PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

Originally posted by -PLB-
As for the theory from the bible, where is the fossil evidence for it? As far as I know there isn't a single fossil that is out of place and can not be explained by evolution. If all species were created, we should have plenty of these kind of examples right? Or were all species created in such a chronological order that is looks like they evolved like that?

Most fundamentalists (who take the Bible literally) believe that the world was created "in place" about 6,000 years ago. All of the fossils were created in place as well (I've seen claims that it was done by God for whatever reason, I've also seen that the devil created them to fool people.)

This seems patently absurd to me, but the point is made that if God is who he is represented to be, he certainly could have done it that way. So it becomes an impossible point to argue. Still seems silly and myopically shortsighted, though.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


There are transitory fossil showing macro evolution. Try looking stuff up before you claim evidence.... makes you look bad.

www.talkorigins.org...

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

There are transitory fossil showing macro evolution. Try looking stuff up before you claim evidence.... makes you look bad.

www.talkorigins.org...

I'm hoping you meant to quote the guy claiming otherwise. I know full well there are transitory fossils that support all forms of evolution.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I did mean to quote ADjenson. Sorry mate!

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

I did mean to quote ADjenson. Sorry mate!

Why? I didn't say anything about macro evolution (which I believe in, by the way.) I think you're looking to quote someone else further back in the thread.

I have not read this whole thread through, i can't be bothered. But here's my 2 cent

It's okay to believe if what you believe is supported by signifigant evidence, tests, and logic. Believe is just a word anyways. I believe the earth is round because there's enough evidence supporting it. I believe in gravity for the same reasons. That's the difference between religious people and atheists. Religion is based on faith, so you don't really need any evidence to support what you believe in. I'm observing and altering my opinions according to the evidence. If there were signifigant enough evidence to support a god, i would believe in it.

Definition of "belief" from dictionary.com

(dictionary.reference.com...)

"belief [bih-leef]  
Example Sentences Origin
be·lief   [bih-leef] Show IPA
noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief."

Looking at #2 the words, "something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof". Because the burden of proof is on those who believe in the supernatural I think a lack of belief is not a belief in this case. But what does it really matter? If you want to call my lack of belief in any gods a belief go ahead...perhaps call it a negative belief?

Originally posted by acuna
Definition of "belief" from dictionary.com

(dictionary.reference.com...)

"belief [bih-leef]  
Example Sentences Origin
be·lief   [bih-leef] Show IPA
noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief."

Looking at #2 the words, "something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof". Because the burden of proof is on those who believe in the supernatural I think a lack of belief is not a belief in this case. But what does it really matter? If you want to call my lack of belief in any gods a belief go ahead...perhaps call it a negative belief?

You ignored # 1. You have a strong "conviction" that there is no such thing as a god of any kind, but you cannot know if that is fact or not. The best you could ever say is "To the best of my knowledge god doesn't exist."

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by Daniem

 

Your "bushmen" are not atheist because there is no basis for the term. Atheist are so called because of a view they hold on the unknowable.


Your "bushmen" would be free of the concept and labels that describe religious ort anti-religious thought..

I didn’t do anything remotely religious growing up, my parents/neighbours/relatives are all non-religious

I didn’t read the bible until I was about 20 years old and when I did it just looked like any other mythology to me – so if you like, I don’t have faith in bible god in the same way a Christian doesn’t have faith in Zeus or Odin - and that goes for all the other gods on offer in other religions


As far as I am concerned, the whole religion thing is a complete non-starter and reading religious people go on about their faith has the same level rationality as listening to a five year old talk about Santa


Therefore like the bushmen example, I am an atheist

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by acuna
Definition of "belief" from dictionary.com

(dictionary.reference.com...)

"belief [bih-leef]  
Example Sentences Origin
be·lief   [bih-leef] Show IPA
noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief."

Looking at #2 the words, "something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof". Because the burden of proof is on those who believe in the supernatural I think a lack of belief is not a belief in this case. But what does it really matter? If you want to call my lack of belief in any gods a belief go ahead...perhaps call it a negative belief?

You ignored # 1. You have a strong "conviction" that there is no such thing as a god of any kind, but you cannot know if that is fact or not. The best you could ever say is "To the best of my knowledge god doesn't exist."

Ok sure using #1 "something believed; an opinion or conviction" I do have an opinion that gods do not exist. But like I said earlier what does it really matter whether it's a belief or not. Call it opinion, conviction or whatever.

You can look at it as I lack a belief in gods or that I have a belief that gods do not exist. Either way it's pretty much the same and doesn't change what I believe in and what I don't.

reply to post by racasan

Piety is a reverence for the gods and was a necessary social behavior because if there were enough people of a pious nature within a community, then the gods would look favorably on that community , allowing it to prosper and not befall calamities and famines and wars and otherwise destruction to the community.
This is why something like desecrating a temple would get you killed because it would affect everyone else in the community because the offended god may wreck vengeance on it for allowing such a crime to go unpunished.
Today you don't have community gods so much since we have moved on to the concept of personal gods and what you believe has no effect on the next person as long as you do not infringe on his right to worship as he sees fit.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by racasan

 

Piety is a reverence for the gods and was a necessary social behavior because if there were enough people of a pious nature within a community, then the gods would look favorably on that community , allowing it to prosper and not befall calamities and famines and wars and otherwise destruction to the community.
This is why something like desecrating a temple would get you killed because it would affect everyone else in the community because the offended god may wreck vengeance on it for allowing such a crime to go unpunished.

ok

Today you don't have community gods so much since we have moved on to the concept of personal gods and what you believe has no effect on the next person as long as you do not infringe on his right to worship as he sees fit.

Well that’s good and I am fine with this idea – just one quibble I would have said spiritual path instead of god(s)


So how come Christians are hell bent on converting everybody to be just like them?
What’s so wrong with self-evolution and free-will, isn’t this constant badgering of non-believers just showing a lack of faith in their god?

And why is the idea that some people have looked at religious claims and found them not to be persuasive so shocking to the religious?

reply to post by racasan

So how come Christians are hell bent on converting everybody to be just like them?
What’s so wrong with self-evolution and free-will, isn’t this constant badgering of non-believers just showing a lack of faith in their god?

I think the original message to be given out by followers of Jesus was something like:

'Whatever was for a long time expected to happen, has happened, and it is not just for the benefit of certain specific people but is for everyone.'

Now it is maybe more like:

'In order for me to personally benefit from something I still expect to happen in the future, I have to have a certain degree of agreement from other people that this event will happen as I imagine.'

Look at it this way. Atheism didn't exist until the modern age. This was brought about by science as somethings that were once thought to be caused by God or gods were discovered to actually be caused by things in nature, like bacteria, or lightning. Most of the folks that begin that movement in the 1700's found that sometimes superstition often tied to religion or beliefs can be detrimental to their health and so they atheist movement began. It doesn;t mean that God doesn't exist, just the way they view him he does not.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Look at it this way. Atheism didn't exist until the modern age. This was brought about by science as somethings that were once thought to be caused by God or gods were discovered to actually be caused by things in nature, like bacteria, or lightning. Most of the folks that begin that movement in the 1700's found that sometimes superstition often tied to religion or beliefs can be detrimental to their health and so they atheist movement began. It doesn;t mean that God doesn't exist, just the way they view him he does not.

While atheism as a larger movement probably got a boost in modern times, I have to disagree that atheism started in the modern age. The view has been around probably as long as theism has been around. Look at Euripides (480–406 BCE), in his play Bellerophon, had the eponymous main character say: “Doth some one say that there be gods above? There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool, Led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.” Found at en.wikipedia.org... Check out the full article. More specifically the Presocratic philosophy and The Sophists. The rest of the article is pretty informative as well.