the bigger end of the stick to deal with: they get paid less for equal work, qualifications, etc. AND they [if they're married] have to come home to do a "second shift" of household labor, usually without the man contributing to any of the work while taking advantage of the commonly held notion of it "being the woman's job." (my mom had to do all this while my dad sat on his lazy butt and hung out with the "guys" drinking beer and having a good time; that is unacceptable. So I can relate to all this). Sure women "get away" with divorce and child support, but more often than not, in cases of rape or abuse, the woman isn't taken seriously. Why? "Because she wore provocative clothing and was asking for it (every time I hear this I get angry)" or "she's framing the man because she wants his money." Though I'm a man, I'm sure being a woman is far more difficult than being this gender. We take what we have for granted because we don't have to deal with sexual discrimination (on such a generalized, day-to-day scale), harassment, having children, having periods, having fears about pregnancy, not having social legitimacy, etc. Again I say, as men we HAVE IT MADE. We forget who bore us and put up with us we were children. That's why it frustrates me so much sometimes to hear ridiculous things about how "women are taking over" or "women are destroying the family." And that's coming from someone who's from the South (NC)!

And are children are "out of control" because of the way they are raised. With things like the internet, television, marketing, video games, etc., of course they are going to be difficult to handle. I've heard many a time from my elders about how "In my day, if you acted up you'd get a switch to your behind. Kids these days have no respect for their elders." And why is that? Because we live in a culture that promotes individualism (extremely), so much that it leads to selfishness (blame that on the consumer society; if you have "bling" then you can have anything). It's not men or women that are the problem, it is culture! I cannot emphasize this enough! We men and women are products our culture! We are not "naturally" aggressive or submissive. We are taught to be these ways.

Thing is, if men contributed more to the household like the women do, then maybe there would be less tension on this "family" issue. Conservatives can give it up. The more traditional a society is, the more structurally inclined it is to have a nuclear family (in western terms). The more advanced, not so much (things get very divisive).

reply to post by timeflux

And while you make valid points, I do not think that is what the issue truly is. The system is not balanced. We are coming to a point where soon men will be the ones that are as oppressed as women were in the future. In addition, the modern gender feminists want all the "freedoms" with none of the resulting responsibilities that come from those freedoms. Look at the issues that are brought up in this thread. Every time a person brings up a legitimate criticism of the modern gender feminism movement instead of addressing those issues its either saying they don't exist, man up, women had it bad before now it's mens turn (not in those words), or being called misogynic or trying to take women's rights away. Myself and others have stated numerous times that we do not want any of those things, just for there to be true equality. Gender feminism is supposed to be for equality, but yet will not fight to have women be drafted like men, does not support shared custody, male victims of domestic violence, etc.