PLZ READ OP FIRST! The Atheist Delusion

Originally posted by ChickenPie
To be frank, I think you're just bull#ting to avoid the strong points I've made. You didn't even bother to rebut what I wrote. Instead, you decided to argue over the definition of atheist again.

If you want to define an atheist as someone who is without belief in God, then fine, but I don't see how that refutes the points I've made. One who is without belief in God must have had reached that point in some fashion, one reason being that the person is utterly ignorant. For example, babies are utterly ignorant, and if we're using the definition of atheist given by you, then all babies are atheists. But then there are also the educated and intelligent adults who are atheists by choice. Surely you can see the difference between a baby who is an atheist out of utter ignorance and a grown man who is an atheist because he feels it to be a logical stance? Regardless, the former realize the possibility of there being an entity who created everything; they then weigh that possibility against empirical evidence, logic, etc., and then they reach a final conclusion. Thus, my posts are for those who choose to be atheists.

Now that we understand each other... how does this not make sense to you?

Lack of empirical evidence can only bring you so far as to say that the probability of God existing is slim, but you cannot know God does not exist from that alone. So, if you don't know God does not exist, then that means you believe He doesn't exist.

Your argument is sound, but it can easily be used against you when applying a different religious framework from the one in which you currently believe...

Do you believe in Allah? If not, then you believe there is no Allah. Will you admit that you do not believe in Allah? If so, then disbelief in Allah is a belief in itself.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

I am an Atheist and strongly assert that is it a belief.

I admit Allah doesn't exist to me.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


You just cheated
I never included a 3rd option... Adding in variables is indeed important... its the variables that decide wether you'll be atheist (agnostic 3rd? ) or a theist..

The point I was trying to make is that everybody believes... even if its only belief in themselves...

reply to post by faceoff85

Hey have no concept of god. No basis for disbelief. No basis for Atheism.

But by definition they are atheists, just like babies and chairs. As long as something is not a theist, then it must be atheist.

If appearing in a book made a fact claim correct, then we'd all be Christians. Then again, we'd all be Scientologists, too. Hmm... this looking-things-up-in-books theory needs work.

Mike, back in grade school, dictionaries were touted as the place where you find out "what words mean." Like many things grown-ups tell children, that isn't entirely true.

Now that we are grown up, we know that a dictionary "definition" is a record of how people have used words. Period.

That record only sometimes includes the context where the use occurred, and may or may not make any attempt to distinguish among similar words. Therefore, a dictionary definition is a poor guide to usage.

An atheist is a person whose credal state is incompletely described by a lack of belief in any god. Similarly, an agnostic's credal state is incompletely described by the same lack. So, too, as another poster has mentioned, a baby's credal state can also be incompletely described by this lack.

If a speaker happened not to be interested in giving a full account of what some particular atheist believes, or spoke about how a particular atheist's beliefs differ from those of some, but not all, other people, then that speaker might use atheist only in the sense of "lacking belief in god."

Hypothetical example:

Bruce, a native speaker of English: "John didn't go to church today."

Emily, a lexicographer: "Why not?"

Bruce: "John is an atheist."

Emily: "What does that have to do with not going to church?"

Bruce: "Atheists don't believe in God."

Woohoo. Based on that exchange, it is permissible, by the professional standards and trade practices of lexicography, for Emily to include in a dictionary "definition" of atheist "someone who does not believe in God."

Why? Because Emily can attest that the word was used that way by a native speaker. It obviously does not follow, however, that atheist is an appropriate word to describe everybody who doesn't believe in God, and ludicrous to say that that is what atheist means.

Emily's dictionary entry will have served its purpose if it ever helps me to understand some particular writer's or speaker's intention.

"Ah," I think, "so this speaker didn't care what atheists believe, but was happy to cite any aspect of an atheist's credal state that would answer the specific question that he was asked."

That furnishes no reason, however, for me to repeat that speaker's usage in a context different from the original context.

In any case, I am an agnostic. I am not an atheist. I am not any kind of atheist.



[edit on 30-7-2010 by eight bits]

Originally posted by faceoff85
You just cheated

I never included a 3rd option... Adding in variables is indeed important... its the variables that decide wether you'll be atheist (agnostic 3rd?

) or a theist..

The point I was trying to make is that everybody believes... even if its only belief in themselves...

I'm not a cheater - or don't want to be one at least. Can you give us the variables that are put forth to these scientists in the experiment?

I see what you are saying. But you fail to realise that with this criteria you are unwillingly a disbeliever in a billion+ concepts. You believe in the disbelief of a billion+ ideas. What makes this idea of God or no God so worthy of attention?

reply to post by ChickenPie


atheism.about.com...

No applause given

When I was a young man I rejected the viewpoint of the established religions and became an atheist. My father was a priest. People often say that the opposite of believing in God is believing in Satan, but that is not so. As far as I am concerned Satan is all wrapped up in the God believe side of things.

The opposite of believing in God is believing in NOT God, or that there is no God, and yes that IS a belief. Does that deny the existence of God? No it does not.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Do you believe in Allah? If not, then you believe there is no Allah. Will you admit that you do not believe in Allah? If so, then disbelief in Allah is a belief in itself.

[edit on 30/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Allah is Arabic for God... and I believe in God, so I guess I believe in Allah. However, Allah is typically associated with the Islamic God, which I may not believe in.

I see your point though and I have no problem with people using my own rationale against me. It wouldn't bother me at all if somebody said, "You don't believe in Zeus!?" That's right, I don't believe Zeus exists, but I don't *know* Zeus does not exist.

Originally posted by IamBoon
I am an Atheist and strongly assert that is it a belief.

I admit Allah doesn't exist to me.

I'd strongly assert otherwise.

Disbelief does not equal belief.

"Doesn't exist" does not equal "exist".

"Not A" does not equal "A".

But if you want to hold your disbelief as a belief then ultimately it matters little to me. Rock on

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

atheism.about.com...

No applause given

You expect me to follow that hyperlink, read the contents of the website it brings me to, and figure out for you what your point is?

No thanks.

Why don't you just tell me what your point is...? If you have one that is.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

Exactly man. It is such a simple concept that I am amazed anyone can remain ignorant to it.

And what is funnier , is that the "rational , logical and evidence based "Atheists are showing the validity of the first point I made in the OP! LMAO!

Using your rationale everyone must have beliefs in a multitude of things that they haven't even crossed their mind. Using that logic you have:

- A belief in the non existance of a pasta deity
- A belief in the non existance of crumpquarters
- A belief in the non existance of steel glass
- A belief in the non existance of leprechauns
- A belief in the non existance of creosote powered hat stands
- A belief in the non existance of...
and so on ad infinitum

So you are basically saying everyone has an infinite number of beliefs although the theists infinite belief set will be larger than the atheists.

Otherwise I agree with you on points 1 and 3

reply to post by ChickenPie


How can you not believe in the 'Islamic' God if you are a Christian or a Jew. The God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims is one and the same.

Both Christianity and Islam came from Judaism originally.

To say that you do not believe in the Islamic God is akin to saying as a Methodist (for example) that you do not believe in the God of the Roman Catholics.

Originally posted by LightFantastic
So you are basically saying everyone has an infinite number of beliefs although the theists infinite belief set will be larger than the atheists.

So? Is that bad?

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

How can you not believe in the 'Islamic' God if you are a Christian or a Jew. The God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims is one and the same.

Who said I was a Jew, Muslim, or a Christian? I'm neither of the three. I was never even baptized. In fact, I've never stepped foot in a church except for funerals.

Originally posted by ChickenPie

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

atheism.about.com...

No applause given

You expect me to follow that hyperlink, read the contents of the website it brings me to, and figure out for you what your point is?

No thanks.

Why don't you just tell me what your point is...? If you have one that is.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

I beg your pardon? I thought I made my point. The link was just a reference, and if you did not go to it and read it how can you reject it? Ah, you saw the word atheism and immediately rejected it without any reflection, where as the site is About.com and is answering the question on the difference between atheists and agnostics from their point of view. Still I suppose if you have no wish to learn you cannot be forced to.

Originally posted by ChickenPie

So? Is that bad?

I makes the term "believe" meaningless, as everything becomes a believe. But still it is used to attack atheists. "You also believe so your position is as weak as mine", and that is a straw man.

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by ChickenPie

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

atheism.about.com...

No applause given

You expect me to follow that hyperlink, read the contents of the website it brings me to, and figure out for you what your point is?

No thanks.

Why don't you just tell me what your point is...? If you have one that is.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChickenPie]

I beg your pardon? I thought I made my point. The link was just a reference, and if you did not go to it and read it how can you reject it? Ah, you saw the word atheism and immediately rejected it without any reflection, where as the site is About.com and is answering the question on the difference between atheists and agnostics from their point of view. Still I suppose if you have no wish to learn you cannot be forced to.

You made your point by providing a hyperlink?

I know the difference between atheism and agnosticism... Thanks though.

Originally posted by ChickenPie

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

How can you not believe in the 'Islamic' God if you are a Christian or a Jew. The God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims is one and the same.

Who said I was a Jew, Muslim, or a Christian? I'm neither of the three. I was never even baptized. In fact, I've never stepped foot in a church except for funerals.

Consistency is not exactly one of your strong points is it?

You said

and I believe in God, so I guess I believe in Allah. However, Allah is typically associated with the Islamic God, which I may not believe in.

Now if the God that you believe in is not God in the accepted sense that were are talking about then perhaps you should state which God it is that you believe in? Having said that you believe in God, so you guess you believe in Allah, then I do not think that my assumption was unreasonable.

Originally posted by ChickenPie

Originally posted by LightFantastic
So you are basically saying everyone has an infinite number of beliefs although the theists infinite belief set will be larger than the atheists.

So? Is that bad?

Well as a belief is something you remember otherwise you couldnt believe in it, then an infinite number of beliefs in the non existance of something is impossible, therefore they cant be classed as beliefs.

Now that was a well structured sentence lol.

reply to post by ChickenPie


I said amongst other things

The opposite of believing in God is believing in NOT God, or that there is no God, and yes that IS a belief. Does that deny the existence of God? No it does not.

Perhaps you had better re-read my post.

[Edit] I am wondering if we are talking at cross purposes here. I have a real problem with my mouse. I can click on something but in the split second I click the cursor has moved. This happened on that post so you may have seen the post before I completed what I wanted to say. If that is the case then our 'contretemps' is not necessary!

Peace

[edit on 30/7/2010 by PuterMan]