PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by adjensen

 

An atheist's non-faith is between him and God.

No, because an atheist does not believe in the existence of God so it is not between him and God. All you can say is that you believe that his non-belief is between him and the God you happen to believe in. You cannot state it as a fact.

There is reality, and there is belief. If the reality is God = Nothing (atheism) then my statement still stands, it's between the atheist and nothing. Meh, just a matter of semantics. Point is that belief does not shape reality, though reality can shape belief, and that we are ultimately responsible for our own choices.

reply to post by eight bits

Many atheists won't object. They welcome wannabes. They can use all the warm bodies they can get.

All the warm bodies they can get????? This is not an organised religion. Atheists do not gather in congregations and have collections to support the Pastor. Why on earth would they be interested in warm bodies.

Personally I could not care less what someone else believes, nor would I ever deny them the right to believe what they believe. If it so happened that I was the last atheist in the world would that matter? No, not to me, mainly because I believe I am right

reply to post by adjensen


Well, more on the semantics!

If the reality is God = Nothing (atheism)

Um, not really as there is no such thing as God (atheism) and therefore God=Nothing is an assignment that cannot exist since by assigning God to one side you are accepting that there may be a situation where God=[a value or something] (Agnostic)

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by eight bits

 

Many atheists won't object. They welcome wannabes. They can use all the warm bodies they can get.

All the warm bodies they can get????? This is not an organised religion. Atheists do not gather in congregations and have collections to support the Pastor. Why on earth would they be interested in warm bodies.

Sadly, too many people cannot think outside of their own box. They believe atheism a "belief" and often make the subsequent misconception that atheism is a religion. Some even classify it as a "belief system", also incorrect.

Some atheists even see atheism as a belief and although this seems a glaring logical error to me, if they choose to label it as such, well... so what.

Originally posted by -PLB-
Maybe we can agree to these definitions:

Convinced Atheist: Claiming to know that god(s) don't exist.
Believing Agnostic Atheist: Believing god(s) do not exist but not claiming it to be the truth.
Agnostic Atheist: Not believing god(s) exist but not claiming they don't exist.
Agnostic Theist: Believing god(s) exists but not claiming it to be the truth.
Convinced Theist: Claiming to know that god(s) exist.

The first and last one lack believe, but IMO are delusional positions. The second and forth both include believe. The third does not include believe. To make it clear, only the bold ones encompass believe.

If anyone disagrees, please state why.

I take umbrage with the statement that a Convicted Theist is delusional.

Both the "Convicted" positions require absolute statements, but the Theist doesn't need to rely on non-absolute observations to make their absolute statement. A single instance of proof for is all the believer needs to claim that they know God exists. They can't claim that they know everything about God, of course, and depending on their personal evidence, they may know precious little (not even which religion their experience relates to, for example,) but that's a wholly different claim.

Originally posted by adjensen
I take umbrage with the statement that a Convicted Theist is delusional.

Both the "Convicted" positions require absolute statements, but the Theist doesn't need to rely on non-absolute observations to make their absolute statement. A single instance of proof for is all the believer needs to claim that they know God exists. They can't claim that they know everything about God, of course, and depending on their personal evidence, they may know precious little (not even which religion their experience relates to, for example,) but that's a wholly different claim.

Yes I agree and I secretly changed it to "certain". Being convince still means you believe, it is just a very strong believe.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well, more on the semantics!

If the reality is God = Nothing (atheism)

Um, not really as there is no such thing as God (atheism) and therefore God=Nothing is an assignment that cannot exist since by assigning God to one side you are accepting that there may be a situation where God=[a value or something] (Agnostic)

Nope, the statement isn't an assignment, it's an evaluation.

int* god = null;

< interject reality, wherein God's existence is potentially assigned >

if (god == null)
atheismIsCorrect();
else
theismIsCorrect();

Maybe that clarifies it, lol.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by adjensen]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Some atheists even see atheism as a belief and although this seems a glaring logical error to me, if they choose to label it as such, well... so what.

Did you happen to just drop in at the end of this thread? This point has been well covered and I think it true to say that it is NOT a logical error.

May I respectfully suggest that you start at the beginning and take in all of the arguments?

reply to post by ChickenPie


I will ignore your personal insult

Maybe you can answer my second post on page 6?

reply to post by IamBoon
I read your OP.

I normally read a whole thread before posting anything, but I don't want to read multiple pages of senseless arguments.

You have a point, in that atheism is a belief.

No one has any proof for or against the existence of any god or afterlife.

So to say that there is no god or gods is based on the same evidence as those who proclaim that there is or are god/gods....NONE.

I view any arguments about it as useless as can be, like most philosophical endeavors, a hobby. A way to waste time if you have it to waste.

Edit to add: A point, look at the post immediately before mine. Fighting, insults, over what? Nothing that can be solved.



[edit on 30-7-2010 by butcherguy]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChickenPie
But believing and not believing both deal with believing. I can say I don't believe in the existence of unicorns, but that's still a belief in itself. The belief being unicorns don't exist.

Then following the same logic, not existing deals with existing, therefore non-existence is existence. This is patently absurd.

When you say you lack belief in the existence of God--you're actually saying you do not believe in the existence of God. To say you do not believe in the existence of God carries one of two of the following conclusions (assertions): one, God does not exist, or two, God probably doesn't exist. If your belief that God doesn't exist didn't carry one of these assertions with it, then why would you hold it? There were reasons and evidence that lead up to these conclusions (assertions), but the conclusions themselves are not the end. It wasn't until after the conclusions were reached that the person decided to shape their belief. Because you can come to the conclusion that God probably doesn't exist or even that He doesn't exist and still believe He does exist. In the case of atheism, the belief is either God probably doesn't exist or that He doesn't exist.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

Originally posted by PuterMan
You say it is 4 (decimal) and he says it is 11 (ternary? haven't worked that one out yet). It is of course just a label.

Ternary is also called trinary, base 3. Not the most common number base i must admit.

Originally posted by adjensen
Nope, the statement isn't an assignment, it's an evaluation.

int* god = null;

< interject reality, wherein God's existence is potentially assigned >

if (god == null)
atheismIsCorrect();
else
theismIsCorrect();

Maybe that clarifies it, lol.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by adjensen]

So translated to VB as I do not speak C# (or I try not to)

Dim god As Pointer(Of Integer) = Nothing

' < interject reality, wherein God's existence is potentially assigned >

If god Is Nothing Then
atheismIsCorrect()
Else
theismIsCorrect()
End If

The pointer however says that the object exists but that in the assignment we are giving it a value of nothing, i.e. we have not filled the pointer with an integer that 'points' to God.

In atheism such a pointer cannot exist as there is not God, therefore Dim God as Pointer(Of Integer) is an impossibility!

Edit: Sorry meant to say that you are assigning a pointer to God and not using (in basic)

If Exists(God) = True Then

Different thing.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by PuterMan
Did you happen to just drop in at the end of this thread? This point has been well covered and I think it true to say that it is NOT a logical error.

May I respectfully suggest that you start at the beginning and take in all of the arguments?

I have read some of the points (which are the same old arguments) and they're not convincing in any way. I don't so much care if an atheist chooses to view atheism as a "belief" but I am more concerned when theists insist it is since often much of their arguments rest on that concept.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

I am more concerned when theists insist it is since often much of their arguments rest on that concept.

OK, fair enough, but why should an Atheist care if a Theist considers atheism a belief?

reply to post by PuterMan

Not believing in the existence of something is the same as denying something exists

This is my whole point, it is not.

I don’t believe that aliens exist but I do not believe that they don’t. It is perfectly logical.

reply to post by eight bits


Regardless of how much you detest the fact, it is a fact that atheism means the lack of belief in a god or gods. You have presented nothing to suggest otherwise other than your own personal opinion; that’s not good enough.

Originally posted by ChickenPie

When you say you lack belief in the existence of God--you're actually saying you do not believe in the existence of God. To say you do not believe in the existence of God carries one of two of the following assertions: one, God does not exist, or two, God probably doesn't exist. If your belief that God doesn't exist didn't carry one of these assertions with it, then why would you hold it? There were reasons and evidence that lead up to one of those conclusions, but the conclusion itself is not the end. It wasn't until after the conclusion was reached that the person decided to shape their belief. Because you can come to the conclusion that God probably doesn't exist or even that He doesn't exist and still believe He does exist. but that doesn't necessarily mean you will believe he probably doesn't exist or that he doesn't exist. In the case of atheism, the belief is either God probably doesn't exist or he doesn't exist.

Right, as long as you remain locked into the concept of belief. There are other viewpoints in atheism: I can easily make the assertion that there is no proof of any deities therefore it's not worth considering. This is not a matter of belief. And since it's technically disbelief - the antonym of belief, it is therefore not belief. "Not A" does not equal "A", "not existing" does not mean "existing".

Nor for some people, in some circumstances, for some reasons, one's atheism may be a matter of belief. But a blanket statement that "atheism is a belief" is incorrect and much of the rationale presented here for insisting it is a belief is largely fallacious.

This is not an organised religion.

I suspect we can agree that atheism is not organized, lol.

Why on earth would they be interested in warm bodies.

I don't know. You'd have to ask them. I am not an atheist, and I am not any kind of atheist.

Atheists don't confide in me why they think word-lawyering agnostics into their fold is a good idea. It can only increase their numbers, though. If that isn't their intention, then they are going about things all the wrong way.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

I am more concerned when theists insist it is since often much of their arguments rest on that concept.

OK, fair enough, but why should an Atheist care if a Theist considers atheism a belief?

A couple of reasons. One, because it's not always correct and there are too many misconceptions about atheism already. Two, many arguments against atheism rely on the concept of it being a belief.

reply to post by Mike_A

I don’t believe that aliens exist but I do not believe that they don’t

As a programmer that seem to me to be a complete impossibility. If you do not believe that aliens exist how can you "not believe that they don't" unless you are saying of course NOT "believe that they don't" which means that they do and again is a complete contradiction of NOT "believe that they exist"

I think I shall take a cold shower - this is getting complicated!!!!