PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

reply to post by ChickenPie


You are both right and I would not say he was being nonsensical as such. Yes 5 + 5 = A in Hex, however your point of two objects plus two objects is also correct and 4 is the accepted answer since we dend to work in the decimal system.

The problem here is that you are not giving an example over the base value, whereas he is.

6 objects + 6 objects = 12 in decimal, but it is C in Hex

reply to post by eight bits


By any method of analysing the words atheist or atheism you will come to the conclusion that it means a belief that a god or gods do not exist and/or the lack of belief in a god. Whether or not there is another term with the same meaning is irrelevant to this fact.

reply to post by PuterMan

If you believe there is no God (Atheism)

Again, I don’t believe that there is no god, I just do not believe in a god. The two are not necessarily linked.

One cannot believe there is no god without lacking a belief in a god. However one can lack a belief in a god without believing there is no god.

reply to post by ChickenPie


I understand what you are saying and I think you understand me but we just disagree as to the conclusion.

The lamp analogy is an example you say that it is logical to conclude that the lamp does not exist. I contend that this is illogical. See below.

First of all, there's a problem with your analogy. You never asked me if I thought there was a lamp next to you. If you did, then of course I would have prefaced whatever I was going to say with, "I believe," because I would have no way of knowing. But since you didn't ask me a direct question, then that leaves me with the option of sidestepping the entire issue.

I’m not actually asking you if I have a lamp next to me nor does the analogy come in the form of a question. You are simply presented with the possibility of a lamp, without any other information there are a number of possible conclusions; you claim there are two and I three, this is where the disagreement comes from.

You say that you either believe that there is a lamp or believe that there is not a lamp, I say that you can simply accept the possibility without committing to any positive conclusion.

You've already been confronted with the possibility that there is a God and you have already made the decision to believe there is no God

As with the lamp I say nothing on the existence of god whatsoever.

reply to post by Mike_A

One cannot believe there is no god without lacking a belief in a god. However one can lack a belief in a god without believing there is no god.

Yes indeed. Agnosticism.

reply to post by LightFantastic

In my experience people of all persuasions don't like bad logic though.

And which "bad logic" are you refering to?



Line Dos!!!

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

You are both right and I would not say he was being nonsensical as such. Yes 5 + 5 = A in Hex, however your point of two objects plus two objects is also correct and 4 is the accepted answer since we dend to work in the decimal system.

The problem here is that you are not giving an example over the base value, whereas he is.

6 objects + 6 objects = 12 in decimal, but it is C in Hex

I'm simply saying there exists some truths in our universe. For example, two objects plus two other objects equals four objects. You could label that 4 a X, 5, 6, or call it Apple, but that doesn't change the truth that those two objects are now grouped with two other objects.

reply to post by PuterMan


Oh dear lord!

Two words can have the same or similar meanings.

Originally posted by Mike_A
As with the lamp I say nothing on the existence of god whatsoever.

You're not an atheist?

reply to post by ChickenPie


I did answer the question??? I am not talking about algebra.

I have 2 apples and you give me 2 apples.

If you ask me how many apples I have, I could say "one one" answering in ternary or "one zero" answering in quaternary or "four" in decimal.

Some cultures, like Chumashan for example, only have quaternary as a number base.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by LightFantastic]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by LightFantastic

 

In my experience people of all persuasions don't like bad logic though.

And which "bad logic" are you refering to?

That lack of a belief is a belief.

reply to post by ChickenPie


I'm starting to believe this is just a wind up now.

I thought we agreed that atheism means (among other things) that one lacks a belief in a god. No?

The lack of a belief implies nothing of the existence or none existence of god, I therefore am an atheist (agnostic atheist if it makes things clearer) and say nothing on the existence of god.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

You are both right and I would not say he was being nonsensical as such. Yes 5 + 5 = A in Hex, however your point of two objects plus two objects is also correct and 4 is the accepted answer since we dend to work in the decimal system.

The problem here is that you are not giving an example over the base value, whereas he is.

6 objects + 6 objects = 12 in decimal, but it is C in Hex

Since we are arguing semantics in this thread he is not correct in saying 2+2=4 is a 'truth' as it relies on other information to become a fact. A truth should be a fact in itself. "2+2=4 in base 10" is a truth.

"2+2=4" is generally correct in most cultures but not a truth.

If you know what I mean

Originally posted by LightFantastic
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

I did answer the question??? I am not talking about algebra.

I have 2 apples and you give me 2 apples.

If you ask me how many apples I have, I could say "one one" answering in ternary or "one zero" answering in quaternary or "four" in decimal.

Some cultures, like Chumashan for example, only have quaternary as a number base.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by LightFantastic]

It doesn't matter how you describe four objects... the way you describe them has no bearing on what they actually are. That's because those four objects represent a truth.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by Mike_A

 

One cannot believe there is no god without lacking a belief in a god. However one can lack a belief in a god without believing there is no god.

Yes indeed. Agnosticism.

Agnosticism does not exclude that you believe in a god. All it means is that you can not or do not know a god exists. But you can still have the believe or lack the believe a god exists.

Agnostic atheism
Agnostic theist

Since agnosticism does not forbid belief in a deity, it is compatible with most theistic positions.

Originally posted by LightFantastic

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

You are both right and I would not say he was being nonsensical as such. Yes 5 + 5 = A in Hex, however your point of two objects plus two objects is also correct and 4 is the accepted answer since we dend to work in the decimal system.

The problem here is that you are not giving an example over the base value, whereas he is.

6 objects + 6 objects = 12 in decimal, but it is C in Hex

Since we are arguing semantics in this thread he is not correct in saying 2+2=4 is a 'truth' as it relies on other information to become a fact. A truth should be a fact in itself. "2+2=4 in base 10" is a truth.

"2+2=4" is generally correct in most cultures but not a truth.

If you know what I mean

When I wrote 2 + 2 = 4 I was relating that to something you'd see in reality, like 4 baseballs for example. Like I wrote before, it doesn't matter how you label 4 objects... it's not going to change their reality any. I'm sorry this is going over your head.

reply to post by Mike_A

Two words can have the same or similar meanings

Yes indeed, but since you are in the UK and I am British let us take a look at the definitions in the Oxford English Dictionary since they are what I grew up with.

Atheist - a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods

Agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God

Those two things are not the same, and not in my opinion similar.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

I'm starting to believe this is just a wind up now.

You can't say, "I have nothing to say in regard to whether or not God exists," and then call yourself an atheist.

Why do you lack belief in God?

reply to post by ChickenPie

I can see you don't quite get it, which is not a problem, so I wont continue to argue my case on this point.

Happy debating!

reply to post by LightFantastic


Yes I know what you mean, however I did not say that either of you were speaking the truth, just that you were both right (in terms of the base reference being assumed by the person speaking)

White man speak with forked tongue!!

reply to post by PuterMan


reply to post by PuterMan

I don’t see where that definition of atheism differs from my own.

Is a person who lacks a belief in a god(s) not exactly the same as a person who does not believe in the existence of God or god?

I’ll concede that the OED’s definition of atheist and agnostic are not the same but they nevertheless support what I have said. I am still an atheist which could be complemented by saying that I am an agnostic atheist.

Originally posted by LightFantastic
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

I can see you don't quite get it, which is not a problem, so I wont continue to argue my case on this point.

Happy debating!

No, I get what you're saying. You tried and failed to argue that two objects plus two objects does not equal four in all cases, without knowing that I was talking about the actual reality of those two objects combining with two other objects, which is a truth that exists outside of any man-made system.

But yeah, good luck with that whole pseudo-intellectual thing.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]